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Old 10-05-2012, 01:13 PM   #1001 (permalink)
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OOOOOO Adam
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Old 10-05-2012, 01:25 PM   #1002 (permalink)
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Saw this in an article and thought it was pretty funny:

The difference between Kershaw's strikeout total and Dickey's was Adam Greenberg.

How 'bout that? For a guy who said at the beginning of his own book that he'd "never lead the league in strikeouts"
LOL! Mazel Tov Adam
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Old 10-05-2012, 02:50 PM   #1003 (permalink)
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It's only because of the most meaningless, asinine stat out there: wins

Oh.... ok..... Wins are meaningless.........
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Old 10-05-2012, 03:36 PM   #1004 (permalink)
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Lincecum, no doubt about it
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Old 10-05-2012, 05:48 PM   #1005 (permalink)
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This is interesting, as a sample of how actual baseball writers feel. One name is conspicuously absent:

Staff Awards Picks | FanGraphs Baseball
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Old 10-05-2012, 10:07 PM   #1006 (permalink)
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Oh.... ok..... Wins are meaningless.........
When evaluating how a pitcher performed, they absolutely are meaningless. For example, earlier this year, Cliff Lee threw 10 innings of 1-run ball ... and got the loss. Guess he must have sucked. You cannot use wins to determine if a pitcher performed well. I thought this was fairly common knowledge.

If a pitcher has many wins, generally speaking the pitcher did indeed perform well. No one can say Dickey and Gio did not perform at a high level. But the absence of wins certainly does not imply a pitcher failed to do well. If you disagree, I am sorry, you just flat out do not understand baseball.
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Old 10-05-2012, 10:08 PM   #1007 (permalink)
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When evaluating how a pitcher performed, they absolutely are meaningless. For example, earlier this year, Cliff Lee threw 10 innings of 1-run ball ... and got the loss. Guess he must have sucked. You cannot use wins to determine if a pitcher performed well. I thought this was fairly common knowledge.

If a pitcher has many wins, generally speaking the pitcher did indeed perform well. No one can say Dickey and Gio did not perform at a high level. But the absence of wins certainly does not imply a pitcher failed to do well. If you disagree, I am sorry, you just flat out do not understand baseball.
I can't wait until Gio goes 8-15 next year because of crappy luck / run support and we can all see how Swingman takes it.
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Old 10-05-2012, 10:09 PM   #1008 (permalink)
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Cliff Lee is actually a perfect example of this thought process:

30 GS, 211 IP, 7+ IP/start, 3.16 ERA, 1.11 WHIP, 207 K, 27 BB ...

6-9 record.

You can't tell me you think 6 wins is an accurate reflection of the way Lee pitched this year, or that if he played for the Nationals, that he wouldn't have more wins.
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Old 10-05-2012, 10:10 PM   #1009 (permalink)
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I can't wait until Gio goes 8-15 next year because of crappy luck / run support and we can all see how Swingman takes it.
I know, right?
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Old 10-06-2012, 01:11 AM   #1010 (permalink)
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This is my favorite thread
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Old 10-06-2012, 02:33 AM   #1011 (permalink)
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I can't wait until Gio goes 8-15 next year because of crappy luck / run support and we can all see how Swingman takes it.


Good luck with that.. Don't hold your breathe!
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Old 10-06-2012, 09:09 AM   #1012 (permalink)
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I still believe that Kimbrel should be strongly considered. The dude was on fire the whole season. I don't care about the whole closer argument. Without closers, a lot of games would be lost. Closers are very important and deserve to be recognized more than they are.
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Old 10-06-2012, 01:40 PM   #1013 (permalink)
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Good luck with that.. Don't hold your breathe!
Yeah ask Matt Cain how that goes.
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Old 10-06-2012, 02:30 PM   #1014 (permalink)
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Yeah ask Matt Cain how that goes.

Matt Cain is 16-5? He's telling me Gio is going 8-15 next year. Gio won 31 games in Oakland with the worst lineups I have ever seen.
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Old 10-06-2012, 02:41 PM   #1015 (permalink)
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Cliff Lee is actually a perfect example of this thought process:

30 GS, 211 IP, 7+ IP/start, 3.16 ERA, 1.11 WHIP, 207 K, 27 BB ...

6-9 record.

You can't tell me you think 6 wins is an accurate reflection of the way Lee pitched this year, or that if he played for the Nationals, that he wouldn't have more wins.
I have yet to see Swingman or Gio47 dispute this. Prove to me that 6 wins is an accurate reflection of the way Lee pitched this year. When you admit you cannot do so, then please also admit that wins are meaningless when evaluating pitchers.
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Old 10-06-2012, 03:26 PM   #1016 (permalink)
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Cliff Lee only getting 6 wins despite a low ERA does not mean wins are meaningless. It's your opinion that they are and I can care less to "prove to you" that they matter.
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Old 10-06-2012, 03:31 PM   #1017 (permalink)
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Cliff Lee only getting 6 wins despite a low ERA does not mean wins are meaningless. It's your opinion that they are and I can care less to "prove to you" that they matter.
That's actually exactly the argument as to why wins are meaningless. If you pitch 7IP, 1 ER and your offense fails to do anything, how is that the pitcher's fault?
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Old 10-06-2012, 03:37 PM   #1018 (permalink)
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That's actually exactly the argument as to why wins are meaningless. If you pitch 7IP, 1 ER and your offense fails to do anything, how is that the pitcher's fault?
The pitcher should have thrown a shut out
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Old 10-06-2012, 03:48 PM   #1019 (permalink)
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The pitcher should have thrown a shut out
Still wouldn't have been a win if the offense throws a shutout too

I look back at Cliff Lee's 10IP, 0 R performance as the pinnacle of why Wins mean nothing.
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Old 10-06-2012, 04:49 PM   #1020 (permalink)
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Matt Cain is 16-5? He's telling me Gio is going 8-15 next year. Gio won 31 games in Oakland with the worst lineups I have ever seen.
Years exist other than this one. He never won more than 14 games before this year despite being one of the best pitchers in baseball.
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Old 10-06-2012, 07:02 PM   #1021 (permalink)
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Cliff Lee only getting 6 wins despite a low ERA does not mean wins are meaningless. It's your opinion that they are and I can care less to "prove to you" that they matter.
You could care less to prove it to me? That's because you can't!!
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Old 10-06-2012, 07:15 PM   #1022 (permalink)
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You could care less to prove it to me? That's because you can't!!
They do proofs in Pre-calc, that's not until 11th grade.
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Old 10-06-2012, 08:00 PM   #1023 (permalink)
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Why is all the onus put on the offense. Lets say a team puts up 5 runs and the pitcher allows 6, then obviously the pitcher is responsible for the loss, hence this stat matters. So, lets say said pitcher instead keeps the opposing team to 4 runs, well, he gets the win. Point is, the pitcher mattered i this game hence he gets a win. So if a team puts up only 2 runs then why is all the wieght put on them to score more? In this case its the pitchers job to keep the opposing team to 1 or less runs. I mean who determines how many runs an offense should score to make a win relevant or not? Nobody does. A pitchers win count is definatly a reflection of performance. The only time where I will buy off on the fact that wins are pointless is if the offense puts up zero's, then theres not much a pitcher can do in that case.
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Old 10-06-2012, 08:02 PM   #1024 (permalink)
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Why is all the onus put on the offense. Lets say a team puts up 5 runs and the pitcher allows 6, then obviously the pitcher is responsible for the loss, hence this stat matters. So, lets say said pitcher instead keeps the opposing team to 4 runs, well, he gets the win. Point is, the pitcher mattered i this game hence he gets a win. So if a team puts up only 2 runs then why is all the wieght put on them to score more? In this case its the pitchers job to keep the opposing team to 1 or less runs. I mean who determines how many runs an offense should score to make a win relevant or not? Nobody does. A pitchers win count is definatly a reflection of performance. The only time where I will buy off on the fact that wins are pointless is if the offense puts up zero's, then theres not much a pitcher can do in that case.
What the heck?
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Old 10-06-2012, 08:19 PM   #1025 (permalink)
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What the heck?
C'mon Pete, don't you know anything about onus?
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