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Old 01-10-2013, 09:20 AM   #51 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HadWayTooMuch View Post
First of all, we all know it's subjective. You can read a stat one way and I can read the same stat another way.

Here is how I read his stats:

I see a guy that pitched for 18 seasons and this is what I see:
  • 3 times - won 20 games
  • 5 times - won more than 15 games
  • 8 times - ERA below 3.50
  • 0 Cy Young Awards
  • 6 time all star
  • 216 wins

Nothing to be ashamed of. Definitely belongs in the Hall of Very Good, without a doubt.

Problem is, it's called Hall of Fame.

Put Schilling in and we have to start talking about Bob Welch, which I don't want to do.

Hall of Very Good
Stop giving me wins because it's 2013 and using them to judge a player is ridiculous. And I'm not going to bother looking at the Cy Young as well because this guy pitched during the years guys like Johnson, Clemens, Martinez, etc. also pitched, some of the best ever and it's unfair to judge him solely against some of the best of all-time during the years he pitched against the baseball population, which we should we doing. And again, we've seen how votes go, I would have voted Trout MVP last year without a second though but he did not win the award others voted for - I'm not holding that over his head when he clearly put up the most value.

What I see: 3.46 ERA (7th during the years he played for pitchers with 3k+ IP), 86.1 WAR (fourth best, behind who? Clemens, Johnson, Maddux), 8.60 K/9 (third best), 1.96 BB/9 (third best), 3261.0, etc. He carried awesome rates for over three thousand innings (second best strikeout to walk ratio of all time), sorry that his totally independent wins aren't up to snuff.
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Last edited by xbignick; 01-10-2013 at 09:31 AM.
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Old 01-10-2013, 09:28 AM   #52 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HadWayTooMuch View Post
First of all, we all know it's subjective. You can read a stat one way and I can read the same stat another way.

Here is how I read his stats:

I see a guy that pitched for 18 seasons and this is what I see:
  • 3 times - won 20 games
  • 5 times - won more than 15 games
  • 8 times - ERA below 3.50
  • 0 Cy Young Awards
  • 6 time all star
  • 216 wins
Need to add some things for the complete picture though.

*11-2 with a 2.23 ERA and a .968 WHIP (walks and hits per innings pitched) in 19 postseason starts
*4-0 with a 1.37 ERA in five elimination starts
*MVP of the 1993 NLCS with the Phillies
*Co-MVP of the 2001 World Series with the Diamondbacks
*His 4.383 strikeout-to-walk ratio is the second-best all-time

He is a lock for the HOF at some point.
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Old 01-10-2013, 09:41 AM   #53 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by IamRalpho View Post
Wasnt really at you, but the other poster. I was too lazy to search for his original psot.
I agree that you don't get in based on post-season or 2/3 of the Yankees would be HOFers.

Schilling was a very good pitcher, but not a legend. 5 years of more than 15 wins to me does not look like HOF numbers.

I know you can start quoting all kinds of sabremetric stats, but I just don't see it. And 3000 strikeouts to me is a worthless stat. A strikeout is just a step better than a ground ball to third. But the ground ball to third could be a double play.

By no means do I think Welch is a HOFer, but some of his numbers are similar which is why I mentioned him.
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Old 01-10-2013, 09:42 AM   #54 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xbignick View Post
Stop giving me wins because it's 2013 and using them to judge a player is ridiculous. And I'm not going to bother looking at the Cy Young as well because this guy pitched during the years guys like Johnson, Clemens, Martinez, etc. also pitched, some of the best ever and it's unfair to judge him solely against some of the best of all-time during the years he pitched against the baseball population, which we should we doing. And again, we've seen how votes go, I would have voted Trout MVP last year without a second though but he did not win the award others voted for - I'm not holding that over his head when he clearly put up the most value.

What I see: 3.46 ERA (7th during the years he played for pitchers with 3k+ IP), 86.1 WAR (fourth best, behind who? Clemens, Johnson, Maddux), 8.60 K/9 (third best), 1.96 BB/9 (third best), 3261.0, etc. He carried awesome rates for over three thousand innings (second best strikeout to walk ratio of all time), sorry that his totally independent wins aren't up to snuff.
Quite simply, I still see wins as an important number. The question is, will the HOF voters see it the same way. This year they did. It might change in the future.
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Old 01-10-2013, 09:56 AM   #55 (permalink)
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People need to understand that voters view 1st ballot hall of famers on a level separate from others. Schilling is a HOF but not a 1st ballot HOF. Writers that did not vote for him this year will vote for him later.
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