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Old 08-19-2012, 01:56 PM   #76 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by maxe0213 View Post
Wait so you say Cueto has an edge? Why are you even arguing then if your arguing and agreeing...
I'm arguing because you're using terrible reasoning to arrive at your conclusion. If you don't want to learn more about, and improve your understanding of, the game and how it's measured, fine.
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Old 08-19-2012, 01:57 PM   #77 (permalink)
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I like how the two people arguing this against Cueto(or in defense of dickey) are both Mets fans. haha No bias?
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Old 08-19-2012, 01:58 PM   #78 (permalink)
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Not sure where these WAR #'s are coming from, but according to ESPN, here are the WAR statistics for pitchging - Dickey doesn't even make the top 10:
RK PLAYER TEAM WAR
1 Justin Verlander DET 6.1
2 Johnny Cueto CIN 5.7
3 Chris Sale CHW 5.1
4 David Price TB 4.9
5 Hiroki Kuroda NYY 4.6
6 Jake Peavy CHW 4.4
Jordan Zimmermann WSH 4.4
8 Matt Harrison TEX 4.3
9 Felix Hernandez SEA 4.2
10 Kyle Lohse STL 3.8
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Old 08-19-2012, 01:59 PM   #79 (permalink)
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I believe when I looked fangraphs had cueto at 4.3 and dickey at 3.9. Hmm I wonder why they are different
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Old 08-19-2012, 02:00 PM   #80 (permalink)
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If those are the true ones then it's def. cueto and this whole guys dickey argument is pretty flawed
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Old 08-19-2012, 02:00 PM   #81 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by katieneack View Post
Not sure where these WAR #'s are coming from, but according to ESPN, here are the WAR statistics for pitchging - Dickey doesn't even make the top 10:
RK PLAYER TEAM WAR
1 Justin Verlander DET 6.1
2 Johnny Cueto CIN 5.7
3 Chris Sale CHW 5.1
4 David Price TB 4.9
5 Hiroki Kuroda NYY 4.6
6 Jake Peavy CHW 4.4
Jordan Zimmermann WSH 4.4
8 Matt Harrison TEX 4.3
9 Felix Hernandez SEA 4.2
10 Kyle Lohse STL 3.8
National League Leaderboards 2012 Pitchers Dashboard | FanGraphs Baseball
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Old 08-19-2012, 02:01 PM   #82 (permalink)
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Guys in the mix, not in order:

Clayton Kershaw
Johnny Cueto
Stephen Strasburg (will lose a chance to keep value pace because of IP limit)
R.A. Dickey
Gio Gonzalez
Cole Hamels
Madison Bumgarner
Matt Cain
Jordan Zimmermann
Adam Wainwright (not sure if on IP limit)

Some of them would require big jumps, but it has happened before, took a few off though.


Would have including Greinke as well if he were still in the NL.
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Old 08-19-2012, 02:01 PM   #83 (permalink)
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Interesting - Look at teh bottom left on ESPN's main MLB page - wonder what the difference is?
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Old 08-19-2012, 02:02 PM   #84 (permalink)
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There are plenty of other meaningful stats to long at, that don't rely on things like run support, how good your teammates are, etc.
Sure are, too many stats if you ask me BUT at least nobody brought up the nonsense that is the "quality start"
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Old 08-19-2012, 02:02 PM   #85 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katieneack View Post
Not sure where these WAR #'s are coming from, but according to ESPN, here are the WAR statistics for pitchging - Dickey doesn't even make the top 10:
RK PLAYER TEAM WAR
1 Justin Verlander DET 6.1
2 Johnny Cueto CIN 5.7
3 Chris Sale CHW 5.1
4 David Price TB 4.9
5 Hiroki Kuroda NYY 4.6
6 Jake Peavy CHW 4.4
Jordan Zimmermann WSH 4.4
8 Matt Harrison TEX 4.3
9 Felix Hernandez SEA 4.2
10 Kyle Lohse STL 3.8
Use fangraphs pitching for WAR, it's better as it's peripherally based. ESPN use b-ref's, which is better for position players than pitchers.
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Old 08-19-2012, 02:03 PM   #86 (permalink)
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Sure are, too many stats if you ask me BUT at least nobody brought up the nonsense that is the "quality start"
A far from perfect stat for sure, but still better than Wins.
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Old 08-19-2012, 02:04 PM   #87 (permalink)
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Use fangraphs pitching for WAR, it's better as it's peripherally based. ESPN use b-ref's, which is better for position players than pitchers.
I'll take your word for it, that stat is too confusing for me to try and take the time to really understand it
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Old 08-19-2012, 02:04 PM   #88 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by katieneack View Post
Interesting - Look at teh bottom left on ESPN's main MLB page - wonder what the difference is?
Unfortunately for some of these complex metrics, there is no "standard". The formulas are constantly evolving and being tweaked.

As Nick explained, Fangraphs' pitching WAR is much more accurate because it's peripherally based.
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Old 08-19-2012, 02:08 PM   #89 (permalink)
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i do believe all this is all up to sports writers of America and dickey is the top story right now because of his age and after so many years in the bigs......he was nothing before he created is nasty pitch (knuckballs) its history in the making guys
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Old 08-19-2012, 02:10 PM   #90 (permalink)
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i do believe all this is all up to sports writers of America and dickey is the top story right now because of his age and after so many years in the bigs......he was nothing before he created is nasty pitch (knuckballs) its history in the making guys
Unfortunately, this will have a role it also.

As much as stats like Wins shouldn't have a role in the voting, neither should "soft" stuff like life stories, etc. But of course they're going to because it's voted on by writers.

I'd be lying if I said I didn't hope Dickey would win, but if he doesn't I certainly won't be upset because there are so many close players this year.
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Old 08-19-2012, 02:22 PM   #91 (permalink)
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Still alot of time but its been a great debate for August. These guys should have 5-6 starts left and alot can happen. A.J. Burnett is an example. Great season but has been horrible his last few starts. Will that continue? Lots of time. I still say Cueto on numbers but with Dickey being far more popular it helps him. ALOT of casual baseball fans have no clue who Cueto even is.
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Old 08-19-2012, 02:31 PM   #92 (permalink)
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Hey Max! There you are...

I noticed you have been able to post in here a lot. Pretty impressive post total in this thread. Pretty impressive.

Oddly, there is a thread over here (looking)... ah, here it is:

Calling out MAXE0213

This thread has been waiting for you to answer. Something about getting caught in a lie?

I figure you must just not have been able to find it. If you have trouble, just search for your username in thread titles. Then out of those results, find the most recent call out thread. That'll be the one.
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Old 08-19-2012, 02:36 PM   #93 (permalink)
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You're a Silly Billy...

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Originally Posted by houdini View Post
Hey Max! There you are...

I noticed you have been able to post in here a lot. Pretty impressive post total in this thread. Pretty impressive.

Oddly, there is a thread over here (looking)... ah, here it is:

Calling out MAXE0213

This thread has been waiting for you to answer. Something about getting caught in a lie?

I figure you must just not have been able to find it. If you have trouble, just search for your username in thread titles. Then out of those results, find the most recent call out thread. That'll be the one.
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Old 08-19-2012, 02:36 PM   #94 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by houdini View Post
Hey Max! There you are...

I noticed you have been able to post in here a lot. Pretty impressive post total in this thread. Pretty impressive.

Oddly, there is a thread over here (looking)... ah, here it is:

Calling out MAXE0213

This thread has been waiting for you to answer. Something about getting caught in a lie?

I figure you must just not have been able to find it. If you have trouble, just search for your username in thread titles. Then out of those results, find the most recent call out thread. That'll be the one.
Never would have guessed.
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Old 08-19-2012, 02:39 PM   #95 (permalink)
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Id like to see Burnett finish strong and get some support. Cueto or Dickey as of now, of course these two would have to suck down the stretch also.
I'd like to see burnett fall in a ditch and break his leg.
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Old 08-19-2012, 02:41 PM   #96 (permalink)
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I'd like to see burnett fall in a ditch and break his leg.
Burnett, although he's having a nice rebound year, is nowhere near the level of the other pitchers in this discussion.
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Old 08-19-2012, 03:02 PM   #97 (permalink)
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Matt Cain!
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Old 08-19-2012, 04:53 PM   #98 (permalink)
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I think Cole Hamels might have something to say about it when its all said and done
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Old 08-19-2012, 04:56 PM   #99 (permalink)
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Burnett helped completely turn that team around
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Old 08-19-2012, 05:31 PM   #100 (permalink)
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Hey Max! There you are...

I noticed you have been able to post in here a lot. Pretty impressive post total in this thread. Pretty impressive.

Oddly, there is a thread over here (looking)... ah, here it is:

Calling out MAXE0213

This thread has been waiting for you to answer. Something about getting caught in a lie?

I figure you must just not have been able to find it. If you have trouble, just search for your username in thread titles. Then out of those results, find the most recent call out thread. That'll be the one.
Dang bro. Hop off my cock. Someone must really enjoy following me around. Get a life bro
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