Blowout Cards Forums
Black Friday 2014

Go Back   Blowout Cards Forums > BLOWOUTS HOBBY TALK > BASEBALL

BASEBALL Post your Baseball Cards Hobby Talk

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 01-09-2013, 10:59 PM   #26 (permalink)
Member
 
HadWayTooMuch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Southern New Jersey
Posts: 4,376
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by RedSoxFan28 View Post
Schilling also is ranked 18th all time for CY Young Award Shares, he is the only person in the top 28 not to win a Cy Yound Award.
I have never heard of Cy Young Award Shares. Wow, they have a stat for just about everything, don't they?
HadWayTooMuch is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-09-2013, 11:00 PM   #27 (permalink)
Member
 
RedSoxFan28's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Maine
Posts: 5,313
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by HadWayTooMuch View Post
I have never heard of Cy Young Award Shares. Wow, they have a stat for just about everything, don't they?
Haha Just about , It might not be the most useful stat but I found it interesting that he was the only pitcher not to win a Cy Yound in the top 28
MVP and Cy Young Award Share Leaders - Baseball-Reference.com
__________________
Baseball- Boston Red Sox, Football- New England Patriots, Basketball- Boston Celtics & OKC Thunder, Hockey- Boston Bruins
Looking for Tom Brady Flawless
RedSoxFan28 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-09-2013, 11:01 PM   #28 (permalink)
Member
 
IamRalpho's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Boston
Posts: 11,520
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by HadWayTooMuch View Post
First of all, we all know it's subjective. You can read a stat one way and I can read the same stat another way.

Here is how I read his stats:

I see a guy that pitched for 18 seasons and this is what I see:
  • 3 times - won 20 games
  • 5 times - won more than 15 games
  • 8 times - ERA below 3.50
  • 0 Cy Young Awards
  • 6 time all star
  • 216 wins

Nothing to be ashamed of. Definitely belongs in the Hall of Very Good, without a doubt.

Problem is, it's called Hall of Fame.

Put Schilling in and we have to start talking about Bob Welch, which I don't want to do.

Hall of Very Good
Compare Schillings and Welchs stats/achievements and tell me if that analogy makes sense.
__________________
If you have under 25 iTrader feedback or any negative, I will ask you to send first

I do not ask for much, but please leave feedback if everything goes well with our deal.
IamRalpho is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 01-09-2013, 11:01 PM   #29 (permalink)
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 4,323
Default

Here we go, he has comparable or better than stats than HOFers Jim Bunning, Jack Chesbro, Don Drysdale, Whitey Ford, Lefty Gomez, Jesse Haines, Waite Hoyt, Sandy Koufax, Bob Lemon, Rube Marquard, Hal Newhouser, Dazzy Vance, Rube Wadell, and Ed Walsh. Might as well get rid of those guys too and just include Cy Young, Christy Mathewson, Walter Johnson and Grover Alexander. BTW, his post season record of 11-2 2.23 ERA would be one loss less and about 1 1/2 runs less ERA if he didn't pitch a game vs NY on one leg.
coltsnsox07 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-09-2013, 11:20 PM   #30 (permalink)
Member
 
HadWayTooMuch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Southern New Jersey
Posts: 4,376
Default

I'll say it again. You can make stats say anything you want them to say. I know 216 wins, no Cy Youngs and no string of domination means no HOF in my eyes.

If you want to make comparisons, Mariano Duncan may be a HOFer because I'm sure his numbers compare to Phil Rizzutos. Rizzuto and his 1500 hits are a joke when Trammell, Concepcion, Bowa and probably Omar Vizquel won't sniff Cooperstown. But just because there's one travesty doesn't mean there should be one all over Cooperstown.
HadWayTooMuch is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-09-2013, 11:21 PM   #31 (permalink)
Member
 
IamRalpho's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Boston
Posts: 11,520
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by HadWayTooMuch View Post
I'll say it again. You can make stats say anything you want them to say. I know 216 wins, no Cy Youngs and no string of domination means no HOF in my eyes.

If you want to make comparisons, Mariano Duncan may be a HOFer because I'm sure his numbers compare to Phil Rizzutos. Rizzuto and his 1500 hits are a joke when Trammell, Concepcion, Bowa and probably Omar Vizquel won't sniff Cooperstown. But just because there's one travesty doesn't mean there should be one all over Cooperstown.
We are talking about Schilling here, compare his stats to Bob Welch or other Hall of Famers. Not Mariano Duncan.

Regardless if you think he deserves to be in or, the stats and what the HOF has done so far thinks otherwise.
__________________
If you have under 25 iTrader feedback or any negative, I will ask you to send first

I do not ask for much, but please leave feedback if everything goes well with our deal.
IamRalpho is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 01-09-2013, 11:25 PM   #32 (permalink)
Member
 
HadWayTooMuch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Southern New Jersey
Posts: 4,376
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by IamRalpho View Post
We are talking about Schilling here, compare his stats to Bob Welch or other Hall of Famers. Not Mariano Duncan.

Regardless if you think he deserves to be in or, the stats and what the HOF has done so far thinks otherwise.
It's all about opinion, period the end. Nobody has the final say. So whether he deserves to be in or not is why we talk sports.

Rizzuto is a joke to get to the HOF.

Schilling is a better candidate than Rizzuto but that doesn't make him a HOFer.

But the HOF is really leaving a lot of us behind. Those that don't know Cy Young Shares, UZR, WAR, DICE, etc. I do realize that. I'm all but a dinosaur right now...
HadWayTooMuch is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-09-2013, 11:27 PM   #33 (permalink)
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: MA
Posts: 4,987
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by HadWayTooMuch View Post
I'll say it again. You can make stats say anything you want them to say. I know 216 wins, no Cy Youngs and no string of domination means no HOF in my eyes.

If you want to make comparisons, Mariano Duncan may be a HOFer because I'm sure his numbers compare to Phil Rizzutos. Rizzuto and his 1500 hits are a joke when Trammell, Concepcion, Bowa and probably Omar Vizquel won't sniff Cooperstown. But just because there's one travesty doesn't mean there should be one all over Cooperstown.

He was 2nd in 3 CYAs, though. Twice to Randy Johnson and once to Johan Santana. His run from 95-2004 definitely puts him in the dominant tier. He wasn't Pedro from 97-03, but he was a great pitcher of the era. If Jack Morris goes, Schilling belongs. His Career ERA+ is the same as Bob Gibson and Tom Seaver. He also did it in the era when Steroids ran rampant. While I could care less about that point, it certainly seems as though the BBWAA all of a sudden does.

I think Schilling gets in eventually. I do agree that he was not a "1st ballot guy"
__________________
Follow me on Twitter @85CaseBreaks

uStream link - http://www.ustream.tv/channel/dlab85-case-breaks
dlab85 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-10-2013, 12:06 AM   #34 (permalink)
Member
 
Bluemarlin528's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Huntington Beach, CA
Posts: 1,050
Default

Kevin Brown basically has the same stats as Schilling. So hell no!
Bluemarlin528 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-10-2013, 12:10 AM   #35 (permalink)
Member
 
tennelson55's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Albany, NY
Posts: 1,405
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by AUTaxMan View Post
If I have to think about whether or not someone is deserving for more than 5 seconds, they aren't.
Am I reading this correctly? Do you have some insight I don't...?
__________________
Always looking to trade for New York Giants!
tennelson55 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-10-2013, 12:10 AM   #36 (permalink)
Member
 
natbornkiller's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: bkNY
Posts: 14,797
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by HadWayTooMuch View Post
It's all about opinion, period the end. Nobody has the final say. So whether he deserves to be in or not is why we talk sports.

Rizzuto is a joke to get to the HOF.

Schilling is a better candidate than Rizzuto but that doesn't make him a HOFer.

But the HOF is really leaving a lot of us behind. Those that don't know Cy Young Shares, UZR, WAR, DICE, etc. I do realize that. I'm all but a dinosaur right now...
how is rizzuto a joke , he played in a different era and career was shortened by ww2 like most players in that era
__________________
this one goes out to some of the members
http://www.comedycentral.com/videos/index.jhtml?title=dee-dee-dee-song&videoId=72779

:jedi::jedi::jedi:
natbornkiller is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-10-2013, 12:18 AM   #37 (permalink)
Member
 
HadWayTooMuch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Southern New Jersey
Posts: 4,376
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by natbornkiller View Post
how is rizzuto a joke , he played in a different era and career was shortened by ww2 like most players in that era
13 years - 1588 hits.

We'll say 12 years since he was a starter for 12

Averaging 125 or so hits per year

.273 batting average
No power

Bowa, Concepcion, Trammell and Vizquel crush his stats.

It's all Yankees bias.

Everyone knew as soon as Whitey Ford & Yogi Berra were on the Veteran's Committee he would get it, and he did. Must be nice to be a HOFer because your buddies voted you in.

The war didn't seem to stop Ted Williams from putting up HOF numbers...
HadWayTooMuch is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-10-2013, 12:26 AM   #38 (permalink)
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 721
Default

Like it was said earlier, Schilling finished 2nd, 3 times from 2001-04. First he loses to Randy Johnson's amazing year where he went 21-6 with 2.49 ERA. Schilling finished with a 22-6 record and a 2.98 ERA (if he had that stat line in the AL he would have won that year). The next year same thing, 20+ win season, ERA under 3.30 finishes 2nd to Big Unit. Lost in '04 to Johan in his first season in the AL which to me is tremendous. Not many pitchers have a great first year switching to the AL. Had more wins and less walks then Johan that year.

From 97-04, averaged 16.5 wins, 243 K's, 3.24 ERA.

I just wonder if you add 2 Cy Youngs would people think he's a HOF? Because he could have won in either 2001 or 02 and could have been chosen over Santana in 04
hitman1116 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-10-2013, 12:31 AM   #39 (permalink)
Member
 
IamRalpho's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Boston
Posts: 11,520
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluemarlin528 View Post
Kevin Brown basically has the same stats as Schilling. So hell no!
How are Browns postseason stats?
__________________
If you have under 25 iTrader feedback or any negative, I will ask you to send first

I do not ask for much, but please leave feedback if everything goes well with our deal.
IamRalpho is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 01-10-2013, 12:34 AM   #40 (permalink)
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: MA
Posts: 4,987
Default

Veteran's committee is a whole different deal. They regularly elect guys who don't really belong in...
__________________
Follow me on Twitter @85CaseBreaks

uStream link - http://www.ustream.tv/channel/dlab85-case-breaks
dlab85 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-10-2013, 01:05 AM   #41 (permalink)
Member
 
Bluemarlin528's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Huntington Beach, CA
Posts: 1,050
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by IamRalpho View Post
How are Browns postseason stats?

Schilling was a great post season pitcher, to bad there isn't a Postseason hall of Fame. Brown had a better ERA and one less ring. In my mind not enough of difference to elect to the HOF. If Schilling gets into the HOF I see a Brown & Welch movement starting next.
Bluemarlin528 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-10-2013, 01:22 AM   #42 (permalink)
Member
 
AUTaxMan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 524
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by tennelson55 View Post
Am I reading this correctly? Do you have some insight I don't...?
It's just knowing the sport, its history, what makes a HOFer and being able to see all of that in perspective. If you follow the sport closely enough, it isn't hard to develop an opinion about who does and who doesn't belong.
__________________
COLLECTING
GREG MADDUX, QUENTIN GROVES, FRANK SANDERS, AND AUBURN TIGERS
AUTaxMan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-10-2013, 01:23 AM   #43 (permalink)
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: MA
Posts: 4,987
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluemarlin528 View Post
Schilling was a great post season pitcher, to bad there isn't a Postseason hall of Fame. Brown had a better ERA and one less ring. In my mind not enough of difference to elect to the HOF. If Schilling gets into the HOF I see a Brown & Welch movement starting next.
Schilling also was a reliever for 3 years and had the ankle injury in 2005 which caused his ERA to be 5.89. Brown was dreadful in the World Series. Schilling is going to be in the HOF someday. He belongs in way before Sutter, Blyleven and Gossage

That whole steroid/Kirk Radomski thing about Kevin Brown really throws a hitch into the KB for HOF movement as well...
__________________
Follow me on Twitter @85CaseBreaks

uStream link - http://www.ustream.tv/channel/dlab85-case-breaks
dlab85 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-10-2013, 01:23 AM   #44 (permalink)
Member
 
AUTaxMan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 524
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by HadWayTooMuch View Post
First of all, we all know it's subjective. You can read a stat one way and I can read the same stat another way.

Here is how I read his stats:

I see a guy that pitched for 18 seasons and this is what I see:
  • 3 times - won 20 games
  • 5 times - won more than 15 games
  • 8 times - ERA below 3.50
  • 0 Cy Young Awards
  • 6 time all star
  • 216 wins

Nothing to be ashamed of. Definitely belongs in the Hall of Very Good, without a doubt.

Problem is, it's called Hall of Fame.

Put Schilling in and we have to start talking about Bob Welch, which I don't want to do.

Hall of Very Good
Agree with this assessment.
__________________
COLLECTING
GREG MADDUX, QUENTIN GROVES, FRANK SANDERS, AND AUBURN TIGERS
AUTaxMan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-10-2013, 01:38 AM   #45 (permalink)
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 89
Default

Do his 3,000 career strikeouts not mean anything? Everyone else that has hit that mark is either a hall of famer, not yet eligible, or Roger Clemens. Not saying it's the most important thing, but voters love them some milestones.
BSLV9 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-10-2013, 08:58 AM   #46 (permalink)
Member
 
IamRalpho's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Boston
Posts: 11,520
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluemarlin528 View Post
Schilling was a great post season pitcher, to bad there isn't a Postseason hall of Fame. Brown had a better ERA and one less ring. In my mind not enough of difference to elect to the HOF. If Schilling gets into the HOF I see a Brown & Welch movement starting next.
Post season counts right? I mean they do list their achievements in the Hall of Fame right?

So good thing for Schilling they count postseason stats, thats why he will go in and Bob Welch? Are we really serious? Just because he won 1 Cy Young?

1 Cy Young and inferior stats > Schilling? Gotta love people over valuing wins and him pitching in Oakland :/

Schilling better K numbers, better ERA+, better WHIP, K/9, K/BB, better ERA, more all Star game appearances, more Cy Young finishes, and frankly, if you wanna add playoffs in here, its not even close

I understand not liking Schilling, but Bob Welch is your argument? Come on
__________________
If you have under 25 iTrader feedback or any negative, I will ask you to send first

I do not ask for much, but please leave feedback if everything goes well with our deal.
IamRalpho is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 01-10-2013, 09:07 AM   #47 (permalink)
Member
 
IamRalpho's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Boston
Posts: 11,520
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by AUTaxMan View Post
Agree with this assessment.
Also you can not list his accomplishments or downfalls and not mention his post season stats, you can not pick and choose what you want to use to make your argument.

His postseason stats puts him into the Hall of Fame and above guys like Brown and Welch.

Use the full scope of his stats, not just ones that make your argument.
__________________
If you have under 25 iTrader feedback or any negative, I will ask you to send first

I do not ask for much, but please leave feedback if everything goes well with our deal.
IamRalpho is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 01-10-2013, 09:20 AM   #48 (permalink)
Member
 
AUTaxMan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 524
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by BSLV9 View Post
Do his 3,000 career strikeouts not mean anything? Everyone else that has hit that mark is either a hall of famer, not yet eligible, or Roger Clemens. Not saying it's the most important thing, but voters love them some milestones.
While milestones mean something, they are becoming less meaningful in this age of advanced baseball statistics.
__________________
COLLECTING
GREG MADDUX, QUENTIN GROVES, FRANK SANDERS, AND AUBURN TIGERS
AUTaxMan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-10-2013, 09:23 AM   #49 (permalink)
Member
 
AUTaxMan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 524
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by IamRalpho View Post
Also you can not list his accomplishments or downfalls and not mention his post season stats, you can not pick and choose what you want to use to make your argument.

His postseason stats puts him into the Hall of Fame and above guys like Brown and Welch.

Use the full scope of his stats, not just ones that make your argument.
I am not ignoring his postseason accomplishments. I think he was a very good pitcher for most of his career, and an amazing pitcher for three years. That, to me, is not enough to get you into the HOF in my opinion. For the record, I LIKE Schilling. He is probably one of my favorite players because of his competitiveness. He is borderline HOF to me, though, and I am a small hall guy, so he is out.
__________________
COLLECTING
GREG MADDUX, QUENTIN GROVES, FRANK SANDERS, AND AUBURN TIGERS
AUTaxMan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-10-2013, 09:24 AM   #50 (permalink)
Member
 
IamRalpho's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Boston
Posts: 11,520
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by AUTaxMan View Post
I am not ignoring his postseason accomplishments. I think he was a very good pitcher for most of his career, and an amazing pitcher for three years. That, to me, is not enough to get you into the HOF in my opinion. For the record, I LIKE Schilling. He is probably one of my favorite players because of his competitiveness. He is borderline HOF to me, though, and I am a small hall guy, so he is out.
Wasnt really at you, but the other poster. I was too lazy to search for his original psot.
__________________
If you have under 25 iTrader feedback or any negative, I will ask you to send first

I do not ask for much, but please leave feedback if everything goes well with our deal.
IamRalpho is online now   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On



All times are GMT -4. The time now is 06:20 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO
Copyright 2013, Blowout Cards Inc.