NL CY YOUNG - Page 3

maxe0213 · 08-19-2012, 01:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ryan T.

Run support doesn't matter unless you're using the horrible "Wins" metric to try and determine how good a pitcher is. Which you shouldn't be. So run support doesn't matter.

Man this guy

Ryan T. · 08-19-2012, 01:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by maxe0213

That would be awesome. I think Burnett is having an outstanding year.

Apparently we still have people that can't get over the fact there team sucks and doesn't deserve an award for not being great. You shouldn't win awards for being good on a #@#@#@#@ team.

Keep getting all your baseball news form Baseball Tonight and John Kruk buddy. It seems to be working out really well for you.

Ryan T. · 08-19-2012, 01:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by maxe0213

Man this guy

Wins are dumb. Again, you're making a player responsible for the success or failure of his teammates, of which he has no control.

maxe0213 · 08-19-2012, 01:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ryan T.

Keep getting all your baseball news form Baseball Tonight and John Kruk buddy. It seems to be working out really well for you.

I'm sorry your team has been playing like S*** this year. Its not our fault man. Dickey is having a good season and is impressing a lot of people. However no matter how you put it he just doesnt deserve the award.

katieneack · 08-19-2012, 01:42 PM

Cueto is pitching in one of the best (if not the best) hitters parks in the entire league. Dickey is pitching in a pitchers park. Yet his ERA is still almost half a run lower. Dickey has had a great year,and things could change, but Cueto has to be the leader right now.

BAMBAM · 08-19-2012, 01:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ryan T.

Run support doesn't matter unless you're using the horrible "Wins" metric to try and determine how good a pitcher is. Which you shouldn't be. So run support doesn't matter.

Actually run support does matter if the two players other numbers are similar which in this case they are.

maxe0213 · 08-19-2012, 01:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ryan T.

Wins are dumb. Again, you're making a player responsible for the success or failure of his teammates, of which he has no control.

Never said wins were a good stat? lol there ya go assuming things.

Ryan T. · 08-19-2012, 01:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BAMBAM

Actually run support does matter if the two players other numbers are similar which in this case they are.

Only if you're making your decisions based upon bad metrics.

maffman15 · 08-19-2012, 01:43 PM

Did everybody forget about Cole Hamels?

14 Wins, 2.94 ERA, 171.1 IP, 168 Ks, .235 AVG, 1.11 WHIP

All in 24 Games compared to Cueto and Dickeys 25

Metsfan1121 · 08-19-2012, 01:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by maxe0213

How can you be considered a valuable player when you can't help your team to the playoffs. That is a very strong argument and is used by most voters unless the play has an unbelievable season. (Which Dickey is having a very good season but not unbelievable.)

Only 3 of the last 10 cy young winners have made the playoffs the year they won.

BAMBAM · 08-19-2012, 01:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ryan T.

Only if you're making your decisions based upon bad metrics.

No, only in your mind since it doesn't favor your choice.

Ryan T. · 08-19-2012, 01:46 PM

Also, for all the GABP vs. Citi arguments; WAR is park neutral.

Cueto pitching in GABP is probably the reason he is ahead in WAR right now, and he should get credit for that.

Ryan T. · 08-19-2012, 01:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BAMBAM

No, only in your mind since it doesn't favor your choice.

The only thing run support affects are wins. Wins are not a good metric of how good a season a pitcher is having. This is pretty widely accepted, even upon "non-stats" folks.

maxe0213 · 08-19-2012, 01:48 PM

Okay.

Dickey: 15-4 2.89 ERA, 16HRs Allowed, 1.04 WHIP Team is 57-63 17 GB First Place (Pitchers ballpark)
Cueto: 16-6 2.44 ERA, 9HRs Allowed, 1.13 WHIP Team is 73-48 First Place (Hitters Ballpark)

I'll take Cueto all day.

btimm · 08-19-2012, 01:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by maxe0213

That would be awesome. I think Burnett is having an outstanding year.

Apparently we still have people that can't get over the fact there team sucks and doesn't deserve an award for not being great. You shouldn't win awards for being good on a #@#@#@#@ team.

After reading your posts, I feel as if I lose at least a little of my intelligence.

katieneack · 08-19-2012, 01:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by maxe0213

Okay.

Dickey: 15-4 2.89 ERA, 16HRs Allowed, 1.04 WHIP Team is 57-63 17 GB First Place (Pitchers ballpark)
Cueto: 16-6 2.44 ERA, 9HRs Allowed, 1.13 WHIP Team is 73-48 First Place (Hitters Ballpark)

I'll take Cueto all day.

That's hard to argue against if you are being objective.

Ryan T. · 08-19-2012, 01:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by maxe0213

Okay.

Dickey: 15-4 2.89 ERA, 16HRs Allowed, 1.04 WHIP Team is 57-63 17 GB First Place (Pitchers ballpark)
Cueto: 16-6 2.44 ERA, 9HRs Allowed, 1.13 WHIP Team is 73-48 First Place (Hitters Ballpark)

I'll take Cueto all day.

I don't have any fault with your argument, it's how you're making it.

Dickey: 2.89ERA, 3.09 xFIP, 4.3 WAR, 9.36 K/9, 2.03 BB/9
Cueto: 2.44ERA, 3.63 xFIP, 3.9 WAR, 7.16 K/9, 1.96 BB/9

They're having very close seasons. Right now objectively I'd give a slight edge to Cueto, although again, it's very close.

And it has nothing to do with how good their teammates are, or how likely they are to make the playoffs.

BAMBAM · 08-19-2012, 01:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ryan T.

The only thing run support affects are wins. Wins are not a good metric of how good a season a pitcher is having. This is pretty widely accepted, even upon "non-stats" folks.

Nobody said that wins are, however when players' more meaningful stats like era, whip and baa are so similar run support is a big factor. We're not talking Jamie Moyer winning 15 games with a 5+ era while getting 7.5 runs a game in support here.

maxe0213 · 08-19-2012, 01:53 PM

Did you look at Dickeys Home/Away Stats?

Home: ERA 2.66 Avg. .201 slg. .334
Away: ERA 3.10 AVG. .235 Slg .384

Dickey gets plenty of home help by that ballpark.

Ryan T. · 08-19-2012, 01:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BAMBAM

Nobody said that wins are, however when players' more meaningful stats like era, whip and baa are so similar run support is a big factor. We're not talking Jamie Moyer winning 15 games with a 5+ era while getting 7.5 runs a game in support here.

There are plenty of other meaningful stats to long at, that don't rely on things like run support, how good your teammates are, etc.

xbignick · 08-19-2012, 01:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cruiserdaddy7

As i made a thread before on this it will be:
Johnny Cueto or Aroldis Chapman. People thinking Dickey are waaayyyy off. Numbers arent close to Cueto

Yes he does.

Dickey: 168.1 IP, 2.89 ERA, 3.05 FIP, 3.09 xFIP, 3.17 tERA, 2.99 SIERA, 9.36 K/9, 2.03 BB/9, 3.9 fWAR.

Johnny Cueto: 169.2, 2.44 ERA, 3.04 FIP, 3.63 xFIP, 3.72 tERA, 3.60 SIERA, 7.16 K/9, 1.96 BB/9, 4.3 fWAR.

I typically like a mix, including SIERA because of how it's calculated, but even if you don't it's a one good game/one bad game swing and there's an inefficiency in measuring knuckleballers properly.

maxe0213 · 08-19-2012, 01:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ryan T.

I don't have any fault with your argument, it's how you're making it.

Dickey: 2.89ERA, 3.09 xFIP, 4.3 WAR, 9.36 K/9, 2.03 BB/9
Cueto: 2.44ERA, 3.63 xFIP, 3.9 WAR, 7.16 K/9, 1.96 BB/9

They're having very close seasons. Right now objectively I'd give a slight edge to Cueto, although again, it's very close.

And it has nothing to do with how good their teammates are, or how likely they are to make the playoffs.

Wait so you say Cueto has an edge? Why are you even arguing then if your arguing and agreeing...

Ryan T. · 08-19-2012, 01:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by maxe0213

Did you look at Dickeys Home/Away Stats?

Home: ERA 2.66 Avg. .201 slg. .334
Away: ERA 3.10 AVG. .235 Slg .384

Dickey gets plenty of home help by that ballpark.

Again, WAR is park neutral. If you don't know what that means, please go read about it. It shows Cueto has the slight edge in value right now, which is what I've been saying. Another reason to use advanced sabrmetrics instead of stats like wins, and even worse your team's record.

Metsfan1121 · 08-19-2012, 01:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BAMBAM

Nobody said that wins are, however when players' more meaningful stats like era, whip and baa are so similar run support is a big factor. We're not talking Jamie Moyer winning 15 games with a 5+ era while getting 7.5 runs a game in support here.

Please explain.

maxe0213 · 08-19-2012, 01:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ryan T.

Again, WAR is park neutral. If you don't know what that means, please go read about it. It shows Cueto has the slight edge in value right now, which is what I've been saying. Another reason to use advanced sabrmetrics instead of stats like wins, and even worse your team's record.

I know what WAR is buddy. And yes its 3.9 to 4.3 Cueto leading. So by that you are agreeing with everyone you've been arguing against. Wow smh

08-19-2012, 01:42 PM	#55 (permalink)
katieneack Member Join Date: Aug 2012 Location: Cincinnati Posts: 49 katieneack	Cueto is pitching in one of the best (if not the best) hitters parks in the entire league. Dickey is pitching in a pitchers park. Yet his ERA is still almost half a run lower. Dickey has had a great year,and things could change, but Cueto has to be the leader right now. __________________ Barry Larkin Collector!! Always Looking to Buy any Barry Larkins I don't have Currently Have: 2,642/3,557 Beckett Listings (74.3%) Without 1/1's: 2,624/3,195 Beckett Listing (82.1%)

08-19-2012, 01:43 PM	#59 (permalink)
maffman15 Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Nazareth, PA Posts: 939 610sportscards	Did everybody forget about Cole Hamels? 14 Wins, 2.94 ERA, 171.1 IP, 168 Ks, .235 AVG, 1.11 WHIP All in 24 Games compared to Cueto and Dickeys 25 __________________ Bucket http://s364.photobucket.com/home/maffman15/index If I send you a PM, be polite and reply back.

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08-19-2012, 01:46 PM	#62 (permalink)
Ryan T. Member Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Rochester, NY Posts: 1,014	Also, for all the GABP vs. Citi arguments; WAR is park neutral. Cueto pitching in GABP is probably the reason he is ahead in WAR right now, and he should get credit for that.

08-19-2012, 01:48 PM	#64 (permalink)
maxe0213 Banned Join Date: Jun 2012 Location: California, Oregon Posts: 1,722 maxe0213 maxe0213	Okay. Dickey: 15-4 2.89 ERA, 16HRs Allowed, 1.04 WHIP Team is 57-63 17 GB First Place (Pitchers ballpark) Cueto: 16-6 2.44 ERA, 9HRs Allowed, 1.13 WHIP Team is 73-48 First Place (Hitters Ballpark) I'll take Cueto all day.

08-19-2012, 01:53 PM	#69 (permalink)
maxe0213 Banned Join Date: Jun 2012 Location: California, Oregon Posts: 1,722 maxe0213 maxe0213	Did you look at Dickeys Home/Away Stats? Home: ERA 2.66 Avg. .201 slg. .334 Away: ERA 3.10 AVG. .235 Slg .384 Dickey gets plenty of home help by that ballpark.