NL CY YOUNG

[Swingman]

Originally Posted by JohnAndrew

I hear ya, I happen to like Gio a lot (and not just because I found out you're related to him, which is very cool, BTW) and I'd pick him to anchor my rotation in the long-term over Cueto, Dickey, and even Hamels and Cain to some degree. But from April 2012 to September 2012, Cueto and Dickey have shown they're just a little better. It's really a two-man race right now with Kershaw nipping at their heels. After Clayton, things start to get murky.

There are 5 starts left for Gio, I agree with you he is trailing a bit but if he beats Dickey and the Nats rough him up like they could and Cueto drops one or two more after his recent loss, I think things can take a big swing. Gio has always been a 2h pitcher, he is showing it as the season progresses.

[btimm]

Originally Posted by burgbasher

As far as second on the team i disagree : war
Gio= 3.3
Stras=3.0
jordan=3.2
Jackson=2.2
Detwiler=2.1
As far as filthy i would agree.

When people use WAR as a debate-ender, I immediately dismiss their opinions. It is a stat to be used as an evaluation tool, not for a totality determination people.

[JohnAndrew]

Originally Posted by Swingman

Question I ask myself when I determine these things are: If I had one do or die game to win would I be comfortable with this guy on the mound for me?

This is an interesting baseball question, but I don't really think it's a great reflection on someone's "Cy Young resume", so to speak. Zack Greinke is a great pitcher (maybe not this year) and I'd love to have him in my rotation, but there's no way in hell he's my go-to guy in a do-or-die playoff situation. Chris Sale has had a Cy Young-caliber season, but I'm perhaps a little hesitant to have him start in a one-game playoff when I have a guy like Jake Peavy at the ready, who hasn't quite had the season that Sale's had but has far more experience.

It's a good discussion point and I agree that this is likely the perspective that the pro baseball folks have, but the players and managers don't vote for the Cy Young.

[JohnAndrew]

Originally Posted by btimm

When people use WAR as a debate-ender, I immediately dismiss their opinions. It is a stat to be used as an evaluation tool, not for a totality determination people.

I definitely don't think a 0.3-point differential between three guys is a debate-ender, but when I see WAR stats that look like this...

1. Trout (LAA) 9.3
2. Cano (NYY) 6.2
3. Verlander (DET) 6.0
4. Cabrera (DET) 5.9

...and someone tries to tell me that Miguel Cabrera is hands-down the American League MVP, I have to chuckle a little bit.

But please don't get me started on the AL MVP front

[JohnAndrew]

Originally Posted by Swingman

There are 5 starts left for Gio, I agree with you he is trailing a bit but if he beats Dickey and the Nats rough him up like they could and Cueto drops one or two more after his recent loss, I think things can take a big swing. Gio has always been a 2h pitcher, he is showing it as the season progresses.

I agree, it's definitely not over and a couple of very bad starts from both those guys coupled with a couple of very strong outings from their pursuers could make things very interesting again.

[btimm]

Originally Posted by Swingman

If you ask any Nationals pitcher who has the best stuff on the team they will all tell you Jordan Zimmerman. With that being said when you ask any Nationals pitcher for 1 game who they want on the mound to get them a W they will all tell you Gio Gonzalez. Dickey you can argue with but I think he is a one year wonder, Cueto is having a solid season but his strikeouts are no where near where they need to be as he ranks 17th in the NL. Kershaw has 12 wins and 8 Losses both worse numbers than Gio and has allowed over 5 runs in 3 of his starts compared to Gio's one bad outing where he gave up 6 in a day game. Gio ranks top 10 in EVERY category including wins, innings pitched, strikeouts and whip. Dickey is the only other pitcher mentioned here than is also ranked top 10 in all of those.

Monday the Nationals face the Mets in NY, Dickey vs. Gio, winner of this game in my opinion takes the CY Young. They have faced each other twice and have split one and one.

People might disagree but you have to respect what someone does in previous years, not just hand them an award for one season and call it a day. Do it on a consistent basis and you will gain the respect that is deserved. Dickey and Cueto have not done that yet, Kershaw has earned his stripes which is why along with a few other things he is being mentioned in the running for Cy Young.

You are discussing the 2012 - yes, 2012, Cy Young Award. Not the multiple year Cy Young Award. So one year wonders get the same weight as a historically good pitcher, this is common sense.

Gio literally won't finish top 3. Dickey is better this year, with a lower ERA, better WHIP, and 23 more IP in the same # of starts, it's not even debatable really. Kershaw as well has a better ERA, lower WHIP, and more IP/start. And Cueto really is a better option as well than Gio.

[lb_sa]

Originally Posted by seancoyle

He's having a great year no doubt, but what does what they did in their careers have anything to do with the Cy young award this year?

Exactly lol. And Cueto has really only been pitching for 4 seasons, and last year he had a 2.31 ERA and the year before a solid ERA as well. So in his limited time, he has been good his entire career.

IMO, as of right now..

1a. Cueto
1b. Dickey
3. Chapman
4. Kershaw
5. Gonzalez

[btimm]

Originally Posted by JohnAndrew

I definitely don't think a 0.3-point differential between three guys is a debate-ender, but when I see WAR stats that look like this...

1. Trout (LAA) 9.3
2. Cano (NYY) 6.2
3. Verlander (DET) 6.0
4. Cabrera (DET) 5.9

...and someone tries to tell me that Miguel Cabrera is hands-down the American League MVP, I have to chuckle a little bit.

But please don't get me started on the AL MVP front

I agree with you about a large delta, but at the same time, while I personally think Trout is the AL MVP at this point in time, I also don't think it is by as much as that gap in WAR would have people believe.

[Swingman]

Originally Posted by btimm

You are discussing the 2012 - yes, 2012, Cy Young Award. Not the multiple year Cy Young Award. So one year wonders get the same weight as a historically good pitcher, this is common sense.

Gio literally won't finish top 3. Dickey is better this year, with a lower ERA, better WHIP, and 23 more IP in the same # of starts, it's not even debatable really. Kershaw as well has a better ERA, lower WHIP, and more IP/start. And Cueto really is a better option as well than Gio.

Kershaw is the only one out of the people you have named that hasn't been a bum their entire career before this year. Coaches and Pitchers do not vote for Cy Young but ask around guys like Josh Beckett, CC, Doc, Cliff Lee, etc etc Guys who have been around the block and they will tell you they don't think it is deserving of a one year fluke to win the Cy Young compared to someone who has done it in BOTH leagues. Dickey is 37, his career up to this point has been a failure. Gio is pitching behind the best team in all of baseball, Dickey is going out there stress free, his team has been out of it since June. Cueto has not had better stuff than Gio this year either. Cueto gives up his leades to Chapman who is nothing but shut down.. Check how many blown saves Brad Lidge gave up for Gio earlier in the season... He should have 20 wins easily at this point... I rest my case

If ERA is all that matters and SO and the rest don't why isn't anyone making a case for the 14-2, 4th ranked ERA Kyle Lohse?.............. Exactly

[Swingman]

Originally Posted by lb_sa

Exactly lol. And Cueto has really only been pitching for 4 seasons, and last year he had a 2.31 ERA and the year before a solid ERA as well. So in his limited time, he has been good his entire career.

IMO, as of right now..

1a. Cueto
1b. Dickey
3. Chapman
4. Kershaw
5. Gonzalez

Pretty sad you would put Chapman, a ONE inning pitcher in this discussion. Another guy that has never done anything in his career. Now I understand how people outside of the realm of baseball view things. Someone is a clubhouse would laugh if they saw Chapman above Kershaw and Gio in Cy Young who are both pitching great. Fernando Rodney should win hands down in the AL if this was the case because he is in a league of his own.

Crazy thing is, and not to turn this into a race issue because that's not what this thread is about but check the last time a latin/black won the NL Cy Young.. 1997 Pedro Martinez, before that since 85 and 81, baseball is all about politics boys, I don't know if you guys are starting to figure that out yet.

[calculusdork]

Originally Posted by Swingman

Pretty sad you would put Chapman, a ONE inning pitcher in this discussion. Another guy that has never done anything in his career. Now I understand how people outside of the realm of baseball view things. Someone is a clubhouse would laugh if they saw Chapman above Kershaw and Gio in Cy Young who are both pitching great. Fernando Rodney should win hands down in the AL if this was the case because he is in a league of his own.

Crazy thing is, and not to turn this into a race issue because that's not what this thread is about but check the last time a latin/black won the NL Cy Young.. 1997 Pedro Martinez, before that since 85 and 81, baseball is all about politics boys, I don't know if you guys are starting to figure that out yet.

Again, I think you're having trouble distinguishing between who you think should win and the actual (or predicted) results. Chapman may very well finish 3rd. SEE: Eric Gagne, 2003.

[JohnAndrew]

Originally Posted by Swingman

Kershaw is the only one out of the people you have named that hasn't been a bum their entire career before this year. Coaches and Pitchers do not vote for Cy Young but ask around guys like Josh Beckett, CC, Doc, Cliff Lee, etc etc Guys who have been around the block and they will tell you they don't think it is deserving of a one year fluke to win the Cy Young compared to someone who has done it in BOTH leagues. Dickey is 37, his career up to this point has been a failure. Gio is pitching behind the best team in all of baseball, Dickey is going out there stress free, his team has been out of it since June. Cueto has not had better stuff than Gio this year either. Cueto gives up his leades to Chapman who is nothing but shut down.. Check how many blown saves Brad Lidge gave up for Gio earlier in the season... He should have 20 wins easily at this point... I rest my case

If ERA is all that matters and SO and the rest don't why isn't anyone making a case for the 14-2, 4th ranked ERA Kyle Lohse?.............. Exactly

I don't want to tackle this whole post...all I ask is that you point me to any instance where Josh Beckett's opinion about anything has mattered. The culinary accolades of fried chicken does not count.

Also: no one has made a case for Lohse because, well, it doesn't seem like any of us WANT him to win. I could if I wanted to...8th in innings pitched, doesn't walk a lot of guys or put a lot of runners on, a nice ERA...it's just not a really strong resume. I expect he'll get some votes at the end of the year, perhaps even as much as Gio. He's clearly not in the upper tier though.

[JohnAndrew]

Originally Posted by Swingman

Crazy thing is, and not to turn this into a race issue because that's not what this thread is about but check the last time a latin/black won the NL Cy Young.. 1997 Pedro Martinez, before that since 85 and 81, baseball is all about politics boys, I don't know if you guys are starting to figure that out yet.

Err, Felix Hernandez anyone?

EDIT: Sorry, didn't notice you said NL Cy Young. Although I don't think the politics of the NL are different than the AL.

[Swingman]

Originally Posted by JohnAndrew

I don't want to tackle this whole post...all I ask is that you point me to any instance where Josh Beckett's opinion about anything has mattered. The culinary accolades of fried chicken does not count.

Also: no one has made a case for Lohse because, well, it doesn't seem like any of us WANT him to win. I could if I wanted to...8th in innings pitched, doesn't walk a lot of guys or put a lot of runners on, a nice ERA...it's just not a really strong resume. I expect he'll get some votes at the end of the year, perhaps even as much as Gio. He's clearly not in the upper tier though.

Your right it doesn't matter what Beckett has to say, I am just giving you a feel for what people outside the voting realm think, the people who actually put on the uniform, not the ones who are sitting a suite all game.

[Swingman]

Originally Posted by calculusdork

Again, I think you're having trouble distinguishing between who you think should win and the actual (or predicted) results. Chapman may very well finish 3rd. SEE: Eric Gagne, 2003.

See that's where your wrong though, I didn't say Gio SHOULD win but he should definitely be mentioned next to Dickey, Cueto and Kershaw. For people to say he's not pitching on that tier is just plain ignorant.

[Swingman]

Originally Posted by JohnAndrew

Err, Felix Hernandez anyone?

EDIT: Sorry, didn't notice you said NL Cy Young. Although I don't think the politics of the NL are different than the AL.

Someone call Ryan Braun and ask him how he got off... POLITICS

[JohnAndrew]

Originally Posted by Swingman

Your right it doesn't matter what Beckett has to say, I am just giving you a feel for what people outside the voting realm think, the people who actually put on the uniform, not the ones who are sitting a suite all game.

Right, but the people sitting in the suites and casting the votes are making peanuts for a chance to cover the game they love. The people putting on the uniforms make lots of money for setting themselves apart from their fellow players. I don't know Roy or C.C. or Josh personally and I know nothing of being a major league baseball player, but I work for a salary in a field where there is constantly competition for open positions. I don't want to see a huge influx of young upstarts gunning for a chance to do my line of work because it doesn't give me any leverage in negotiation knowing that there are younger and potentially better people out there who will work for less money.

If I'm Josh Beckett, of course I don't want an unestablished guy to get awards and recognition because that's the same guy that's gonna take a job from me when I try to get a new contract.

[JohnAndrew]

Originally Posted by Swingman

Someone call Ryan Braun and ask him how he got off... POLITICS

So he wouldn't have gotten off if he'd played for the Indians or someone else in the AL Central? I don't follow. Felix is Venezuelan and won the AL Cy Young in 2010, I'm not sure why you think race is a factor at all in the voting.

[Gio47]

Gio has more wins and a lot more strikeouts than Cueto. I got Gio ahead of Cueto right now in Cy Young. He is still behind Dickey but that could change. If Gio can get the win against the Mets in his next start vs Dickey, I think it will be a neck and neck run to the finish. Gio's best month by far in his career is September and it's been showing lately. The Nationals in 1st place is huge for Gio as well. Right now it's Dickey but in 5 starts a whole lot can change especially with them facing off against each other next game.

[Gio47]

Originally Posted by JohnAndrew

So he wouldn't have gotten off if he'd played for the Indians or someone else in the AL Central? I don't follow. Felix is Venezuelan and won the AL Cy Young in 2010, I'm not sure why you think race is a factor at all in the voting.

Bud Selig doesn't own the Indians so the answer is No. He absolutely wouldn't have gotten off if he played on Cleveland.

[lb_sa]

Originally Posted by Swingman

See that's where your wrong though, I didn't say Gio SHOULD win but he should definitely be mentioned next to Dickey, Cueto and Kershaw. For people to say he's not pitching on that tier is just plain ignorant.

And for you to say that Chapman shouldn't be in the discussion is just plain ignorant. He is having one of the most dominate seasons in MLB history.

A lot can change in then next few weeks, but that was my top 5. I'm sorry that it wasn't who you want to win at the top. Gio doesn't deserve to be in the top 2. He is in the discussion for 3rd at this point. I'm entitled to my opinion though and I apologize that it wasn't of your approval by ranking Chapman 3rd at this point for the award. There are some that say he should win it so I don't see why you think that is out of the realm of possibility.

[jbhofmann]

People who think Cueto hasn't put up these types of numbers haven't followed the guy at all. For the last two years Cueto has a 2.44 ERA. He had a great ERA last year but just didn't qualify do to missing some starts.

[JohnAndrew]

Please guys, we need to get over this idea that wins are the end-all-be-all of pitching stats. Have a look at this: 2012 MLB Baseball Pitching Statistics and League Leaders - Major League Baseball - ESPN

This is a list of pitchers sorted by the average runs scored in support of them. Take a look at who's number 3.

Now take a look at where Cueto is. Take a look at where Kershaw is. Do my eyes deceive me? Nope. Neither of those guys is in the top 40 of run support in the National League.

18 wins looks very nice, indeed. But put Gio on the Mariners or the Astros and I don't think it's very likely he has the same success.

[Swingman]

Originally Posted by JohnAndrew

Please guys, we need to get over this idea that wins are the end-all-be-all of pitching stats. Have a look at this: 2012 MLB Baseball Pitching Statistics and League Leaders - Major League Baseball - ESPN

This is a list of pitchers sorted by the average runs scored in support of them. Take a look at who's number 3.

Now take a look at where Cueto is. Take a look at where Kershaw is. Do my eyes deceive me? Nope. Neither of those guys is in the top 40 of run support in the National League.

18 wins looks very nice, indeed. But put Gio on the Mariners or the Astros and I don't think it's very likely he has the same success.

Did you forget Gio played on Oakland when the weren't winning 20 straight? Team was down right terrible at hitting when he played there. Still won 15+ in consecutive seasons

[jbhofmann]

Cueto pitches in one of the worst pitchers parks in MLB while giving up half the dingers that ole Dickey gives up. The LaRussa slight of Dickey at the break (Cueto's was borderline vindictive) was certainly enough to let everyone know that his pitching style just doesn't jive with those in MLB. If you have to rely on the length of your fingernails and not your arm, then that's probably not a Cy Young pitcher to me.