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Old 09-23-2012, 09:38 PM   #726 (permalink)
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No.....yo granny
She got bank.
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Old 09-23-2012, 09:59 PM   #727 (permalink)
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She got bank.
I have now been lemur'd today.
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Old 09-23-2012, 10:11 PM   #728 (permalink)
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Dodgers are toast if they don't win this one now.
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Old 09-23-2012, 10:58 PM   #729 (permalink)
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I've played for 7 years. It's definitely nerve wracking when you're at bat in a big game.
That's another thing. Nationals are playing for 1st place and Stephen Strasburg was shut down making Gio the Ace. All of Gio's games are that much bigger because of those two things. RA Dickey is playing on a team that has absolutely nothing to play for, much less nerve wrecking.
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Old 09-23-2012, 11:08 PM   #730 (permalink)
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That's another thing. Nationals are playing for 1st place and Stephen Strasburg was shut down making Gio the Ace. All of Gio's games are that much bigger because of those two things. RA Dickey is playing on a team that has absolutely nothing to play for, much less nerve wrecking.
Yeah exactly, so tell me again how this quality team that Gio plays for provides him with run support that NY does not give to Dickey.
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Old 09-23-2012, 11:41 PM   #731 (permalink)
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Honestly, how much do we think voters are thinking about what place the candidates' teams are in? The Nats are in first because of Gonzalez AND Strasburg AND Zimmermann AND Detwiler. That's 4 of the NL's top 16 in ERA.

Let's face it: none of these guys are 2011 Verlander. Felix won on a deplorable Mariners team a few years back. Voters are looking more and more at what a pitcher is directly responsible for.
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Old 09-24-2012, 12:35 AM   #732 (permalink)
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Honestly, how much do we think voters are thinking about what place the candidates' teams are in? The Nats are in first because of Gonzalez AND Strasburg AND Zimmermann AND Detwiler. That's 4 of the NL's top 16 in ERA.

Let's face it: none of these guys are 2011 Verlander. Felix won on a deplorable Mariners team a few years back. Voters are looking more and more at what a pitcher is directly responsible for.
Yup and it's awesome. Felix winning was a big step forward for the legitimacy of these type of awards.
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Old 09-24-2012, 09:43 AM   #733 (permalink)
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Honestly, how much do we think voters are thinking about what place the candidates' teams are in? The Nats are in first because of Gonzalez AND Strasburg AND Zimmermann AND Detwiler. That's 4 of the NL's top 16 in ERA.

Let's face it: none of these guys are 2011 Verlander. Felix won on a deplorable Mariners team a few years back. Voters are looking more and more at what a pitcher is directly responsible for.


I am not sure what voters think because I haven't talked to any but I know what players/coaches/scouts think around the league and many say that Gio deserves it more than anyone (not giving my biased opinion). These aren't just Nationals personnel either.

One of them have said he deserves it for what he's done in the past few years (I know you guys are going to attack that, its not what I said but it's the truth). Couple of others said he has helped a team who has never won anything and pushed them into first place (I know others have succeeded also but Gio has been the ace this year, succeeding expectation and not living behind Strasburg's shadow). I believe it just came out on ESPN a few days ago that some scouts had also said Gio deserved it but have to read up on it.


I honestly don't know what is gonna happen, I do know that is still ONLY a two horse race between Dickey and Gio. I think the next two starts will be very important for both. Gio has been put on an inning limit to preserve him for the playoffs but if he can throw some shutout innings and keep the walks down in the final two games, with a little luck he might be able to pull it off.

Gonna be an interesting 2 weeks that's for sure!
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Old 09-24-2012, 10:03 AM   #734 (permalink)
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I honestly don't know what is gonna happen, I do know that is still ONLY a two horse race between Dickey and Gio.
At this point I agree. I still think Kershaw, Kimbrel, and even Medlen may pick up some first-place votes. Looking at everything now, it's probably 70/30 Dickey/Gonzalez, but that could change on a dime.

Dickey has two more starts. Gonzalez has one more, maybe two depending on if the Nats rest him the final week (I assume they will). Swingman, get us some inside info
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Old 09-24-2012, 10:09 AM   #735 (permalink)
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At this point I agree. I still think Kershaw, Kimbrel, and even Medlen may pick up some first-place votes. Looking at everything now, it's probably 70/30 Dickey/Gonzalez, but that could change on a dime.

Dickey has two more starts. Gonzalez has one more, maybe two depending on if the Nats rest him the final week (I assume they will). Swingman, get us some inside info

As of right now he will have two more starts versus the Phillies (Sept 27 and Oct 2). He will most likely be on a 6/7 inning cap (just like Saturday) regardless of pitches thrown UNLESS he is heading into those innings with a no hitter.

Dickey I believe pitches against the Marlins twice.
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Old 09-24-2012, 10:33 AM   #736 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Swingman View Post
As of right now he will have two more starts versus the Phillies (Sept 27 and Oct 2). He will most likely be on a 6/7 inning cap (just like Saturday) regardless of pitches thrown UNLESS he is heading into those innings with a no hitter.

Dickey I believe pitches against the Marlins twice.
Is the Nats first playoff game on 10/6 or 10/7?
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Old 09-24-2012, 10:41 AM   #737 (permalink)
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Is the Nats first playoff game on 10/6 or 10/7?


Nats will be playing on 10/7 as of right now because they will most likely be playing against the wild card team. Gio will be starting on 10/7 in what looks like St. Louis or Atlanta. I will be there
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Old 09-24-2012, 10:43 AM   #738 (permalink)
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If it's Atlanta, hook a brother and his wife up with tickets, we'll buy your dinner and beers

EDIT: Crap, Topps Update case break is that weekend, nevermind

EDIT EDIT: Hey, Washington still hasn't won the division
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Last edited by calculusdork; 09-24-2012 at 10:47 AM.
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Old 09-24-2012, 10:54 AM   #739 (permalink)
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I am still not sure why people are discounting Kershaw. It isn't like he only pitched 20 games or something, he pitched 30+ starts, has a phenomenal ERA, ridiculous WHIP, good K rate. Why is he being dismissed? Seems silly, he would have my vote personally.

Gio is not as consistent as the first two on my ballet, which is important to me.

1. Kershaw
2. Dickey
3. Gonzalez
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Old 09-24-2012, 11:06 AM   #740 (permalink)
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I am still not sure why people are discounting Kershaw. It isn't like he only pitched 20 games or something, he pitched 30+ starts, has a phenomenal ERA, ridiculous WHIP, good K rate. Why is he being dismissed? Seems silly, he would have my vote personally.

Gio is not as consistent as the first two on my ballet, which is important to me.

1. Kershaw
2. Dickey
3. Gonzalez

Good thing your vote (nor mine) matters because I am telling you right now, you are going to be very disappointed when Kershaw comes in 3rd/4th.

Not giving you a personal opinion either.



Not consistent? Gio has only lost back to back starts once all season and has giving up 3+ runs in back to back games twice. Gio has gotten lit up for 4+ earned runs ONCE all season. Kershaw on the other hand has been lit up for 4+ FOUR times this season and lost back to back starts twice.

Kershaw does have some numbers that are better than Gio's but to say Gio isn't consistent? Cmon thats just BS, kid has been doing it ALL season long.
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Old 09-24-2012, 11:10 AM   #741 (permalink)
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I am still not sure why people are discounting Kershaw. It isn't like he only pitched 20 games or something, he pitched 30+ starts, has a phenomenal ERA, ridiculous WHIP, good K rate. Why is he being dismissed? Seems silly, he would have my vote personally.

Gio is not as consistent as the first two on my ballet, which is important to me.

1. Kershaw
2. Dickey
3. Gonzalez
I thought he was out for the year, didn't realize he was still pitching.

His low win total is going to hurt him in voter's eyes ... this is not a Felix Hernandez type situation, where the (clearly) most dominant pitcher in the league only has 12 wins. Kershaw's numbers stack up against Dickey's, but R.A. has 7 more wins for a worse team. That kind of stuff seems to matter to voters.
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Old 09-24-2012, 11:53 AM   #742 (permalink)
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I thought he was out for the year, didn't realize he was still pitching.

His low win total is going to hurt him in voter's eyes ... this is not a Felix Hernandez type situation, where the (clearly) most dominant pitcher in the league only has 12 wins. Kershaw's numbers stack up against Dickey's, but R.A. has 7 more wins for a worse team. That kind of stuff seems to matter to voters.


There is NO excuse for the Dodgers not to be winning. As good as Kershaw is which we all know, he is very good, not having the wins is going to hurt him like you said.
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Old 09-24-2012, 12:02 PM   #743 (permalink)
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I am still not sure why people are discounting Kershaw. It isn't like he only pitched 20 games or something, he pitched 30+ starts, has a phenomenal ERA, ridiculous WHIP, good K rate. Why is he being dismissed? Seems silly, he would have my vote personally.

Gio is not as consistent as the first two on my ballet, which is important to me.

1. Kershaw
2. Dickey
3. Gonzalez
I had Kershaw and Dickey neck-and-neck before the hip impingement. Even now, they have nearly identical numbers:

ERA
Dickey - 2.66
Kershaw - 2.68

WHIP
Kershaw - 1.039
Dickey - 1.041

Strikeouts
Kershaw - 211
Dickey 209

WAR (bbref's, FWIW)
Kershaw - 5.4
Dickey 5.3

Those numbers are eerily similar. Dickey has the upper hand in wins (obviously) and has logged 220 innings to Clayton's 211.2. If the hip hadn't been an issue, he'd be right up there in IP as well.

Dickey is scheduled to go two more turns before the end of the season and Clayton has one (although I suppose it's possible he goes on short rest if the Dodgers are still in the running at Game 162). I didn't watch the game last night, but based on the 5 walks he issued, it looks like command could be an issue the rest of the way.

It's really too bad about Clayton because he'd been cruising of late. An ESPN tweet before last night's start said that Kershaw's 1.76 ERA since July 29 is 2nd-best in MLB in that span (Kris Medlen 0.76). What he could've done if he stayed healthy I guess we'll never know. But so goes the game sometimes...

All that said, I admittedly wrote Kershaw off after they skipped his last start, but I don't suppose it's over for him just yet. If last night's start was merely him shaking the rust off and he can log two more very solid outings, he can probably work his way back into the discussion.
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Old 09-24-2012, 12:40 PM   #744 (permalink)
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Good thing your vote (nor mine) matters because I am telling you right now, you are going to be very disappointed when Kershaw comes in 3rd/4th.

Not giving you a personal opinion either.

Not consistent? Gio has only lost back to back starts once all season and has giving up 3+ runs in back to back games twice. Gio has gotten lit up for 4+ earned runs ONCE all season. Kershaw on the other hand has been lit up for 4+ FOUR times this season and lost back to back starts twice.

Kershaw does have some numbers that are better than Gio's but to say Gio isn't consistent? Cmon thats just BS, kid has been doing it ALL season long.
Who cares about whether or not he has lost back to back starts or not. That is laughable, because Gio doesn't control how many runs are scored for the Nationals last I checked and Kershaw doesn't control how many runs the Dodgers score. Stop even mentioning the complete idiocy of the wins statistic - this isn't 1910.

As far as conssitency goes, Kershaw has 23 quality starts in 31 starts (which includes a start not being a QS immediately following not pitching for 12 days); Gio has 21 quality starts in 31 starts. Gio flat out does not go deep enough into games yet, because he walks too many batters and lacks elite control. If you had Gio go another inning into every game, I guarantee you would not even see Gio mentioned in this thread with his significantly higher ERA. I guess being a horse isn't important to you. Well, you call him a horse, so who knows, maybe you just lack the understanding of what that term actually means in baseball - it refers to someone who can go deep into games, not an innings eater.

On a closer look, I see Dickey has a staggering 81% of his starts being quality starts (25/31). I will revise my ballot as appropriate:

1. Dickey
2. Kershaw
.
.
.
Distant 3. Gonzalez
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Old 09-24-2012, 01:36 PM   #745 (permalink)
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Who cares about whether or not he has lost back to back starts or not. That is laughable, because Gio doesn't control how many runs are scored for the Nationals last I checked and Kershaw doesn't control how many runs the Dodgers score. Stop even mentioning the complete idiocy of the wins statistic - this isn't 1910.

As far as conssitency goes, Kershaw has 23 quality starts in 31 starts (which includes a start not being a QS immediately following not pitching for 12 days); Gio has 21 quality starts in 31 starts. Gio flat out does not go deep enough into games yet, because he walks too many batters and lacks elite control. If you had Gio go another inning into every game, I guarantee you would not even see Gio mentioned in this thread with his significantly higher ERA. I guess being a horse isn't important to you. Well, you call him a horse, so who knows, maybe you just lack the understanding of what that term actually means in baseball - it refers to someone who can go deep into games, not an innings eater.

On a closer look, I see Dickey has a staggering 81% of his starts being quality starts (25/31). I will revise my ballot as appropriate:

1. Dickey
2. Kershaw
.
.
.
Distant 3. Gonzalez


Again, I really don't care what you or anyone else has to say at this point, its always something. Now he moved into top 5 in ERA, its he doesn't have enough innings, can't win you people over. Hitters have the lowest average against him per 9 but your right had he gone another inning in his starts he would have a much higher ERA. Good one. I talk to people who have an impact on this decision and know more than any of us do.

Put your money where your mouth is and let's bet WHO FINISHES HIGHER, Gio or Kershaw. If your so confident please accept my offer. Thanks.
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Old 09-24-2012, 02:05 PM   #746 (permalink)
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Hey guys, I don't want to open up a can of worms again, but I just want to revisit the innings pitched argument I posed a few weeks ago because I still think it's very important. The point I made was that voters hold innings pitched in high regard. Here are all the Cy Young winners since 2000 and where they ranked in their respective leagues in innings pitched.

National League
2011 - Kershaw - 3rd
2010 - Halladay - 1st
2009 - Timmy Jim - 3rd
2008 - Timmy Jim - 3rd
2007 - Peavy - 4th
2006 - Webb - 2nd
2005 - Carpenter - 2nd
2004 - Clemens - 8th
2003 - Gagne - Out the Top 10
2002 - Johnson - 1st
2001 - Johnson - 2nd
2000 - Johnson - 3rd

American League
2011 - Verlander - 1st
2010 - Hernandez - 1st
2009 - Greinke - 5th
2008 - Lee - 2nd
2007 - Sabathia - 1st
2006 - Santana - 1st
2005 - Colon - 7th
2004 - Santana - 2nd
2003 - Halladay - 1st
2002 - Zito - 5th
2001 - Clemens - Outside the Top 10
2000 - Martinez - 7th

So, since the year 2000, exactly two pitchers have finished outside the top 10 in innings pitched and went on to win the Cy Young. The closer Gagne went 55 for 55 in save opportunities in 2003 (for all pro-Kimbrel folks...sorry, he's having a great season, but it's not 55-for-55-great). And Clemens in 2001? Eh...even as a Yankee fan, I can't explain that one.

Am I saying it's impossible for Gio to win Cy if he finishes where he currently stands at 16th in innings pitched? Absolutely not...crazier things have happened. But based on the correlation between recent CYA winners and where they ranked in IP the year they won, the argument seems to favor a Dickey/Kershaw type. Here are the top 10 in innings pitched right now:

1. Dickey (NYM) 220.0
2. Kershaw (LAD) 211.2
3. Richard (SDP) 208.0
4. Cain (SFG) 207.1
5. Lohse (STL) 205.0
6. Bumgarner (SFG) 204.1
7. Hamels (PHI) 203.1
8. Cueto (CIN) 203.0
9. Gallardo (MIL) 198.0
Lee (PHI) 198.0
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Old 09-24-2012, 02:12 PM   #747 (permalink)
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Speaking of Cliff Lee ... is it possible that he's having the un-luckiest season of any pitcher in the history of baseball? 6 wins (4 in the last month, good grief), yet he will finish with over 200 IP and possibly top-10 in ERA.
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Old 09-24-2012, 02:12 PM   #748 (permalink)
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^^^ Great stats. Again, whoever wants to bet that anyone not named Dickey (who has a legit chance) finishes ontop of Gio in the standings please contact me. Thanks.
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Old 09-24-2012, 02:16 PM   #749 (permalink)
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lol I already offered you a wager that you could have accepted that would have been +EV for you according to your beliefs and you declined. Stop mentioning bets please, thanks.
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Old 09-24-2012, 02:21 PM   #750 (permalink)
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Speaking of Cliff Lee ... is it possible that he's having the un-luckiest season of any pitcher in the history of baseball? 6 wins (4 in the last month, good grief), yet he will finish with over 200 IP and possibly top-10 in ERA.
LOL terrible, terrible luck...remember when he threw 10 shutout innings against the Giants in April and left with a no decision? That's basically his season in a nutshell.
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