AL MVP- Trout or Cabrera

[Tugarpj]

Originally Posted by VWBUS1978

Trout - ROY
Miggy - MVP (still hoping he wins the Triple Crown)

end of story, IMO.

Yep. Trout didn't get his team to the playoffs. Miggy did and in dramatic fashion. He wins or there is no God.

[xbignick]

Originally Posted by calculusdork

Voters won't ignore the fact that Trout's WAR is 4 points higher. Just sayin'.

A lot of them will ignore total value in favor of harping on a potential triple crown that obviously doesn't contain the three things most central to player analysis, and others will take team success into account. It's not Trout's fault the Angels aren't in the playoffs, however, because of him they came as close as they did.

[alwayson22]

Trout = .325/.398/.564
Cabrera = .329/.393/.603

Once you add in Trout's base running and defensive edges, I think Trout should win it. Cabrera is an absolute monster, but I think Trout has been the most valuable. The Angels have also won more games (on a tougher division), so I don't think the playoff argument really furthers Cabrera's case.

[xbignick]

Your goal is a dollar to make the playoffs.

One player's worth is 30 cents. But you add him to 60 cents of value and do not reach your goal.

The other player's worth is 25 cents (in this scenario). You add him to 75 cents of value and reach your goal.

The 30 is still greater than the 25. The value of the individual does not change because of the total you added it too. It's constant in this, independent of the rest.

Oh, and are those who said "this player got his team to the playoffs" going to ignore how tough each division is? Using their logic, let's blame Cabrera for the Tigers not winning with a bigger lead. The AL West is clearly a better division.

[JohnAndrew]

Originally Posted by AlphaNOmega06

Sort of hard to believe some you still believe trout has a chance at the MVP race after Detroit clinched the central division on top of Cabrera being pretty close to the triple crown. While i do agree trout had a phenomenal season, the fact of the matter is that LA isn't even in contention for the playoffs and without Cabrera the tigers probably wouldn't make the playoffs at all.

This argument makes less sense when you consider the trajectory of the Angels' season. Los Angeles dug a big hole for themselves early on and maybe they don't even sniff contention in September if they wait another month or two to bring Trout up?

Trout is the only reason that team had a shot as recently as last night. Not Weaver. Not Pujols. Not Hipster C.J. Wilson. Trout.

[AlphaNOmega06]

Originally Posted by xbignick

Value is constant. It's an individual award that shouldn't be dependent on factors, such as team success, that he cannot control totally but can only contribute to. He contributed the most overall value to his team, when you account for all aspects the game considers.

Now the award leaves room for the definition of value, but with that it also leaves room for debate and the logical side is Trout for MVP.

I'd agree trout would win MVP this year IF Cabrera wasn't as close as he is to the triple crown. Its hard to deny that in the factors considering the last winner was what in the late 60's?

[xbignick]

Originally Posted by AlphaNOmega06

I'd agree trout would win MVP this year IF Cabrera wasn't as close as he is to the triple crown. Its hard to deny that in the factors considering the last winner was what in the late 60's?

Well, Verlander won the pitching crown just last year, and the last batting one was in 1967, I believe. Williams won it twice and didn't win MVP. People say voters hated him, which may be partly true, but he won MVP in years around those years, so TC has never guaranteed MVP and it makes no logical sense to. The statistics it uses are obviously not the best in individual player analysis and think of the logic behind it, if I drive in one more run, hit one more homerun, etc. or don't I can win or lose something based on that single contribution. It's simply silly.

I'll even bring you to what Law said the other day:
"Trout has 30 HR and 48 SB. According to @baseball_ref this is only the third such season in MLB history - rarer than a Triple Crown, in fact"

[calculusdork]

For those of you saying the Tigers making the playoffs (and the Angels not making it) should make a difference ... consider that the Angels have a better record.

What an ugly twist of fate it would be if Trout went crazy for the last two games, eclipsing Cabrera in BA, taking away the Triple Crown and also winning the MVP. Not necessarily what I'm rooting for, but it would make for lots of excitement.

[JohnAndrew]

Originally Posted by calculusdork

Voters won't ignore the fact that Trout's WAR is 4 points higher. Just sayin'.

Seriously people...if Cabrera had that kind of lead, you know the Tigers fans would be tooting the WAR horn. But instead, since it so OBVIOUSLY favors Trout, it's a gimmicky formula that is tailored to his play. OBVIOUSLY.

If the season ended tonight, Trout would have a WAR of 10.7. Here are some other guys that posted a WAR in the neighborhood of 10.7 in a single season:

10.7 - 1946 - Ted Williams (MVP)
10.7 - 1973 - Tom Seaver (Cy Young)
10.6 - 1972 - Gaylord Perry (Cy Young)
10.4 - 2004 - Barry Bonds (MVP)
10.4 - 1982 - Robin Yount (MVP)
10.4 - 1954 - Willie Mays (MVP)

We're literally talking about some of the greatest seasons of all-time. Since 2000, the only guys with a higher WAR were Bonds in 2001 and 2002 (11.6 both years, MVP both years) and Pedro in 2000 (Cy Young).

[Chaddie84]

Is this really even a conversation? Triple Crown will take it!

[JohnAndrew]

Originally Posted by calculusdork

For those of you saying the Tigers making the playoffs (and the Angels not making it) should make a difference ... consider that the Angels have a better record.

Oh...my...gosh, the AL Central is such a joke.

Originally Posted by calculusdork

What an ugly twist of fate it would be if Trout went crazy for the last two games, eclipsing Cabrera in BA, taking away the Triple Crown and also winning the MVP. Not necessarily what I'm rooting for, but it would make for lots of excitement.

Ugly twist of fate? Or absolutely beautiful?

[JohnAndrew]

Originally Posted by Chaddie84

Is this really even a conversation? Triple Crown will take it!

Yes! WAR domination will take it!

[DtigersFan]

Originally Posted by VWBUS1978

Trout - ROY
Miggy - MVP (still hoping he wins the Triple Crown)

end of story, IMO.

This. Some people cannot be happy with just the ROY for Trout. Come on, Cabrera is having one of the best statistical seasons ever, he's going to win the first triple crown in 45 years, and he launched his team into the playoffs.

[groundsupport]

Originally Posted by xbignick

Your goal is a dollar to make the playoffs.

One player's worth is 30 cents. But you add him to 60 cents of value and do not reach your goal.

The other player's worth is 25 cents (in this scenario). You add him to 75 cents of value and reach your goal.

The 30 is still greater than the 25. The value of the individual does not change because of the total you added it too. It's constant in this, independent of the rest.

Oh, and are those who said "this player got his team to the playoffs" going to ignore how tough each division is? Using their logic, let's blame Cabrera for the Tigers not winning with a bigger lead. The AL West is clearly a better division.

Yep Mike Trout should win the MVP because he plays in a better division and the Angels couldn't beat out the Oakland A's with their 152 million dollar payroll and making a major deal before the deadline to bring in Zack Grienke.

3 Aces from last year. 2 Started game 1 in the LCS.
Jered Weaver, CJ Wislon, Zack Grienke, Dan Haren, and Ervin Santana

Detroit
Justin Verlander, Doug Fister, Max Sherzer, Rick Porcello, Drew Smyly, Antibal Sanchez



Trout hit .257 in september and had 26 hits, 5 homers and 6 RBIs. His team couldn't overtake the A's. Mediorce at best numbers.

Miggy hit .308 in september, had 32 hits, 10 homers, and 27 RBIs and helped moved his team from 2nd place into first place. MVP numbers.

I find it hard to believe that the 152 million dollar team had to count on a rookie who makes 480k, just to make the playoffs and they couldn't do it.

[jlzinck]

Originally Posted by groundsupport

Trout stole a bunch of bases , made a couple great catches and his team still didn't make the playoffs. Lets give him MVP. He obviously deserves it more then someone who puts up numbers that were only ever duplicated by Babe Ruth and Lou Gerhig.

El Oh El. I love homers.....Trouts team has a better record that Cabrera's.
In fact were Detroit in the same division they would be in 4th place.

Stat nerds still say Trout is a better MVP vote.

Me I don't care. Either is a quality MVP.

Bottom line is that after this year we don't have to hear how the last time the Triple Crown was won it was by Yaz in 67.

If Miggy were still drinking and beating his wife he would still be a better person than that jerk Yaz.

[burke23]

Originally Posted by groundsupport

Yep Mike Trout should win the MVP because he plays in a better division and the Angels couldn't beat out the Oakland A's with their 152 million dollar payroll and making a major deal before the deadline to bring in Zack Grienke.

3 Aces from last year. 2 Started game 1 in the LCS.
Jered Weaver, CJ Wislon, Zack Grienke, Dan Haren, and Ervin Santana

Detroit
Justin Verlander, Doug Fister, Max Sherzer, Rick Porcello, Drew Smyly, Antibal Sanchez



Trout hit .257 in september and had 26 hits, 5 homers and 6 RBIs. His team couldn't overtake the A's. Mediorce at best numbers.

Miggy hit .308 in september, had 32 hits, 10 homers, and 27 RBIs and helped moved his team from 2nd place into first place. MVP numbers.

I find it hard to believe that the 152 million dollar team had to count on a rookie who makes 480k, just to make the playoffs and they couldn't do it.

Bringing in the team factor again - can't believe trout is responsible for all 24 of his teammates. Interesting. Also had no idea September is the only month that counted.

All kidding aside, Miggy had a great season, but not one for the ages (a slash line of .329/.398/.608 is almost a mirror of Pujols career albeit with a lower OBP). Also, defense matters. I do think there is something to be said for Cabrera's steadiness throughout the season as a lot of Trouts power came over 2 months. I think Cabrera wins, but I can't say it's the right choice.

[groundsupport]

September is the month that decided who makes the playoffs and who doesn't. Just saying.

[burke23]

Originally Posted by groundsupport

September is the month that decided who makes the playoffs and who doesn't. Just saying.

So why are games play in April through August? Wins and losses count there. If a team misses the playoffs by one game, could they not look back at a blown Win in April and say 'what if?', or does it have to be the last loss of the season that matters?

[JohnAndrew]

Originally Posted by groundsupport

September is the month that decided who makes the playoffs and who doesn't. Just saying.

Not that this has anything to do with the MVP discussion...but whatever.

The Angels are 18-9 in September and Detroit is 16-12. By contrast, the Tigers were 11-11 in April while Los Angeles went 8-15. One of the biggest reasons why the Angels are going home tomorrow is because they had a sh!tty start to the season.

Anyways, carry on...

[DtigersFan]

I just want to remind some people of the poll results in this thread. Right now Cabrera has 24 more votes than Trout. I know we aren't the official voters, but I think this is the general consensus here and likely for the real voters.

[btimm]

Good night, I really wish people would stop thinking WAR means everything. I grow to despise that douchebag Bill James. I shouldn't though, as it is not his fault so many people don't understand that WAR is a subjective formula. It is impossible to create a completely objective stat, stop treating it like it is!! Seriously, I am about to be on WAR tilt.

People who feel Trout is the MVP have a legitimate argument to make. Same with people who think Cabrera is the MVP. If it wasn't close, there wouldn't be such an immense debate. But please, use your brains, think about the game, and stop using WAR as an absolute! Use things like the triple crown, use the argument that Cabrera is likely the best hitter on the planet right now, and that he plays at least solid defense (so it isn't a negative). Use things like an amazing 5-tool player who plays great defense, who might very weel hit 30 HRs and swipe 50 bags. Use things that stem from playing the game, not some subjective formula.

/end rant

[burke23]

Originally Posted by btimm

Good night, I really wish people would stop thinking WAR means everything. I grow to despise that douchebag Bill James. I shouldn't though, as it is not his fault so many people don't understand that WAR is a subjective formula. It is impossible to create a completely objective stat, stop treating it like it is!! Seriously, I am about to be on WAR tilt.

People who feel Trout is the MVP have a legitimate argument to make. Same with people who think Cabrera is the MVP. If it wasn't close, there wouldn't be such an immense debate. But please, use your brains, think about the game, and stop using WAR as an absolute! Use things like the triple crown, use the argument that Cabrera is likely the best hitter on the planet right now, and that he plays at least solid defense (so it isn't a negative). Use things like an amazing 5-tool player who plays great defense, who might very weel hit 30 HRs and swipe 50 bags. Use things that stem from playing the game, not some subjective formula.

/end rant

So WAR (which tries to remove subjectivity and account for all production) is subjective, but counting stats like HR are not? Got it. I think no one believes WAR is the end-all argument, but it can be telling when there is a glaring gap in value there, no? Perhaps that gap should be taken seriously when the counting stats seemingly favor the other candidate.

[gamboooler]

I like how winning a crown where 1.5 of the 3 categories are antiquated and essentially useless trumps having a more meaningful impact on wins and losses. Higher OPS+, much better defense, 40 more steals... it should be obvious if people are objective, but they aren't.

And for the guy who threw out the arbitrary line-drawing to show only 3 people have had the season Cabrera has had... no one in history has had 30 HR, 45 SB, and 125 R... except for Trout. Take out the runs, and there's still only two others besides Trout to have 30/45 ever.

WAR may not be the greatest thing ever, but it seems like being worth the most wins in baseball while playing a month less than everyone else is the definition of "most valuable." But then again, people want to put ridiculous subjective qualifiers on the award like, "you have to make the playoffs."

[CubsFanInTX]

Originally Posted by kordell1

Trout is having a great season but Cabrera deserves the MVP. September is enough for me. While both teams were fighting to get into the playoffs, Trout batted .257 with 6 RBIs in September and his team is pretty much out of it while Cabrera batted .308 with 10 HRs and 27 RBIs to help push Detroit into the playoffs.

Originally Posted by xbignick

Oh, and are those who said "this player got his team to the playoffs" going to ignore how tough each division is? Using their logic, let's blame Cabrera for the Tigers not winning with a bigger lead. The AL West is clearly a better division.

I am usually in agreement with what bignick says. Everyone keeps talking about the Tigers in the playoffs but either fail to see or too ignorant to realize that the Angels have a better record and are in a tougher division.

However, these numbers kordell listed are eye opening as well. The Angels still had a decent shot come september of pushing into the playoffs. Trout did nothing to help that cause. On the other hand, Cabrera has had one of the best Septembers seen in years and really punched his and the Tigers ticket to the playoffs. Hell look at last night 4/5 with a HR in the clinching game. That seems pretty valuable to me.

[btimm]

Originally Posted by burke23

So WAR (which tries to remove subjectivity and account for all production) is subjective, but counting stats like HR are not? Got it. I think no one believes WAR is the end-all argument, but it can be telling when there is a glaring gap in value there, no? Perhaps that gap should be taken seriously when the counting stats seemingly favor the other candidate.

Of course it should be considered, but if you thnik no one uses it as an end-all-be-all argument, you don't read much baseball. That is my problem, is that people think it is gospel. But you mention that there is a huge glaring difference in the WAR between the two players and a huge glaring difference in counting stats. Couldn't you then say that the counting stats like HR don't have enough weight?! I am not saying that is what I think, just simply stating that it is very obviously a subjective formula because it is impossible to make it objective. People should stop relying on stats and ask who was a more valuable player. Some people think it is Trout, and that is their opinion. Some people think it is Cabrera, and that is their opinion. Fine. All I am saying is think about the actual game being played, not just a bunch of numbers. I don't think I am off-base here with that thinking ...

I personally think it is Cabrera, but I won't be upset if Trout wins it, he is obviously very deserving as well.