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Old 09-06-2012, 01:05 AM   #151 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by seancoyle View Post
He's having a great year no doubt, but what does what they did in their careers have anything to do with the Cy young award this year?

It technically doesn't but at least show me a guy who has proven himself. Cueto and Dickey are flukes for all we know. Verlander isn't having the best year but people are still considering for AL Cy Young and it can't be because he's out pitching everyone. Prior seasons really have nothing to do with this season, all I'm saying is someone who has been a winner before deserves a little more respect than some fluke stories.
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Old 09-06-2012, 01:07 AM   #152 (permalink)
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I mentioned him 3 posts up. Pitched a great game tonight .

Amazing game tonight, second consecutive game where he doesn't allow a run. Nats are also in first place in the entire league, playing for a penant not sitting in cruise control out of the playoffs like Dickey and the Mets.
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Old 09-06-2012, 01:09 AM   #153 (permalink)
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How is GIO GONZALEZ not being mentioned here? Guy is hands down best pitcher in the league right now on a 1st place team. Dickey and Cueto have never done anything in their careers, this is Gio's 3rd consecutive 15+ win season... He should be at the top of the list.
I agree that Gio tends to be overlooked, but saying he's "hands down" the best pitcher in the league right now is a bit of a stretch. Cueto, Dickey and Kershaw are at the front if the pack with Miley, Cain, Hamels and Strasburg not far behind. Heck, I don't know if I'd even put Gio second-best on his OWN team with the way Zimmerman has pitched this year. Not a knock on Gio, the Nats rotation is just that filthy.

Also, people need to get over the idea that a player's overall body of work from their entire careers should be taken into consideration for this year's awards. What does Gio Gonzalez's 2008 stats have to do with the price of chicken on Halloween night? It's 2012 people! This is the only year that counts.
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Old 09-06-2012, 01:20 AM   #154 (permalink)
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Amazing game tonight, second consecutive game where he doesn't allow a run. Nats are also in first place in the entire league, playing for a penant not sitting in cruise control out of the playoffs like Dickey and the Mets.
Yeah Gio can deal with the best of them it's ashame the Phillies didn't hold on to him. The Nats are alot better than i thought they would be this year ,as long as they score run's they could run pretty deep in the playoffs .
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Old 09-06-2012, 02:03 AM   #155 (permalink)
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I agree that Gio tends to be overlooked, but saying he's "hands down" the best pitcher in the league right now is a bit of a stretch. Cueto, Dickey and Kershaw are at the front if the pack with Miley, Cain, Hamels and Strasburg not far behind. Heck, I don't know if I'd even put Gio second-best on his OWN team with the way Zimmerman has pitched this year. Not a knock on Gio, the Nats rotation is just that filthy.

Also, people need to get over the idea that a player's overall body of work from their entire careers should be taken into consideration for this year's awards. What does Gio Gonzalez's 2008 stats have to do with the price of chicken on Halloween night? It's 2012 people! This is the only year that counts.
As far as second on the team i disagree : war
Gio= 3.3
Stras=3.0
jordan=3.2
Jackson=2.2
Detwiler=2.1
As far as filthy i would agree.
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Old 09-06-2012, 08:08 AM   #156 (permalink)
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NL WAR of Pitchers

Cueto 6.0
.
.
.
.
.
Dickey 4.6
Kershaw 4.5

baseball-reference.com
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Old 09-06-2012, 09:51 AM   #157 (permalink)
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I agree that Gio tends to be overlooked, but saying he's "hands down" the best pitcher in the league right now is a bit of a stretch. Cueto, Dickey and Kershaw are at the front if the pack with Miley, Cain, Hamels and Strasburg not far behind. Heck, I don't know if I'd even put Gio second-best on his OWN team with the way Zimmerman has pitched this year. Not a knock on Gio, the Nats rotation is just that filthy.

Also, people need to get over the idea that a player's overall body of work from their entire careers should be taken into consideration for this year's awards. What does Gio Gonzalez's 2008 stats have to do with the price of chicken on Halloween night? It's 2012 people! This is the only year that counts.

If you ask any Nationals pitcher who has the best stuff on the team they will all tell you Jordan Zimmerman. With that being said when you ask any Nationals pitcher for 1 game who they want on the mound to get them a W they will all tell you Gio Gonzalez. Dickey you can argue with but I think he is a one year wonder, Cueto is having a solid season but his strikeouts are no where near where they need to be as he ranks 17th in the NL. Kershaw has 12 wins and 8 Losses both worse numbers than Gio and has allowed over 5 runs in 3 of his starts compared to Gio's one bad outing where he gave up 6 in a day game. Gio ranks top 10 in EVERY category including wins, innings pitched, strikeouts and whip. Dickey is the only other pitcher mentioned here than is also ranked top 10 in all of those.


Monday the Nationals face the Mets in NY, Dickey vs. Gio, winner of this game in my opinion takes the CY Young. They have faced each other twice and have split one and one.

People might disagree but you have to respect what someone does in previous years, not just hand them an award for one season and call it a day. Do it on a consistent basis and you will gain the respect that is deserved. Dickey and Cueto have not done that yet, Kershaw has earned his stripes which is why along with a few other things he is being mentioned in the running for Cy Young.
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Old 09-06-2012, 09:56 AM   #158 (permalink)
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If you ask any Nationals pitcher who has the best stuff on the team they will all tell you Jordan Zimmerman. With that being said when you ask any Nationals pitcher for 1 game who they want on the mound to get them a W they will all tell you Gio Gonzalez. Dickey you can argue with but I think he is a one year wonder, Cueto is having a solid season but his strikeouts are no where near where they need to be as he ranks 17th in the NL. Kershaw has 12 wins and 8 Losses both worse numbers than Gio and has allowed over 5 runs in 3 of his starts compared to Gio's one bad outing where he gave up 6 in a day game. Gio ranks top 10 in EVERY category including wins, innings pitched, strikeouts and whip. Dickey is the only other pitcher mentioned here than is also ranked top 10 in all of those.


Monday the Nationals face the Mets in NY, Dickey vs. Gio, winner of this game in my opinion takes the CY Young. They have faced each other twice and have split one and one.

People might disagree but you have to respect what someone does in previous years, not just hand them an award for one season and call it a day. Do it on a consistent basis and you will gain the respect that is deserved. Dickey and Cueto have not done that yet, Kershaw has earned his stripes which is why along with a few other things he is being mentioned in the running for Cy Young.
Gonzalez is outside the top 5 in ERA, no friggin way he wins the Cy. Sorry, that's just how it works. You can say "deserves" if you want, but he won't win.

Last time an NL Cy Young winner fell outside the top 5 in ERA? I'm not sure, Yahoo's data only goes back to 2000.

SIDE NOTE: The only time the winner fell outside the top three in ERA during that span was Clemens in 2004 (fifth overall). Because he's Roger Clemens.
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Old 09-06-2012, 09:57 AM   #159 (permalink)
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As far as second on the team i disagree : war
Gio= 3.3
Stras=3.0
jordan=3.2
Jackson=2.2
Detwiler=2.1
As far as filthy i would agree.
Well, I stand corrected. Updated WAR on baseball-reference.com this morning:

1. Cueto (CIN) 6.0
2. Dickey (NYM) 5.0
3. Kershaw (LAD) 4.5
4. Miley (ARI) 4.0
5. Hamels (PHI) 3.7
Gonzalez (WSN) 3.7

So with yesterday's start, Gio has worked himself into that second-tier mix. I honestly thought Zimmerman was closer to those guys, but it looks like he's worked his way out of the discussion with some especially poor outings as of late. Moral of the story: don't go off of what you think you know from three weeks ago

That said, I think this brings up an interesting discussion point on Strasburg. I love WAR as much as the next fanboy, and I've used it to defend Trout to death for the AL MVP race. But in Strasburg's case, I don't think it quite tells the full story. In the end, he'll be shut down and not a contender from a WAR perspective, but shouldn't he get some votes? In any event, I still think -- and you won't convince me otherwise -- that Stephen is the ace of this staff. I still expect Gio and Jordan to end the year with similar WAR numbers, which was the basis for my "second-best on his OWN team" comment.

In any event, all the Nationals pitchers have a lot of work to do to be legitimate contenders. WAR suggests that Cueto has a very good hold on it, but a lot can happen over the next few weeks. Los Angeles is clearly going for it this year, but their pitching continues to be a cause for concern. If they're still a few games back in the wildcard at the end of September, do they try to throw Kershaw out on fewer days' rest? I'd expect Dickey to finish strong, as well.

It should be a very exciting race down the stretch
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Old 09-06-2012, 10:13 AM   #160 (permalink)
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Gonzalez is outside the top 5 in ERA, no friggin way he wins the Cy. Sorry, that's just how it works. You can say "deserves" if you want, but he won't win.

Last time an NL Cy Young winner fell outside the top 5 in ERA? I'm not sure, Yahoo's data only goes back to 2000.

SIDE NOTE: The only time the winner fell outside the top three in ERA during that span was Clemens in 2004 (fifth overall). Because he's Roger Clemens.

LOL Gio is in 7th at 2.98, Miley in 5th is at 2.90... Gio has 5 starts left, 16 consecutive innings without a run scored, you don't think in 5 strong starts he can move into the top 5? Strasburg is 6th with a 2.94, .04 away from Gio.

I won't even dare to start comparing Wade Miley to Gio right now either, the dude has 70 less SO and has 11 less innings pitched and 9 losses.

If you do not think Gio can bring his ERA down your crazy. Last two outings he has dropped his ERA .30.. If he goes another two games of scoreless baseball which is very possible the way he is pitching right now he will be in the 2.7 range at minimum.

Tell me Gio needs to improve his numbers but don't tell me there is no way he has a shot of winning the Cy Young.
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Old 09-06-2012, 10:15 AM   #161 (permalink)
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It;s a great question. It could go many ways, but of course I feel Gio should win it all the way when you include value to his team...
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Old 09-06-2012, 10:19 AM   #162 (permalink)
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People might disagree but you have to respect what someone does in previous years, not just hand them an award for one season and call it a day. Do it on a consistent basis and you will gain the respect that is deserved. Dickey and Cueto have not done that yet, Kershaw has earned his stripes which is why along with a few other things he is being mentioned in the running for Cy Young.
Here's the thing though...the baseball season is 6 months long. If you've proven that you can hang with the best for 6 months, I'd say that's pretty consistent.

If Luke Hochevar goes 18-10 with a 2.30 ERA and a 0.95 WHIP next year, do you immediately dismiss him because he's been so...average(?) since he came to Kansas City? I would hope not.

Please also have a look at Chris Carpenter's 2005 season. This guy was the living embodiment of mediocrity from the time he came up with Toronto in '97 until '02 (ERAs of 5.09, 4.37, 4.38, 6.26, 4.09 and 5.28). He sat out 2003 due to injury and came back in 2004 to do throw a 3.46...not exactly ace stuff. Then in 2005 -- seemingly out of nowhere -- he hurled over 240 innings with a 2.83 ERA and a 1.05 WHIP. This is probably one of the best recent examples of an ascension from mediocrity to an elite-level, Cy Young contender (spoiler alert: he won that year).

Pitchers have breakout years; some, later than others. To say that a player shouldn't be considered for the Cy Young in their breakout year...eh, that doesn't seem right to me.
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Old 09-06-2012, 10:23 AM   #163 (permalink)
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Also: let's please not use strikeouts as a definitive measure of why one pitcher is better than another. If we do, someone PLEASE build a case for Max Scherzer being deserving of the AL Cy Young.
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Old 09-06-2012, 10:24 AM   #164 (permalink)
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This year has got to be Dickey. He is not the most valuable, but I believe the CY Young goes to the best pitcher for that season, and this season I believe its Dickey. Is he the best pitcher in the NL, no. Is he the best pitcher in the NL this season, yes.

games - 29
games started - 28
w- 18
l - 4
cg -5
sho - 3
ip - 198
h - 158
r - 64
er - 58
hr - 18 (he does give up a lot of these)
bb - 45
k -195
era - 2.64
whip - 1.03
baa - .221
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Old 09-06-2012, 10:29 AM   #165 (permalink)
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Here is some food for thought:

Brandon Webb in 2006
10th in Strikeouts
1st in NL Cy Young voting

Some guys just don't need to miss bats to get their outs. Lots of guys have made it as ground-ball pitchers. Sure, its not as sexy as lots of Ks, but its as effective and in some cases (with runners on), even more effective as you're able to induce the double play much more.
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Old 09-06-2012, 10:35 AM   #166 (permalink)
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LOL Gio is in 7th at 2.98, Miley in 5th is at 2.90... Gio has 5 starts left, 16 consecutive innings without a run scored, you don't think in 5 strong starts he can move into the top 5? Strasburg is 6th with a 2.94, .04 away from Gio.

I won't even dare to start comparing Wade Miley to Gio right now either, the dude has 70 less SO and has 11 less innings pitched and 9 losses.

If you do not think Gio can bring his ERA down your crazy. Last two outings he has dropped his ERA .30.. If he goes another two games of scoreless baseball which is very possible the way he is pitching right now he will be in the 2.7 range at minimum.

Tell me Gio needs to improve his numbers but don't tell me there is no way he has a shot of winning the Cy Young.
Dude ... your homer is showing.

I never said Gonzalez can't bring down his ERA, not once. But where the numbers stand (i.e. if the season were to end today), he wouldn't stand a chance. He'd be lucky to finish 3rd, even though he's leading the league in wins.

You're the one who said if Gonzalez beats Dickey in the next matchup, he should win the award. I ... just don't know where to start with that. You're clearly valuing wins above all else, and if we're going to do that we should probably use WAR instead ... in which case, the award goes to Cueto.

Again ... I'm not saying Gio can't win. I just think he won't. He certainly wouldn't if the season ended today. And for some reason, you think he will pitch better than everyone else down the stretch based on his last two starts. I'd argue more for regression toward the mean.
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Old 09-06-2012, 10:41 AM   #167 (permalink)
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Dude ... your homer is showing.

I never said Gonzalez can't bring down his ERA, not once. But where the numbers stand (i.e. if the season were to end today), he wouldn't stand a chance. He'd be lucky to finish 3rd, even though he's leading the league in wins.

You're the one who said if Gonzalez beats Dickey in the next matchup, he should win the award. I ... just don't know where to start with that. You're clearly valuing wins above all else, and if we're going to do that we should probably use WAR instead ... in which case, the award goes to Cueto.

Again ... I'm not saying Gio can't win. I just think he won't. He certainly wouldn't if the season ended today. And for some reason, you think he will pitch better than everyone else down the stretch based on his last two starts. I'd argue more for regression toward the mean.

Haha I am actually from Miami not a DC homer but have a biased opinion because I am related to GG.................


Any how I know chances of him winning are slim because he has some work to do but if Cueto and Dickey get blown up the next couple of games he can easily slide in there. I don't see Kershaw being much of a factor, also look at team wins and value, Nationals came out of no where and shocked everyone. Gio has definitely been a big part of that!
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Old 09-06-2012, 10:44 AM   #168 (permalink)
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Here's the thing though...the baseball season is 6 months long. If you've proven that you can hang with the best for 6 months, I'd say that's pretty consistent.

If Luke Hochevar goes 18-10 with a 2.30 ERA and a 0.95 WHIP next year, do you immediately dismiss him because he's been so...average(?) since he came to Kansas City? I would hope not.

Please also have a look at Chris Carpenter's 2005 season. This guy was the living embodiment of mediocrity from the time he came up with Toronto in '97 until '02 (ERAs of 5.09, 4.37, 4.38, 6.26, 4.09 and 5.28). He sat out 2003 due to injury and came back in 2004 to do throw a 3.46...not exactly ace stuff. Then in 2005 -- seemingly out of nowhere -- he hurled over 240 innings with a 2.83 ERA and a 1.05 WHIP. This is probably one of the best recent examples of an ascension from mediocrity to an elite-level, Cy Young contender (spoiler alert: he won that year).

Pitchers have breakout years; some, later than others. To say that a player shouldn't be considered for the Cy Young in their breakout year...eh, that doesn't seem right to me.

I realize what your saying and you have a valid point, I am just basing my opinion and the opinion a lot of guys involved in professional baseball have. Do it on a consistent basis, don't give me one fluke season and then fade away. Dickey is a tremendous story this year but truth is its not likely to happen again and he has never proven anything. That knuckleball is a a gimmick lol
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Old 09-06-2012, 10:45 AM   #169 (permalink)
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Haha I am actually from Miami not a DC homer but have a biased opinion because I am related to GG.................


Any how I know chances of him winning are slim because he has some work to do but if Cueto and Dickey get blown up the next couple of games he can easily slide in there. I don't see Kershaw being much of a factor, also look at team wins and value, Nationals came out of no where and shocked everyone. Gio has definitely been a big part of that!
Now ... all of that I will agree with completely. Dude has been sick. But we are living in a Pitcher's Era, and unfortunately 20 wins, 200 K's, and a 3.00 ERA doesn't guarantee anything. See Ian Kennedy last year. Sick stats ... finished 4th.

How are you related to Gonzalez? That's pretty awesome.
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Old 09-06-2012, 10:47 AM   #170 (permalink)
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Now ... all of that I will agree with completely. Dude has been sick. But we are living in a Pitcher's Era, and unfortunately 20 wins, 200 K's, and a 3.00 ERA doesn't guarantee anything. See Ian Kennedy last year. Sick stats ... finished 4th.

How are you related to Gonzalez? That's pretty awesome.

He is my cousin, just came back from DC actually watching him throw his first complete game shutout! I told him me being there had a lot to do with it! haha
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Old 09-06-2012, 10:48 AM   #171 (permalink)
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I realize what your saying and you have a valid point, I am just basing my opinion and the opinion a lot of guys involved in professional baseball have. Do it on a consistent basis, don't give me one fluke season and then fade away. Dickey is a tremendous story this year but truth is its not likely to happen again and he has never proven anything. That knuckleball is a a gimmick lol
Don't tell that to Tim Wakefield and his 200 career wins ...

Dickey's brand of knuckleball might be a fluke, but I don't think so. It's unlike anything most hitters have ever seen. A 78-mph knuckler? Forget it. As long as he can continue to throw it well and control it, we'll continue to see sub-3 ERA seasons from him.
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Old 09-06-2012, 10:49 AM   #172 (permalink)
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Don't tell that to Tim Wakefield and his 200 career wins ...

Dickey's brand of knuckleball might be a fluke, but I don't think so. It's unlike anything most hitters have ever seen. A 78-mph knuckler? Forget it. As long as he can continue to throw it well and control it, we'll continue to see sub-3 ERA seasons from him.

Tim Wakefield did it over a span of 19 years, I give him respect. If we get 5 out of Dickey I would be shocked.
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Old 09-06-2012, 10:50 AM   #173 (permalink)
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Tim Wakefield did it over a span of 19 years, I give him respect. If we get 5 out of Dickey I would be shocked.
Three down, two to go ... prepare to be shocked
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Old 09-06-2012, 10:55 AM   #174 (permalink)
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Three down, two to go ... prepare to be shocked
In 2010 you could make a case for a good year, 2012 case for a great year.. 2011 not so much, need to see more out of him. Heck of a nice guy though I will tell you that.


Question I ask myself when I determine these things are: If I had one do or die game to win would I be comfortable with this guy on the mound for me? With Dickey I don't think too many people are comfortable with saying yes to that question. He needs to prove it over time. Gio had 15+ wins in consecutive seasons in the AL which it is MUCH are harder to pitch and came over the to NL and is dominating in his first year.
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Old 09-06-2012, 10:56 AM   #175 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Swingman View Post
I realize what your saying and you have a valid point, I am just basing my opinion and the opinion a lot of guys involved in professional baseball have. Do it on a consistent basis, don't give me one fluke season and then fade away. Dickey is a tremendous story this year but truth is its not likely to happen again and he has never proven anything. That knuckleball is a a gimmick lol
I hear ya, I happen to like Gio a lot (and not just because I found out you're related to him, which is very cool, BTW) and I'd pick him to anchor my rotation in the long-term over Cueto, Dickey, and even Hamels and Cain to some degree. But from April 2012 to September 2012, Cueto and Dickey have shown they're just a little better. It's really a two-man race right now with Kershaw nipping at their heels. After Clayton, things start to get murky.
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