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Old 10-16-2012, 11:22 AM   #26 (permalink)
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Saw Holliday in the post game interview. Probably didn't mean to do it. Probably didn't lose any sleep over it. Pobably wouldn't hit him if I were the opposing pitcher. He is prison yard huuuuge.
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Old 10-16-2012, 12:31 PM   #27 (permalink)
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1) You don't hit Holliday in the postseason, the game is too important to risk baserunners over that slide, JMO.

2) No one in the Cardinals dugout is upset in the least with Holliday, he broke up a double play. It's the umpires job to call interference on that play if he feels the slide was out of line.

3) Watch some tape of older baseball and you'll see this isn't that big of a deal. All middle infielders know to get their legs out from under them after a throw.

This is a play that's been greatly blown out of proportion. The guy made a hard baseball play, no Giants players would care if the shoe was on the other foot.
Ah yes, so since players did it in the past, that means it is acceptable to make a dirty slide that could jeopardize a player's career. Gotcha.
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Old 10-16-2012, 02:45 PM   #28 (permalink)
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Ah yes, so since players did it in the past, that means it is acceptable to make a dirty slide that could jeopardize a player's career. Gotcha.
Every time a pitch is thrown it potentially jeapordizes a career, should we stop the game altogether? The play was a hard baseball play, it wasn't illegal given the umpire didn't call interference. Holliday is playing in the playoffs and kept his team out of a double play, if I'm a teammate I'm happy.
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Old 10-16-2012, 03:17 PM   #29 (permalink)
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Giants Nancy Sally fans whining that their no name Infielder almost got hurt lmao! Boo hoo, next time Holliday should banana peel into the outfield and give the Infieldera a clean open lane to turn two!!! I mean it's not like it the postseason, these games dont mean anything, why slide hard! It's like holiday thinks the playoffs are serious or something
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Old 10-16-2012, 03:44 PM   #30 (permalink)
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Very dirty slide, he almost blew out Scutaro's knee. There WILL be retribution, just a matter of time.
If they were going to they should have already done it last night in a blowout game.No sense in dragging it out now.
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Old 10-16-2012, 04:30 PM   #31 (permalink)
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no name Infielder
Have you been watching baseball at all this year (I guess thats a dumb question since you're a cubs fan and baseball was over in April).

He was one of the hottest hitters in baseball for the last couple months of the season. One of the announcers last night mentioned something about him swinging and missing only 15 times in 2 months or something like that...not strikeouts...15 strikes.

In 61 games with the Giants, here are his numbers:

40 R
88 H
44 RBI
13 BB
14 K
.362 AVG

How many other players hit .362 down the stretch? Oh wait, there is Buster Posey...the soon-to-be NL MVP (or at least he should be).

You think that no-name player had nothing to do with thier run leading up to the post season? Can you think of any reason Giants fans might be upset about losing one of thier best players? Nah...me neither
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Old 10-16-2012, 04:40 PM   #32 (permalink)
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Every time a pitch is thrown it potentially jeapordizes a career, should we stop the game altogether? The play was a hard baseball play, it wasn't illegal given the umpire didn't call interference. Holliday is playing in the playoffs and kept his team out of a double play, if I'm a teammate I'm happy.
Your comparison is absurd. The intent of Holliday's slide was to break up a double play but also clearly to take out Scutaro's legs, and hitting his knees was unavoidable. The intent of a pitch is just that - to make a pitch in an attempt to get the batter out in some fashion. Comparing the two is apples-to-oranges.
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Old 10-16-2012, 04:47 PM   #33 (permalink)
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-The rules call for reckless, intentional leaving of the basepath to interfere with throw or catch to be called on a runner as violating the rules. Matt seemed to slide outside the basepath but ump didn't call it. Unfortunate for some.

Having said that, i have never understood the retaliation angle that baseball allows. Throwing at that batter, or any other, to retaliate for what is at best a 50/50 chance holliday meant to do it is dangerous, reckless, and bad sportsmanship. 30 years of watching baseball and i can't understand this one.

If yer inclined to say things like 'part of the game', then the defender should have done what any other infielder turning two has done for decades: move his feet to prevent this. That's why when someone turns two you see them do that stupid-looking jump. It's not for style points, it's for safety.

lobo_hacker, who has long thought at least half of baseballs rules, written and unwritten, are just plain dumb.

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Old 10-16-2012, 04:48 PM   #34 (permalink)
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Your comparison is absurd. The intent of Holliday's slide was to break up a double play but also clearly to take out Scutaro's legs, and hitting his knees was unavoidable. The intent of a pitch is just that - to make a pitch in an attempt to get the batter out in some fashion. Comparing the two is apples-to-oranges.
-Once a pitcher retaliates, throws at a batter and deviates from your 'intent' argument, the orange magically turns into an apple.

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Old 10-16-2012, 04:50 PM   #35 (permalink)
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I'm saying that when a middle infielder knows a guy is trying to take him out, he jumps. Scutaro didn't jump. The slide was crap, but if Scutaro had jumped and hadn't been laying on the ground then no one would have thought his leg was broken, and this discussion wouldn't be happening. Just pointing out another aspect to the play that no one mentioned. Geez.
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Why would he think he needed to slide when Holliday didn't even start the slide until AFTER he passed the bag?!
While the slide was definitely on the dirty side,
Dlcarst is correct
Scutaro doesnt need to know what holliday (or any baserunner for that matter) is going to do or when he is going to do it , to have the expectation of being taken out and being prepared.
Scutaro did not react like a typical middle infielder trying to turn the DP. Typically a middle infielder is either moving laterally or prepared to jump.
He stood there like a statue and chose to stay planted.
Probably why it was a close play at first.
And also why he had no chance to get out of the way.
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Old 10-16-2012, 04:53 PM   #36 (permalink)
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I'm not sure if anyone looked closely at any of the replays. But check this one out at about the 1:00 to 1:05 mark.

I don't know what influence it had but Holliday's feet catch one another, seems to have kept his momentum and body in the air longer.

Again not sure how much that would have affected anything but any player in the league is going to slide later to try and go through the bag to break up the play.

MLB.com Must C | Must C Collision: Holliday slides into Scutaro - Video | MLB.com: Multimedia
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Old 10-16-2012, 05:24 PM   #37 (permalink)
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I think some of you have NEVER played organized baseball before or just want something to gripe about. It looked to me Holliday intended to slide way before he actually did after his foot got caught in the dirt and popped him back up. Scutaro did not play the ball like he should have (jumped or bounced off the bag). I would say YES Holliday DID intend to go in hard but NO not the way he did. This type of stuff happens all the time on every level. I've been cleated, my hand stepped on purposely (after stealing home), smacked in the head (sliding back to 1st)...IT'S ALL APART OF THE GAME!!! As a player YOU DEAL WITH IT!!! That's up to the coach to retaliate, and even that is in the unwritten rules of baseball whether any of you like it or not. I can't fault Holliday...he intended to go hard to give his team a chance. Scutaro went in soft...bottom line. What's the difference between a player sliding into 2nd barely able to reach the bag with his hand, TOWARDS a defensive player and this? No one gripes about those kind of slides...
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Old 10-16-2012, 05:33 PM   #38 (permalink)
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I think some of you have NEVER played organized baseball before or just want something to gripe about. It looked to me Holliday intended to slide way before he actually did after his foot got caught in the dirt and popped him back up. Scutaro did not play the ball like he should have (jumped or bounced off the bag). I would say YES Holliday DID intend to go in hard but NO not the way he did. This type of stuff happens all the time on every level. I've been cleated, my hand stepped on purposely (after stealing home), smacked in the head (sliding back to 1st)...IT'S ALL APART OF THE GAME!!! As a player YOU DEAL WITH IT!!! That's up to the coach to retaliate, and even that is in the unwritten rules of baseball whether any of you like it or not. I can't fault Holliday...he intended to go hard to give his team a chance. Scutaro went in soft...bottom line. What's the difference between a player sliding into 2nd barely able to reach the bag with his hand, TOWARDS a defensive player and this? No one gripes about those kind of slides...
The only thing I diasgree with is that Scutaro went in soft.

Personally I view him as trying to make a gutty play by staying planted and trying to get as much on the throw as he could, knowing dang well he was going to get knocked on his tuchus.
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Old 10-16-2012, 05:46 PM   #39 (permalink)
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The only thing I diasgree with is that Scutaro went in soft.

Personally I view him as trying to make a gutty play by staying planted and trying to get as much on the throw as he could, knowing dang well he was going to get knocked on his tuchus.
Haha could be true but I sure as well would get out of the way and try to get the throw off if I were his size...I know Jeter is a beast but how many times have you seen him make that play?
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Old 10-16-2012, 09:03 PM   #40 (permalink)
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I think some of you have NEVER played organized baseball before or just want something to gripe about. It looked to me Holliday intended to slide way before he actually did after his foot got caught in the dirt and popped him back up. Scutaro did not play the ball like he should have (jumped or bounced off the bag). I would say YES Holliday DID intend to go in hard but NO not the way he did. This type of stuff happens all the time on every level. I've been cleated, my hand stepped on purposely (after stealing home), smacked in the head (sliding back to 1st)...IT'S ALL APART OF THE GAME!!! As a player YOU DEAL WITH IT!!! That's up to the coach to retaliate, and even that is in the unwritten rules of baseball whether any of you like it or not. I can't fault Holliday...he intended to go hard to give his team a chance. Scutaro went in soft...bottom line. What's the difference between a player sliding into 2nd barely able to reach the bag with his hand, TOWARDS a defensive player and this? No one gripes about those kind of slides...
EDIT: And I didn't mean to single you out man above, you were just the last guy who talked about something I wanted to comment on.

It's amazing to me the lack of baseball knowledge here. There is a difference between a hard slide and a dirty slide. Anyone who is saying this is part of the game and is just hard baseball has no idea what they are talking about. To the people saying Scutaro should have jumped or came across the bag have never turned a double play before. On a normal double play ball, you would come across the bag. On this instance, this was a chopper hit to Crawfords left and the only chance at turning two was to stay in, take the hit, and make the throw. Coming across or attempting to avoid would have elimanted any chance at the double play. He had a choice, stay in take the hit and try to turn it, or eat the throw and avoid the contact. He stayed in and took the hit. No one would be saying anything if it was a clean slide. But it wasn't. He not only slid real late, he practically tackledd him chest into knees. I honestly don't think Holliday meant for it happen the way it did. But, that is not a clean slide and anybody who says otherwise really has no idea what they are talking about.

Now about the retaliation topic, there are some things the umpires can't control. And the only way to send a message would be to put a fastball into someone's numbers. And to make it clearer, let's take Holliday for example. Say Pujols was still on the team. If he was batting after that, he would most likely see the fastball in his back. Even though Holliday did the deed, Pujols would get the fastball so that Holliday would have to deal with his teammates. When you're doing reckless things on the baseball field that are putting your teammates at jepoardy at the plate, then he'll cut it out. Because no one likes 93 into the back. That's pretty much the idea about the retaliation. Do some people not get it and take it to far? Yea, of course. But the whole idea of it is to protect your players and have a way to send a message about some things you are not going to tolerate.
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Old 10-16-2012, 09:19 PM   #41 (permalink)
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EDIT: And I didn't mean to single you out man above, you were just the last guy who talked about something I wanted to comment on.

It's amazing to me the lack of baseball knowledge here. There is a difference between a hard slide and a dirty slide. Anyone who is saying this is part of the game and is just hard baseball has no idea what they are talking about. To the people saying Scutaro should have jumped or came across the bag have never turned a double play before. On a normal double play ball, you would come across the bag. On this instance, this was a chopper hit to Crawfords left and the only chance at turning two was to stay in, take the hit, and make the throw. Coming across or attempting to avoid would have elimanted any chance at the double play. He had a choice, stay in take the hit and try to turn it, or eat the throw and avoid the contact. He stayed in and took the hit. No one would be saying anything if it was a clean slide. But it wasn't. He not only slid real late, he practically tackledd him chest into knees. I honestly don't think Holliday meant for it happen the way it did. But, that is not a clean slide and anybody who says otherwise really has no idea what they are talking about.

Now about the retaliation topic, there are some things the umpires can't control. And the only way to send a message would be to put a fastball into someone's numbers. And to make it clearer, let's take Holliday for example. Say Pujols was still on the team. If he was batting after that, he would most likely see the fastball in his back. Even though Holliday did the deed, Pujols would get the fastball so that Holliday would have to deal with his teammates. When you're doing reckless things on the baseball field that are putting your teammates at jepoardy at the plate, then he'll cut it out. Because no one likes 93 into the back. That's pretty much the idea about the retaliation. Do some people not get it and take it to far? Yea, of course. But the whole idea of it is to protect your players and have a way to send a message about some things you are not going to tolerate.
I can only agree with you on some aspects. I've seen this double play being played alot cleaner than what Scutaro accomplished. From the throw to Scutaro to his throw to 1st base. Could he have avoided it? Maybe not and although Holliday's slide could be considered dirty, you also have to look at how his cleat caught the dirt lunging him even further. I'm positive he was going in to take Scutaro out, but not necessarily as bad as he did. Scutaro chose to take the hit the way I see it, that's on him. Maybe he didn't think it'd be as bad as it was. Either way you look at it, YES it IS apart of the game and when I say that I mean the ish happens. If the umps don't take care of it then yes maybe a retaliation is the answer. Don't forget we are talking about MLB PLAYERS!!! They are there for a reason (athleticism)...these aren't high schoolers who are still developing and learning how to turn a double play.
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Old 10-16-2012, 09:31 PM   #42 (permalink)
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I can only agree with you on some aspects. I've seen this double play being played alot cleaner than what Scutaro accomplished. From the throw to Scutaro to his throw to 1st base. Could he have avoided it? Maybe not and although Holliday's slide could be considered dirty, you also have to look at how his cleat caught the dirt lunging him even further. I'm positive he was going in to take Scutaro out, but not necessarily as bad as he did. Scutaro chose to take the hit the way I see it, that's on him. Maybe he didn't think it'd be as bad as it was. Either way you look at it, YES it IS apart of the game and when I say that I mean the ish happens. If the umps don't take care of it then yes maybe a retaliation is the answer. Don't forget we are talking about MLB PLAYERS!!! They are there for a reason (athleticism)...these aren't high schoolers who are still developing and learning how to turn a double play.
I pretty much agree with you. I honestly don't think Holliday meant for it to go down the way it did. In all seriousness, some people don't know how to slide and I think he is one of them. You can tell it affected him by his E in the outfield. Usually when someone who commits a dirty play with dirty intentions are able to take the heat because they know what they are doing. I took a look at where Scutaro was on the base before the slide. He's at the back corner towards SS. He is in the exact position your supposed to be in on a ball to the SS backhand. In the case of a bobble or a ball that is deep in the hole, you would be in the best position to strectch like a 1B. Really, he did all he could to turn that double play. He stayed in and knew he was going to take a hit. He just took a hit that was more like a tackle than a good, hard slide. And I agree, ish happens, but that's when pitchers back up their players. As for being part of the game, hard slides are, that slide isn't.
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Old 10-16-2012, 11:03 PM   #43 (permalink)
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If I were Holliday I think an inside slide towards Scutaro that was reachable would have been the right call (make him think he'll get to hit to make a mistake)...BUT there's been worse slides in baseball history haha...and I agree, Holliday isn't the most athletic person on the field either.
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Old 10-17-2012, 10:37 AM   #44 (permalink)
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...
It's amazing to me the lack of baseball knowledge here. There is a difference between a hard slide and a dirty slide. Anyone who is saying this is part of the game and is just hard baseball has no idea what they are talking about. To the people saying Scutaro should have jumped or came across the bag have never turned a double play before...
-Without getting into an e-peen comparison of baseball experience, we'll just leave it at "your assumption is inaccurate".

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...
Now about the retaliation topic,...
-I get people think it's okay. I get that most players will tell you it's okay. But i just don't agree. When playing, never did. After i got too old and fat to play, still don't agree. It's bad sportsmanship, always has been. No different than a Ty Cobb shin job, an A-Rod forearm, or a Robin Ventura impotent charge of the mound.

At least to me.

It's bad enough when grown men and women start acting like 9 year olds on the playground for idiotic ideas like "we handle things in house, just cause it's always been that way", worse still when everyone thinks excessive violence is an appropriate response on the field of play.

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Old 10-17-2012, 12:20 PM   #45 (permalink)
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-Without getting into an e-peen comparison of baseball experience, we'll just leave it at "your assumption is inaccurate".



-I get people think it's okay. I get that most players will tell you it's okay. But i just don't agree. When playing, never did. After i got too old and fat to play, still don't agree. It's bad sportsmanship, always has been. No different than a Ty Cobb shin job, an A-Rod forearm, or a Robin Ventura impotent charge of the mound.

At least to me.

It's bad enough when grown men and women start acting like 9 year olds on the playground for idiotic ideas like "we handle things in house, just cause it's always been that way", worse still when everyone thinks excessive violence is an appropriate response on the field of play.

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Old 10-17-2012, 12:59 PM   #46 (permalink)
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I really Feel that the Giants should just take care of business and get the job done.

Go out and win the game and so you can be up 2-1 on the Cardinals.

As for the slide, it is part of the game and has been for about 60 years now
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