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Old 11-29-2012, 04:16 AM   #51 (permalink)
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Ummm. Yes.
Ummm. No.

Accummulating a lot of counting stats (such as hits) simply indicates that you played a long time and got a lot of AB, not that you were particularly good.

Biggio was a career .281 hitter with an 112 career OPS+, which means that for him getting 3000 hits is simply a reflection of the fact that he played twenty years and got a huge number of AB at the top of the Astros batting order, not that he was anything special as a hitter.

During his last eight seasons, during which he accumulated 1200 of those hits, he was a below average hitter (OPS+ of 93, 111, 88, 96, 105, 104, 84, 71) who actual hurt his team more than he helped it.
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Old 11-29-2012, 06:37 AM   #52 (permalink)
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I think Piazza goes in alone. Biggio will make it, but not this year. And FWIW, Jack Morris is not now, nor will he ever be, a HOF pitcher. 254 wins, 2400 Ks are admirable, but he won 20 games twice, and 21 once, hardly dominant. Also ge averaged 8.4 hits per 9, while striking out just over 5. 20-25 more wins and maybe we have a real debate, but he just isn't HOF material.
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Old 11-29-2012, 07:06 AM   #53 (permalink)
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I give the nod to Piazza....and Biggio will be close... Would love to see Clemens..but thats not going to happen any time soon
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Old 11-29-2012, 07:08 AM   #54 (permalink)
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I doubt anyone who's on the HoF Ballot for the first time is getting in.

That said, the people I would like to see go in would be Don Mattingly & Bernie Williams (yes I'm biased, sue me) as well as Mike Piazza, Sandy Alomar Jr & Julio Franco.
I'd also like for the HoF to stop inducting umpires and finally include Roger Maris.
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Old 11-29-2012, 07:30 AM   #55 (permalink)
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Piazza, Biggio are most probably getting in. While I don't fully agree the steroid users shouldn't be in, Bonds was, and might ever will be, one of the greatest hitters in the game. I think he'll get in, but not on the first ballot.
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Old 11-29-2012, 08:49 AM   #56 (permalink)
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If Bonds and Clemens had retired in 2000 they would have both made it in first time. They're the two best players being discussed and both should be in.
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Old 11-29-2012, 08:56 AM   #57 (permalink)
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Biggio and that should be it.

Too many others that used steroids or are strongly suspected of steroid use.

Other "drugs" have been used by players for decades but no drug until steroids came along that changed the game so much along with the history books. Dimaggio would drink "4 cups of coffee" before a game which I'm sure woke him up a great deal but did not give him extra strength or a vast edge over the other ballplayers.

Baseball is a game of numbers and when something (steroids) changes the numbers so much those players should be penalized.

McGwire said it himself- "I should not be in the Hall Of Fame"
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Old 11-29-2012, 08:59 AM   #58 (permalink)
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Schilling had better not make it. He was not a HOF pitcher at all. hardly dominant.
I agree with this 100% Biggio may though few with his numbers are first ballot. Paizza is THE GREATEST HITTING CATCHER OF ALL TIME, if the juice era dosnt affect him, then he may go first round...
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Old 11-29-2012, 10:43 AM   #59 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mfw13 View Post
Ummm. No.

Accummulating a lot of counting stats (such as hits) simply indicates that you played a long time and got a lot of AB, not that you were particularly good.

Biggio was a career .281 hitter with an 112 career OPS+, which means that for him getting 3000 hits is simply a reflection of the fact that he played twenty years and got a huge number of AB at the top of the Astros batting order, not that he was anything special as a hitter.

During his last eight seasons, during which he accumulated 1200 of those hits, he was a below average hitter (OPS+ of 93, 111, 88, 96, 105, 104, 84, 71) who actual hurt his team more than he helped it.
None of that actually matters though, because he had 3000 hits. Therefore he will be in the hall. thats the way it works. Is it Fair to the other guys? Maybe not, Is that going to stop him from getting in? No.
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Old 11-29-2012, 10:48 AM   #60 (permalink)
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I agree with Mike and Mike.

If Bonds and Clemens don't get it, then no one should that played during that era.

So many players were using, it's hard to say who was or wasn't using when not everyone was caught.
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Old 11-29-2012, 10:53 AM   #61 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mfw13 View Post
Ummm. No.

Accummulating a lot of counting stats (such as hits) simply indicates that you played a long time and got a lot of AB, not that you were particularly good.

Biggio was a career .281 hitter with an 112 career OPS+, which means that for him getting 3000 hits is simply a reflection of the fact that he played twenty years and got a huge number of AB at the top of the Astros batting order, not that he was anything special as a hitter.

During his last eight seasons, during which he accumulated 1200 of those hits, he was a below average hitter (OPS+ of 93, 111, 88, 96, 105, 104, 84, 71) who actual hurt his team more than he helped it.
Ummm. Yes. He will get in. Everyone with 3000 hits has. Don't like it? Blame the teams that kept him. He managed to get a base hit or better 3000 times in his career. Not many guys have done that. He deserves to be in.
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Old 11-29-2012, 11:02 AM   #62 (permalink)
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Schilling is as every bit as good or better than HOFers like Newhouser, Palmer, Whitey, Fergie, Lemon, Lyons and about 6 other pitchers in the Hall. Not to mention 11-2 2.23 ERA in the postseason (ERA and losses would be lowered by 1 each if he hadn't pitched with the wrecked ankle tendon before the miracle surgery).
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Old 11-29-2012, 11:08 AM   #63 (permalink)
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Schilling is as every bit as good or better than HOFers like Newhouser, Palmer, Whitey, Fergie, Lemon, Lyons and about 6 other pitchers in the Hall. Not to mention 11-2 2.23 ERA in the postseason (ERA and losses would be lowered by 1 each if he hadn't pitched with the wrecked ankle tendon before the miracle surgery).
With 3000+ K's, over 300 K's 3 times in his career, and 3 WS rings, he'll make it eventually. Maybe not the first voting, but like stated above, he's better than a bunch who are already there.
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Old 11-29-2012, 11:20 AM   #64 (permalink)
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-Traditionally, the Hall of Fame has weighted counting statistics more than saber analysis. Certainly Biggio gets in when considering the counting stats: the only player in history to amass this combination = 3000 hits, 600 doubles, 400 stolen bases, and 250 home runs. He also generated opportunities in an oft-unrecognized way, crowding the plate and leading the league in HBP for 5 seasons. Through in a few Gold Gloves and an All-Star bid at both 2b and Catcher (weird), it would seem the counting stats are in his favor.

When compared to other 2b players in the Hall, he's around middle of the pack in most counting stats. Not near close to the worst, only the best on one or two categories. 1st in Runs Scored, 2nd in HR, 4th in Hits, 5th in SB, etc. So, again, by traditional 'counting stat' measures, it would seem Biggio has the right stuff.

A quick aside, particularly for all you Larry Walker haters. Biggio played in the Astrodome, a not-friendly-to-hitters park by most measures. If yer gonna downgrade Walker for the Coors factor, you darn well better give Biggio a bump for playing a good shot of games in that place. If not, let Walker in and quit being hypocritical.

And then we get to the sabermetric analysis. Length hurts here, but something that comes up a lot in these discussions is dominance. Jack Morris and Blyleven can speak to this. So, was Biggio ever 'dominant'?

In the 1990s, his best decade, he led the lead in doubles 3 times, had a 5+ oWAR 5 times (topping out over 7 twice), the best dWAR of his career, and during the decade was second only to I-rubbed-some-mayonnaise-type-substance-on-my-muscles-and-didn't-know-it-was-bad-Barry Bonds in Win Shares. For the decade.

Add in a few Silver Sluggers for good measure and 32nd all-time in Runs Created (ahead of a whole slew of HOF players).

In the end, i personally think the Hall of Fame as currently-designed is a bit flawed. Without discussing that, though, to maintain some consistency and relevance to the past, if we're gonna keep this ol' gal together...Biggio gets in.

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Old 11-29-2012, 11:21 AM   #65 (permalink)
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I'd put all the roiders on the ballot in. They're being discussed because they did put up ridiculous numbers. For all we know guys like Griffey, Jeter and Piazza all juiced as well. We don't know the facts, just the numbers.

Am I accusing these guys? Absolutely not. I'm just pointing out the fact that we don't know with any certainty at all who used and who didn't. So screw it--vote them in based on performance and let their reputations be their reputations.
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Old 11-29-2012, 11:22 AM   #66 (permalink)
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I will eat a double veggie burger if Piazza gets in. No way.

Schilling will benefit from the steroid boys. He wont get in but he will get more votes because of Clemens and Bonds.
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Old 11-29-2012, 11:27 AM   #67 (permalink)
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He also generated opportunities in an oft-unrecognized way, crowding the plate and leading the league in HBP for 5 seasons.
I think this contribution of his can be ignored. He was simply geared to stand in there and lean into pitches.

He still has the numbers to get in but I don't consider bunting with an elbow plate a factor. If a BBWAA voter thinks dressing like a Knight Templar is a hall-worthy atribute, so be it, but they're crazy IMO.

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Old 11-29-2012, 11:33 AM   #68 (permalink)
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I think this contribution of his can be ignored. He was simply geared to stand in there and lean into pitches.

He still has the numbers to get in but I don't consider bunting with an elbow plate a factor. If a BBWAA voter thinks dressing like a Knight Templar is a hall-worthy atribute, so be it, but they're crazy IMO.

-I remember watching Rickey Henderson in games get on base occasionally using this method, and folks called it 'savvy' to create a runner. I agree it's not much, but what's good for the goose and all that.

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Old 11-29-2012, 12:35 PM   #69 (permalink)
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"Actually, the 1968 season wasn't the best time to present my case. It was the first time since my rookie year that I didn't drive in or score 100 runs. I was so frustrated that at one point I tried using a pep pill ”a greenie” that one of my teammates gave me. When that thing took hold, I thought I was having a heart attack. It was a stupid thing to do."

And a lot of people need to stop thinking steroids and cheating are confined to one, singular era. It was been going since baseball's inception and will continue to go on.
Thank You for having some reason. I hate Bonds and Clemens, but they clearly deserve to be in the Hall. I am a big Sosa fan and I think he deserves it as well. Ball players have always cheated, it may have been sandpaper on the finger, or caffine pill or whatever. Players used the lastest creations to cheat and the most recent creation happens to steriods. I bet players used steriods in the 70's and 80's once they saw Arnold, but baseball just never tested. It is what it is, get over it and let these great ball players have their rightful spot in the Hall.
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Old 11-29-2012, 01:16 PM   #70 (permalink)
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Skimmed through it but read something about rates versus counting stats. I'd rely more on rates, but take into account longevity. Playing a long time means you were able to keep up with the league, stay healthy. That's a skill. Playing for a longer time, albeit even at an average value sometimes, gives you a chance to accumulate more value.

Anyway, one of the things I hate about blocking a big portion of the era is that there are a lot of assumptions involved for specific players and you're basically implying you can quantify a lot of stuff you can't.
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Old 11-29-2012, 01:33 PM   #71 (permalink)
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I will eat a double veggie burger if Piazza gets in. No way.

Schilling will benefit from the steroid boys. He wont get in but he will get more votes because of Clemens and Bonds.
Schilling will get in, its gonna take a while but he will get in. He was dominant in the postseason and extremely good for a long time.

I agree the steroid boys will help him
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Old 11-29-2012, 01:37 PM   #72 (permalink)
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Biggio and piazza for sure. How could anyone doubt piazza? He's the greatest hitting catcher in baseball history!
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Old 11-29-2012, 01:39 PM   #73 (permalink)
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Piazza is a lock.. I've already got my tickets locked in for induction weekend one of the benefits of having the in-laws living in Cooperstown haha
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Old 11-29-2012, 01:41 PM   #74 (permalink)
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You people are d@mn morons!

If Robeto Alomar didn't get in on first ballot, Biggio won't either... He'll be held over for next year

Mike Piazza is the greatest offensive catcher ever; How will he not get in? He's the only automatic on the list
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Old 11-29-2012, 01:47 PM   #75 (permalink)
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Aside from being a great hitter, Biggio was an all star AT 3 DIFFERENT/VERY DIFFICULT POSITIONS! And piazza was the greatest hitting catcher of all time, PLUS he was never linked to using PED'S! How could he possibly not be a first ballot HOF'er?!?
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