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Old 08-17-2012, 01:31 PM   #51 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by whywhy View Post
and if you watched trout every day you would realize that players like him don't come around too often
Harper, Adam Jones, Cutch all have similar atributes to trout
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Old 08-17-2012, 01:34 PM   #52 (permalink)
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Miguel Cabrera is the best proven hitter in the game. He's been putting up the numbers consistently for nearly 10 years. I truly hope he wins the triple crown this year. All I'm going to say is that I hope he wins the MVP, because I think he deserves to win. Come back in 10 years and tell me how special Trout is. He will probably continue to live up to expectations, but if you watched Cabrera every day you would realize that players like him don't come around too often.
I agree that Cabrera's numbers are machine-like. There is no better bet to put up a .300/30/100 season and there is absolutely something to be said for that.

That said, Trout's season is truly unprecedented. What Cabrera has done the past 10 years doesn't matter because we are only talking about a brief window of time that lasts between April 2012 and September 2012. Trout could very well flame out next year (I don't expect him to) and he's got a long way to go before we can tag him as durable as Cabrera, but the state of these players in 10 years will have no bearing on the writers when they cast their votes this fall.
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Old 08-17-2012, 01:34 PM   #53 (permalink)
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Don't forget about Vernon Wells. His suckiness, err... injury helped paved the way for Trout.

Vernon Wells for MVP!
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Old 08-17-2012, 01:41 PM   #54 (permalink)
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Don't forget about Vernon Wells. His suckiness, err... injury helped paved the way for Trout.

Vernon Wells for MVP!
Gosh...remember all the Angels outfield problems early this season? The sad thing is we're probably not even having this discussion if everything went according to Scioscia's plan LOL
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Old 08-17-2012, 01:42 PM   #55 (permalink)
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That's a clown question, bro...I'm not 19
i dont believe you
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Old 08-17-2012, 01:42 PM   #56 (permalink)
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Harper, Adam Jones, Cutch all have similar atributes to trout
Well, one of those guys is 19, one of those guys is likely this year's National League MVP, and one of those guys is...decidedly...not very Trout-like
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Old 08-17-2012, 01:43 PM   #57 (permalink)
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I agree that Cabrera's numbers are machine-like. There is no better bet to put up a .300/30/100 season and there is absolutely something to be said for that.

That said, Trout's season is truly unprecedented. What Cabrera has done the past 10 years doesn't matter because we are only talking about a brief window of time that lasts between April 2012 and September 2012. Trout could very well flame out next year (I don't expect him to) and he's got a long way to go before we can tag him as durable as Cabrera, but the state of these players in 10 years will have no bearing on the writers when they cast their votes this fall.
Albert Pujols says hi
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Old 08-17-2012, 01:46 PM   #58 (permalink)
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Albert Pujols says hi
Hi Albert. Please allow me to eat my words.

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Old 08-17-2012, 01:52 PM   #59 (permalink)
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Oh my, that is a terrible article. I usually don't click bleacherreport since it's #@#@#@#@ but considering the number of pages this thread is at...
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Old 08-17-2012, 02:01 PM   #60 (permalink)
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OP gives knowledgeable Detroit fans everywhere a bad name. I am going to imagine you are 13, so I feel like there is justification for your sports homer ignorance.

Last edited by iluvfish2; 08-17-2012 at 05:08 PM. Reason: no name calling or insults - fine by me
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Old 08-17-2012, 02:44 PM   #61 (permalink)
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well last week or so when this same argument was happening Trout was sitting at .348 and Miggy at .321 or so....now it is .340 to .327....he cut it in half in a week....like i said in that thread i think if Miggy passes him and wins the batting crown(along with RBI and maybe HR) then he should win easily...and i do get annoyed with all the WAR fanboys....if that is all that matters which is all i ever see then why do we even keep track of other stats...i mean geez guys...its the MVP, you guys really think that almost all of the voters are gonna use regular old stats and then as maybe a tie breaker they resort to WAR and all the other 3-letter stats....

long story short, Trout is amazing....Miggy is amazing...i say it ends up goin to 1. team that makes playoffs, 2. batting title winner, 3. if miggy wins trip crown he is a shoe in...

odds are trout wins, but i could also see alot of writers vote for miggy or cano just cuz they dont want to vote for a 20yr old kid...

still 40gms left tho!!! ton of time...if trout ends up at like .328 and miggy .335 with 135rbi...miggy will win...just my guess...
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Old 08-17-2012, 02:59 PM   #62 (permalink)
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well last week or so when this same argument was happening Trout was sitting at .348 and Miggy at .321 or so....now it is .340 to .327....he cut it in half in a week....like i said in that thread i think if Miggy passes him and wins the batting crown(along with RBI and maybe HR) then he should win easily...and i do get annoyed with all the WAR fanboys....if that is all that matters which is all i ever see then why do we even keep track of other stats...i mean geez guys...its the MVP, you guys really think that almost all of the voters are gonna use regular old stats and then as maybe a tie breaker they resort to WAR and all the other 3-letter stats....

long story short, Trout is amazing....Miggy is amazing...i say it ends up goin to 1. team that makes playoffs, 2. batting title winner, 3. if miggy wins trip crown he is a shoe in...

odds are trout wins, but i could also see alot of writers vote for miggy or cano just cuz they dont want to vote for a 20yr old kid...

still 40gms left tho!!! ton of time...if trout ends up at like .328 and miggy .335 with 135rbi...miggy will win...just my guess...
The fact that you're two big points are batting average and RBI's and that most voters discredit WAR and other more reliable stats is laughable.
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Old 08-17-2012, 03:27 PM   #63 (permalink)
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Detroit fans are the worst
Ummm......I really don't think we're all that bad...
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Old 08-17-2012, 03:34 PM   #64 (permalink)
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still 40gms left tho!!! ton of time...if trout ends up at like .328 and miggy .335 with 135rbi...miggy will win...just my guess...
If one makes the playoffs and the other doesn't, the winner will be the guy whose team goes to the playoffs.

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Old 08-17-2012, 03:51 PM   #65 (permalink)
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The fact that you're two big points are batting average and RBI's and that most voters discredit WAR and other more reliable stats is laughable.


those arent my points...im saying that is how voters still gauge it...me or you do not know voters...just cuz you like all the new ways to show stats and new stats/methods...does not mean that they use these above all else like people seem to think....

im guessing that majority of writers that get an MVP vote do not like all the new stats and stuff and are still majorly looking at avg/rbi/hr/runs/obp/slug....then maybe they look at WAR and all the other stuff...and if the team makes the playoffs or not...if WAR was all that mattered then there would not need to be a vote since we would know the winner right away by that stat alone...

and yea i do think if miggy catches trout in AVG(and ends up with 135rbi) than ppl will look it as "well miggy did it all yr and trout faded down the stretch" which will be even more notable if the halos miss the playoffs....

i always find these threads so confusing tho....how can I be wrong? Or how can you be wrong? arent these just our opinions?? u weigh WAR ahead of all else...i dont...that is my choice and opinion to do so...
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Old 08-17-2012, 05:06 PM   #66 (permalink)
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OP gives knowledgeable Detroit fans everywhere a bad name. I am going to imagine you are 13, so I feel like there is justification for your sports homer ignorance.
This. I've only been here a week and everything I've seen this guy say that actually involves the sport is just turrible.

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Old 08-17-2012, 05:07 PM   #67 (permalink)
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Old 08-17-2012, 07:25 PM   #68 (permalink)
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Miggy just went yard again. Did his WAR just go up?
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Old 08-17-2012, 08:30 PM   #69 (permalink)
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Miggy just went yard again. Did his WAR just go up?
Not 2 points.

To put that in perspective, guys that can provide +2 WAR (the difference between Trout and Miggy) get huge multi-year contracts. Trout's providing Miggy's value PLUS the value of another semi-star caliber player.

It may well get closer before the end of the year, but it sure as hell isn't very close right now.
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Old 08-17-2012, 08:42 PM   #70 (permalink)
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Not 2 points.

To put that in perspective, guys that can provide +2 WAR (the difference between Trout and Miggy) get huge multi-year contracts. Trout's providing Miggy's value PLUS the value of another semi-star caliber player.

It may well get closer before the end of the year, but it sure as hell isn't very close right now.
I was being sarcastic for the sake of all those that seem to worship WAR in this thread. My point for those who think Trout is the runaway favorite is that Miggy is already making it much closer everyday.
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Old 08-17-2012, 08:48 PM   #71 (permalink)
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I was being sarcastic for the sake of all those that seem to worship WAR in this thread. My point for those who think Trout is the runaway favorite is that Miggy is already making it much closer everyday.
It's not worship so much as recognition of a stat that pretty clearly shows the complete value a player provides to his team. It's not perfect, but it's pretty darn good.
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Old 08-17-2012, 09:22 PM   #72 (permalink)
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I think most people who follow sabermetrics would be the first to admit that WAR is far from being a perfect stat. That being said, despite it's flaws it's a pretty good measure of a players contribution to a team and their value. Not only is it pretty good, it's infinitely better than using context dependent stats such as RBI's, SB, BA, etc that don't actually mean anything. People who are making MVP arguments based solely on offensive numbers is pointless. Just because defense isn't glorified like offensive doesn't mean it's not important. So, if you can quantify both offensive & defensive performance in an objective way, why wouldn't you? It simply doesn't make any sense to not. Because the reality is that someone who makes offensive contributions & defensive contributions is a more valuable player than someone who just does one of them (i.e. Miguel Cabrera). Not to mention, simply talking about offensive numbers is pointless, because offensive numbers across positions are not equal. Keith Law & Eric Karabell were talking about it on Tuesday's Baseball Today Podcast.
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Old 08-17-2012, 09:45 PM   #73 (permalink)
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Let me guess you think Trout or Mauer are the best hitters, Cabrera is top 5 in every offensive category
What about steals?
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Old 08-17-2012, 09:56 PM   #74 (permalink)
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WAR and QBR...my head hurts.

Would just like to add that Cabrera is only about 10 points under trout in BA right now. Just sayin.'

Neither is a lock right now, IMO...Trout trumps cabrera in defense, but cabrera is putting up some incredible power and average numbers right now. Will be interesting to see where they both end up at the end of the year.
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Old 08-17-2012, 10:35 PM   #75 (permalink)
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Miggy just went yard again. Did his WAR just go up?
Trout just hit a triple. Dib hiz wore go up?
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