NL CY YOUNG

[Ryan T.]

Originally Posted by maxe0213

Wait so you say Cueto has an edge? Why are you even arguing then if your arguing and agreeing...

I'm arguing because you're using terrible reasoning to arrive at your conclusion. If you don't want to learn more about, and improve your understanding of, the game and how it's measured, fine.

[maxe0213]

I like how the two people arguing this against Cueto(or in defense of dickey) are both Mets fans. haha No bias?

[katieneack]

Not sure where these WAR #'s are coming from, but according to ESPN, here are the WAR statistics for pitchging - Dickey doesn't even make the top 10:
RK PLAYER TEAM WAR
1 Justin Verlander DET 6.1
2 Johnny Cueto CIN 5.7
3 Chris Sale CHW 5.1
4 David Price TB 4.9
5 Hiroki Kuroda NYY 4.6
6 Jake Peavy CHW 4.4
Jordan Zimmermann WSH 4.4
8 Matt Harrison TEX 4.3
9 Felix Hernandez SEA 4.2
10 Kyle Lohse STL 3.8

[maxe0213]

I believe when I looked fangraphs had cueto at 4.3 and dickey at 3.9. Hmm I wonder why they are different

[maxe0213]

If those are the true ones then it's def. cueto and this whole guys dickey argument is pretty flawed

[Ryan T.]

Originally Posted by katieneack

Not sure where these WAR #'s are coming from, but according to ESPN, here are the WAR statistics for pitchging - Dickey doesn't even make the top 10:
RK PLAYER TEAM WAR
1 Justin Verlander DET 6.1
2 Johnny Cueto CIN 5.7
3 Chris Sale CHW 5.1
4 David Price TB 4.9
5 Hiroki Kuroda NYY 4.6
6 Jake Peavy CHW 4.4
Jordan Zimmermann WSH 4.4
8 Matt Harrison TEX 4.3
9 Felix Hernandez SEA 4.2
10 Kyle Lohse STL 3.8

National League Leaderboards 2012 Pitchers Dashboard | FanGraphs Baseball

[xbignick]

Guys in the mix, not in order:

Clayton Kershaw
Johnny Cueto
Stephen Strasburg (will lose a chance to keep value pace because of IP limit)
R.A. Dickey
Gio Gonzalez
Cole Hamels
Madison Bumgarner
Matt Cain
Jordan Zimmermann
Adam Wainwright (not sure if on IP limit)

Some of them would require big jumps, but it has happened before, took a few off though.


Would have including Greinke as well if he were still in the NL.

[katieneack]

Originally Posted by Ryan T.

National League Leaderboards 2012 Pitchers Dashboard | FanGraphs Baseball

Interesting - Look at teh bottom left on ESPN's main MLB page - wonder what the difference is?

[BAMBAM]

Originally Posted by Ryan T.

There are plenty of other meaningful stats to long at, that don't rely on things like run support, how good your teammates are, etc.

Sure are, too many stats if you ask me BUT at least nobody brought up the nonsense that is the "quality start"

[xbignick]

Originally Posted by katieneack

Not sure where these WAR #'s are coming from, but according to ESPN, here are the WAR statistics for pitchging - Dickey doesn't even make the top 10:
RK PLAYER TEAM WAR
1 Justin Verlander DET 6.1
2 Johnny Cueto CIN 5.7
3 Chris Sale CHW 5.1
4 David Price TB 4.9
5 Hiroki Kuroda NYY 4.6
6 Jake Peavy CHW 4.4
Jordan Zimmermann WSH 4.4
8 Matt Harrison TEX 4.3
9 Felix Hernandez SEA 4.2
10 Kyle Lohse STL 3.8

Use fangraphs pitching for WAR, it's better as it's peripherally based. ESPN use b-ref's, which is better for position players than pitchers.

[Ryan T.]

Originally Posted by BAMBAM

Sure are, too many stats if you ask me BUT at least nobody brought up the nonsense that is the "quality start"

A far from perfect stat for sure, but still better than Wins.

[katieneack]

Originally Posted by xbignick

Use fangraphs pitching for WAR, it's better as it's peripherally based. ESPN use b-ref's, which is better for position players than pitchers.

I'll take your word for it, that stat is too confusing for me to try and take the time to really understand it

[Ryan T.]

Originally Posted by katieneack

Interesting - Look at teh bottom left on ESPN's main MLB page - wonder what the difference is?

Unfortunately for some of these complex metrics, there is no "standard". The formulas are constantly evolving and being tweaked.

As Nick explained, Fangraphs' pitching WAR is much more accurate because it's peripherally based.

[scorpion1157]

i do believe all this is all up to sports writers of America and dickey is the top story right now because of his age and after so many years in the bigs......he was nothing before he created is nasty pitch (knuckballs) its history in the making guys

[Ryan T.]

Originally Posted by scorpion1157

i do believe all this is all up to sports writers of America and dickey is the top story right now because of his age and after so many years in the bigs......he was nothing before he created is nasty pitch (knuckballs) its history in the making guys

Unfortunately, this will have a role it also.

As much as stats like Wins shouldn't have a role in the voting, neither should "soft" stuff like life stories, etc. But of course they're going to because it's voted on by writers.

I'd be lying if I said I didn't hope Dickey would win, but if he doesn't I certainly won't be upset because there are so many close players this year.

[cruiserdaddy7]

Still alot of time but its been a great debate for August. These guys should have 5-6 starts left and alot can happen. A.J. Burnett is an example. Great season but has been horrible his last few starts. Will that continue? Lots of time. I still say Cueto on numbers but with Dickey being far more popular it helps him. ALOT of casual baseball fans have no clue who Cueto even is.

[houdini]

Hey Max! There you are...

I noticed you have been able to post in here a lot. Pretty impressive post total in this thread. Pretty impressive.

Oddly, there is a thread over here (looking)... ah, here it is:

Calling out MAXE0213

This thread has been waiting for you to answer. Something about getting caught in a lie?

I figure you must just not have been able to find it. If you have trouble, just search for your username in thread titles. Then out of those results, find the most recent call out thread. That'll be the one.

[BostonNut]

You're a Silly Billy...

Originally Posted by houdini

Hey Max! There you are...

I noticed you have been able to post in here a lot. Pretty impressive post total in this thread. Pretty impressive.

Oddly, there is a thread over here (looking)... ah, here it is:

Calling out MAXE0213

This thread has been waiting for you to answer. Something about getting caught in a lie?

I figure you must just not have been able to find it. If you have trouble, just search for your username in thread titles. Then out of those results, find the most recent call out thread. That'll be the one.

[Ryan T.]

Originally Posted by houdini

Hey Max! There you are...

I noticed you have been able to post in here a lot. Pretty impressive post total in this thread. Pretty impressive.

Oddly, there is a thread over here (looking)... ah, here it is:

Calling out MAXE0213

This thread has been waiting for you to answer. Something about getting caught in a lie?

I figure you must just not have been able to find it. If you have trouble, just search for your username in thread titles. Then out of those results, find the most recent call out thread. That'll be the one.

Never would have guessed.

[Lastminute73]

Originally Posted by THE(NEXT)LEVEL

Id like to see Burnett finish strong and get some support. Cueto or Dickey as of now, of course these two would have to suck down the stretch also.

I'd like to see burnett fall in a ditch and break his leg.

[Ryan T.]

Originally Posted by Lastminute73

I'd like to see burnett fall in a ditch and break his leg.

Burnett, although he's having a nice rebound year, is nowhere near the level of the other pitchers in this discussion.

[fert360]

Matt Cain!

[WalterAZ31]

I think Cole Hamels might have something to say about it when its all said and done

[thehueys]

Burnett helped completely turn that team around

[maxe0213]

Originally Posted by houdini

Hey Max! There you are...

I noticed you have been able to post in here a lot. Pretty impressive post total in this thread. Pretty impressive.

Oddly, there is a thread over here (looking)... ah, here it is:

Calling out MAXE0213

This thread has been waiting for you to answer. Something about getting caught in a lie?

I figure you must just not have been able to find it. If you have trouble, just search for your username in thread titles. Then out of those results, find the most recent call out thread. That'll be the one.

Dang bro. Hop off my cock. Someone must really enjoy following me around. Get a life bro