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-   -   A-Rod Talk (can't find old thread) (http://www.blowoutcards.com/forums/baseball/1728-rod-talk-cant-find-old-thread.html)

thekramers5 10-12-2007 05:18 PM

A-Rod Talk (can't find old thread)
 
I'm definitely going to draw some hatred, but so be it...I've been a lightning rod before!!!

If you "know" baseball and you don't want A-Rod on your team - you're a freaking idiot!!! Or, you dislike the Yankees or A-Rod personally because of how much he makes (no problem with that - but if you're going to blast him, bring a good argument).

There is NOT ONE BETTER PLAYER in baseball that single-handedly can help a team make the playoffs more than A-Rod - nobody even close. please, Please, PLEASE name that player if you think you know him (or HER, since you're obviously fantasizing!!!)!!!

Anyway, he has "tanked" in the playoffs in recent years - no doubt. But, what if you don't make the playoffs - geez, you could be the Pirates, Rangers, Devil Rays, etc. In ALL 3 other sports, the "hands-down" best player WILL easily get his team in the playoffs (BB - any position, Hockey - any position, and FB - always a QB or RB). In baseball, if you know anything about the sport, the absolute best player in the game during any year "needs help".

Believe me, I saw the year A-Rod won the MVP here in Texas - never seen a better year wasted on a horrible team in my life. The local media - "he didn't help us win" - morons who have probably never played competitive sports of any kind and/or don't understand the fundamentals of baseball. Good recent example - early game this year against Boston and A-Rod hits two home runs (one ties the game and the other puts the Yankees ahead). Yankees ultimately lose - local media notes he hits two "meaningless HRs in a loss". IDIOTS!!!

WHAT IF everybody else on the Yankees don't suck this year (besides Posada) and Yankees get home-field advantage against the soft Angels...and the Sox are away at Cleveland. Circumstances could be different? Not A-Rod's fault the team was horrible for the most part besides him. There was a comment about A-Rod having pitches to hit - he didn't get anything worthwhile - when it was meaningful, that is. That team did NOT hit around him this year, period.

That, and that alone is why I love baseball - you play 162 games a year (GREAT for a nut like me) - yet it comes down to who is hot at the right time. Are the Rockies the best team in the majors? He!! no - probably not even in the top 10 - but after 162 games, they did just enough to make a run. BRILLIANT!!!

As an aside, I DO NOT like the Yankees or Red Sox - I do like A-Rod and Manny Ramirez...and that is it.

Bring on the wrath - in the words of Coach Gundy - "I'm a man, I'm 40 years old (actually 41)".

TK

Tim 10-12-2007 05:24 PM

Well where I disagree with you is your contention that Arod can single-handedly help a team win. You even mentioned Texas yourself, which disproves that theory. If you put AROD on the Pirates, Reds or any other awful team, it would make NO difference. NONE. Those teams would not make the playoffs anyway. In fact, I would argue that the best hitting team in all of bb -- say Boston, NY or Cleve -- would not make the playoffs with Cincy's pitching staff.

Furthermore, I would MUCH rather have a solid player who performs well in the postseason (of which there are many), than a coddled superstar who chokes year in and year out when it really counts.

mwheeler27 10-12-2007 05:46 PM

I really, really want to type a HUGE post here, but I won't. All I want to say is:

[SIZE="4"]I know for a fact that Arod can SINGLE HANDEDLY "HELP" A TEAM WIN.[/SIZE] He can also single handedly help his team NOT win. Anyone who thinks otherwise got up on the wrong side of the bed today. ;)

swerve 10-12-2007 06:17 PM

<< Raises hand and says he will take Pujols over Arod every day of the week and twice on Sunday. :flex: (Makes a lot less money and would be just as productive, if not more so, in that lineup)

thekramers5 10-12-2007 06:19 PM

Woo-hoo!! Just what I was hoping on a Friday!!! Sorry, but the topics on the board have been way too lame and soft recently.

Thanks - you have both supported my argument:

[B]"In ALL 3 other sports, the "hands-down" best player WILL easily get his team in the playoffs (BB - any position, Hockey - any position, and FB - always a QB or RB). In baseball, if you know anything about the sport, the absolute best player in the game during any year "needs help". "[/B]

That is, in baseball, Ernie Banks could not help the Cubs get to the playoffs - Babe Ruth would not help a team in today's MLB scenario make the playoffs without the right supporting cast. We all agree.

What does A-Rod do to NOT help his team win? Hit 50+ homers? Drive in 120+ runs? Play gold-glove defense? Put 31 other 3B on the Yankees this year - do they make the playoffs? No chance.

I'm sorry, I'm just looking for a real argument against him and I've never heard it. I understand the playoff performance - THIS IS NOT ABOUT THAT. I'm looking for the guy to take me to the playoffs. Believe me, I saw first-hand how one player CANNOT carry a team through a playoff series - Juan Gonzalez in the 1998 playoff series against the Yankees. One of the greatest playoff performances I've seen in my life - but, sorry - have a nice flight home.

Go ask 100 [B][SIZE="6"]NON-BIASED[/SIZE][/B] baseball experts if they could start a team right now (i.e., non-Red Sox fans, non-Yankee haters) - good ol' regular baseball fans - who is the one person they would choose to start a team if salary is not an issue - sorry, but it is A-Rod. I play softball with 11 guys and work with 7 other BIG-TIME baseball fans, and 16 out of 18 say A-Rod is that player, hands-down (best hitter in baseball and best SS in MLB, even though he plays 3B). Believe me, my softball buddies would disagree just to have a good argument...

Again, please let me know who the player is you would choose to start your team - assuming $ is not a factor! It's easy to bash A-Rod...everybody does it. Let me know who is the better all-around player!

mwheeler27 10-12-2007 06:27 PM

Just for the record, I'm completely agreeing with you TK5. I wanted my post to portray that, but maybe it didn't. I would want to build a team around Arod without question.

Even though it was only one post-season home run in a couple of years, and only one RBI in a couple of years in the playoffs, I enjoyed every bit of it the other night. Thought it was great. And if anyone thinks Arod choked this year, they would also have to say every other Yankee starter choked as well, besides Cano and Damon, because they were the ONLY 2 to have a better BA than Arod.

thekramers5 10-12-2007 06:28 PM

[QUOTE=swerve;10089]<< Raises hand and says he will take Pujols over Arod every day of the week and twice on Sunday. :flex: (Makes a lot less money and would be just as productive, if not more so, in that lineup)[/QUOTE]

Hey - I LOVE Pujols and he's #2 on my list. But he plays a position where you're supposed to bash the ball. AND - this is not about the money. It's about a combination of offense and defense (which is why he beat out Ortiz in the MVP race a couple years ago).

pac213up 10-12-2007 06:51 PM

I would believe the REAL EXPERTS would probably pick a young dominant pitcher to start their team with. Every REAL expert knows that great pitching is much harder to come by. If we are talking positional players then sure ARod would have to be up there.

Tim 10-12-2007 07:16 PM

I am completely indifferent regarding the Yankees and Red Sox. I am a Reds fan. If you eliminate pitchers, I would take Pujols to start my team because like it or not, you can't just NOT count the postseason. That's as silly as saying, "If you don't count the interceptions that Romo threw last Monday, he had a GREAT game!"

frozenntimesports 10-12-2007 08:54 PM

OK, here comes the bomb... follow me before you roast me, OK.

I would start a team, right now, to compete for the long term, with Robinson Cano.

If you look at it, 2nd base is the hardest place to get offensive production while 3B has a ton of offense right now (Zimmerman, A-Rod, Wright, Ramirez...).

In Robbie you get a 23 year old who will average .300-.320 in an average year and probably peak at .340-.360. (Tony Gwynn says he thinks he'll win a few batting titles). Cano is also a good fielder, so its not like there is a cast iron glove there.

Then I worry about outfield, because there isn't as much offense in the outfield as you would think (anyone who did fantasy baseball this year should notice this).

Is A-Rod the best player in baseball... yup. Maybe by a couple of touchdowns. Could you sign Ryan Zimmerman and get a player who will put up similar numbers? Yes.

Is Robbie the best 2B in baseball... I think probably. You can argue Utley, but he plays in a band-box and hits in the weaker NL.

Now you do the math. This is my best guestimation of what the two players would do in equal stadiums (Shea Stadium)/conditions.

A-Rod .320, 41 HR, 120 RBI, .405 OBP, .550 SLG, .955 OPS Age: 33
Zimmerman .315, 28 HR, 115 RBI, .369 OBP, .490 SLG, .859 OPS Age: 23

The difference in OPS is significant, but as A-Rod ages Zimmerman will close the gap, players peak between 27-28 usually, so you can expect A-Rod's stats to downtick slowly. I would have to believe this is A-Rod's career year while Zimmerman is getting better with his plate discipline and is 4 years away from his prime.


Cano .330, 20 HR, 97 RBI, .370 OBP, .502 SLG, .872 OPS Age: 25
Utley .297, 25 HR, 104 RBI, .360 OBP, .520 SLG, .880 OPS Age: 30

Utley gets the edge slightly because of the additional thunder he has in his bats, and his RBI total is the result of batting higher in the batting order. Put Cano in the 3-hole (bad idea, that flopped miserably this year) and he probably knocks in 120. The important thing to note is that this is the last year Utley edges Cano, and it is ever so slight, the drop from Utley to the 3rd best 2B in the league is much further than the drop from Zimmerman to the 3rd best 3B in the league, David Wright (or a few other guys).


If you want to win, don't put all your eggs in one basket. Go for where quantity is limited. If you have A-Rod and Jeter and bunch of sub-par offensive players in the outfield (see: NY Yankees April & May), you are going to lose an awful lot of games regardless of how many bombs A-Rod hits.

Now as for the Yankees, they can do whatever their checkbook lets them, so they don't play with the same rules as the rest of MLB, so they can and should sign A-Rod, and then make deals to sure up their bullpen.


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