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Old 11-28-2012, 04:54 AM   #201 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by thepinoymamba View Post
This is the truth!
Move over Topps, move over UD,
Times up!
Panini got the basketball!
Its done! They renewed their licence. The others didn't.
Game over!
Panini wins!
At the end of the day.
Basketball faithful will still pickup Panini!
Lets enjoy and welcome the product of the year tomorrow.
Panini Prizm.
Fail.

The basketball faithful are spending all their money on vintage UD/Topps/Fleer singles rather than waste it on overpriced Panini wax.
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Old 11-28-2012, 07:40 AM   #202 (permalink)
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Panini is a large corporation concerned more with their bottom-line than their end-users. Sure, profitability and long-term viability are important to any business, but Panini, the multi-billion dollar conglomerate that they are, probably have a strict business model that standardizes many of their business procedures globally. This is possibly why 99% of their autographs are stickers, all of their designs look similar/generic, and the quality of the materials used on their cards is cheap and all look the same (similar to Taco Bell....they have many different menu options, but you could make them all with the same 5 ingredients...once you have had a taco, you have essentially tasted half the menu).

It is a cost effective and proven business model, however, the end-users suffer greatly.
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Old 11-28-2012, 09:27 AM   #203 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by thepinoymamba View Post
This is the truth!
Move over Topps, move over UD,
Times up!
Panini got the basketball!
Its done! They renewed their licence. The others didn't.
Game over!
Panini wins!
At the end of the day.
Basketball faithful will still pickup Panini!
Lets enjoy and welcome the product of the year tomorrow.
Panini Prizm.
Im certain this is Tracy Hackler. I dont care what anyone says.
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Old 11-28-2012, 09:47 AM   #204 (permalink)
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Im certain this is Tracy Hackler. I dont care what anyone says.
Agreed
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Old 11-28-2012, 12:07 PM   #205 (permalink)
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Panini cards look hideous. I collect mostly late 90s inserts and the design of these cards doesn't compare whatsoever. I've only looked at Panini cards for a few hours, but I've seen all I need to see. Panini cards can't even hold a candle to 1998-99 UD Choice.
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Old 11-28-2012, 12:37 PM   #206 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by jj2 View Post
The allotted stock of Prestige Basketball sold out on DA on Black Friday, did it not?
No, you could still buy Prestige on Sat at 40% off. It took them like 2 days (you can still see the deal on Sat) to sell out 10 boxes or so. Chrome in football and baseball sold out in 15 minutes, and the discount % is even less. Check the difference of timing and discount %.
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Old 11-28-2012, 12:42 PM   #207 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by SPauthentic84 View Post
Im certain this is Tracy Hackler. I dont care what anyone says.
And Im sure you and select few others are set on the agenda of "pimping' certain sets so you guys can unload make make fists full of dollars!!

Doesnt everyone have an agenda here?
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Old 11-28-2012, 12:58 PM   #208 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by dmogull View Post
Panini is a large corporation concerned more with their bottom-line than their end-users. Sure, profitability and long-term viability are important to any business, but Panini, the multi-billion dollar conglomerate that they are, probably have a strict business model that standardizes many of their business procedures globally. This is possibly why 99% of their autographs are stickers, all of their designs look similar/generic, and the quality of the materials used on their cards is cheap and all look the same (similar to Taco Bell....they have many different menu options, but you could make them all with the same 5 ingredients...once you have had a taco, you have essentially tasted half the menu).

It is a cost effective and proven business model, however, the end-users suffer greatly.
BINGO!


And I say this from a hobbyist standpoint. Remember when Fleer used to put out COOL sets?! Interesting and fun designs and concepts.

Now Panini and UD are putting out cold, moneymaking sets that offer overproduced hits and lack of lasting value to the end user.


It is all about the bottom line to the manufacturers, and thus has translated to being all about the bottom line to the end users!

I can't believe how many breaks I see on here and other sites that just show the BIG HIT and it's instantly on eBay with a link in the thread saying TAKING OFFERS!

I remember when I used to pull a nice card and I'd treasure it for a LONG time before finally making a trade because I got bored with the card ... not because it was about the MONEY!




Look at the baseball forum, every box/case break thread says "EVERYTHING GOING TO EBAY TONIGHT"

Not much trading, everyone just trying to make money! It's the way the companies are, and now the way the hobby is! (For the most part!)
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Old 11-28-2012, 01:07 PM   #209 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by tristan20 View Post
Anyone that thinks Panini products have value, obviously doesn't do must busting.

Break any Panini product and you instantly drop at least 50%, 99% of the time.

How many great busts do you see from Panini products? 1-5%? And usually the hit is a redemption which takes another 6 months to get.

Heck I would never bust another panini product ever! Even if they promise $100 bills in each box at $50 per box, it would be a redemption they cant fulfill and they would end up sending you some crappy $5 replacement.

And what are the HUGE hits in their products? A card that looks exactly like the last product they released which probably was probably 2 weeks old.


Panini needs to do a few things to get collectors to love them

Quit the cartoon looking Players! ITS UGLY AND Unreal!
Quit the Cutouts for stickers, makes no sense at all to cut a card and pop a sticker in there. Most are miscut windows that take away the beauty of the cards.
Quit the stickers on dark backgrounds, YOU CANT SEE THEM. Would rather have no sticker at all.
Quit the same images on every product! Using the same pictures / design and just changing the name doesn't make it any better
Quit the high prices, I understand Panini needs to make a profit. But hell it doesnt have to be a 99% profit, THE PRICES DON'T Justify the products!
Quit pumping out products within 2-3 weeks of one another, why compete with yourself? Combine a few products and make one good product.
Please start inserting the 1/1s in products (and not just advertising them when you aren't going to insert them), most of these huge hits are in Panini Black box which is given away at Nationals and have UGLY prints on them which state PANINI BLACK BOX.
I was going to post my thoughts, but then I realised that Tristan beat me to it.
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Old 11-28-2012, 01:12 PM   #210 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by paul06901 View Post
BINGO!


And I say this from a hobbyist standpoint. Remember when Fleer used to put out COOL sets?! Interesting and fun designs and concepts.

Now Panini and UD are putting out cold, moneymaking sets that offer overproduced hits and lack of lasting value to the end user.


It is all about the bottom line to the manufacturers, and thus has translated to being all about the bottom line to the end users!

I can't believe how many breaks I see on here and other sites that just show the BIG HIT and it's instantly on eBay with a link in the thread saying TAKING OFFERS!

I remember when I used to pull a nice card and I'd treasure it for a LONG time before finally making a trade because I got bored with the card ... not because it was about the MONEY!




Look at the baseball forum, every box/case break thread says "EVERYTHING GOING TO EBAY TONIGHT"

Not much trading, everyone just trying to make money! It's the way the companies are, and now the way the hobby is! (For the most part!)
You are saying this a decade later. I know for a fact you didnt find 97 skybox cool and fun!! 10 yrs later you find it cool and fun.
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Old 11-28-2012, 01:14 PM   #211 (permalink)
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I hope Panini keeps up with this. What this will do is flush out the flippers within the hobby that were looking to make money off of hyping. Hopefully this leads back to collectors and enjoying the notion of collecting.... NOT FLIPPING.

If you dont like it, get out. Simple as that. No one is forcing you to buy anything
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Old 11-28-2012, 01:22 PM   #212 (permalink)
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You are saying this a decade later. I know for a fact you didnt find 97 skybox cool and fun!! 10 yrs later you find it cool and fun.
How do you assume my past in the hobby? I already explained up until 1-2 years ago I was a collector first and foremost. And now with the poor economy and my personal financial status I can't afford to collect anymore.

I've been on eBay since 1999 because eBay was initially a resource for purchasing cards for me. I enjoyed the hobby so much and local shops/shows did not offer enough variety.


If it wasn't for a poor economy, a bad job, and lots of student loan debt I'd be sitting on a HUGE collection and able to enjoy collecting like some of the high rollers here...
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Old 11-28-2012, 01:40 PM   #213 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Orangejello727 View Post
I hope Panini keeps up with this. What this will do is flush out the flippers within the hobby that were looking to make money off of hyping. Hopefully this leads back to collectors and enjoying the notion of collecting.... NOT FLIPPING.

If you dont like it, get out. Simple as that. No one is forcing you to buy anything
Exactly!...All the flippers are mad cuz they cant make big money off of Panini cases/boxes!...I'm strictly a collector and I'm fine with Panini....Of course i liked UD better but theres also some nice Panini cards being made as well!..I get a kick out of all the Panini haters whining and crying daily cuz they cant make money off of Panini boxes....LOL...Time to get another job fellas!...
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Old 11-28-2012, 02:00 PM   #214 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by dmogull View Post
Panini is a large corporation concerned more with their bottom-line than their end-users. Sure, profitability and long-term viability are important to any business, but Panini, the multi-billion dollar conglomerate that they are, probably have a strict business model that standardizes many of their business procedures globally. This is possibly why 99% of their autographs are stickers, all of their designs look similar/generic, and the quality of the materials used on their cards is cheap and all look the same (similar to Taco Bell....they have many different menu options, but you could make them all with the same 5 ingredients...once you have had a taco, you have essentially tasted half the menu).

It is a cost effective and proven business model, however, the end-users suffer greatly.
I just want to say that that Taco Bell analogy is spectacular and spot-on. In the end, Taco Bell gives you the sh*ts.
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Old 11-28-2012, 02:05 PM   #215 (permalink)
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but why does it seem like Upper Deck gets a pass for doing the same things?

I can't tell you how many times I've seen the same college pictures recycled in their products
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Old 11-28-2012, 02:06 PM   #216 (permalink)
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How do you assume my past in the hobby? I already explained up until 1-2 years ago I was a collector first and foremost. And now with the poor economy and my personal financial status I can't afford to collect anymore.

I've been on eBay since 1999 because eBay was initially a resource for purchasing cards for me. I enjoyed the hobby so much and local shops/shows did not offer enough variety.


If it wasn't for a poor economy, a bad job, and lots of student loan debt I'd be sitting on a HUGE collection and able to enjoy collecting like some of the high rollers here...
Because in 1997 product never sold out. It sat on shelves all day long. Up until 2006, finding 97 wax was easy and cheap. Not until recently did this stuff finally dry up and go through the roof. Thats how I know.

You're telling me that you turned collector to flipper because of a bad job, debts and economic hardships? Thats a clear indication that card companies are not at fault. Thats personal budgeting, uncertain times and direness thats at fault. You cant put that blame on lack of quality and products from Panini.

Even if Panini put out a product you like, by your indication, you wouldnt be able to collect it anyways. I think you're putting blame on the wrong people. If we all had money, collecting and paying $$ wouldnt be an issue.

You're looking to susidise in your income. Nothing wrong with that at all. But like Ive stated before, you are looking at this hobby as a $$ maker, not a collector. Thats why the outlook is different than from my perspective because I dont look at it from that standpoint. I see it as a hobby. I dont depend on it whereas you do.
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Old 11-28-2012, 02:14 PM   #217 (permalink)
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but why does it seem like Upper Deck gets a pass for doing the same things?

I can't tell you how many times I've seen the same college pictures recycled in their products
Because UD made it into a money making business while Panini turns it back into a hobby. People hate the fact that they cant take advantage of the hobby to make income to replace 9 to 5 jobs. Im telling you right now, these same negative sentiments were said about Fleer/skybox back in the late 90s. The same negativity was said about 99 UD and 2001 UD regular. People didnt like them. They were crying foul at spending $80/box with a 1:2500 chance at pulling a jersey card. Today its the opposite, we are crying fould at pulling to many of them which in turn affects the supply and brings prices down!!

The same thing happend with the bubble burst on the housing market. Investors couldnt keep buying with marginal 5% down payments hoping time would help them cash in. They got frustrated and blamed the banks for the bottom falling out.

Same is happening here. People want to buy $100 box of cards in hopes of getting $500 out and selling it for $400 and making a quick flip profit to move to the next thing. When it doesnt happen, they get upset and cry foul about it.

To a collector a Tim Duncan base is a Tim Duncan base. Whether it costs him $1 or $10 to pick it up.

TO a flipper, a Time Duncan base is a loss at $1 but a winner at $10.

When that Timmy doesnt turn a profit, the product sucks. When it turns a product, its the best thing since sliced bread! But to a collector its still a Timmy base at $1 or $10.

Last edited by Orangejello727; 11-28-2012 at 02:16 PM.
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Old 11-28-2012, 02:53 PM   #218 (permalink)
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Because in 1997 product never sold out. It sat on shelves all day long. Up until 2006, finding 97 wax was easy and cheap. Not until recently did this stuff finally dry up and go through the roof. Thats how I know.

You're telling me that you turned collector to flipper because of a bad job, debts and economic hardships? Thats a clear indication that card companies are not at fault. Thats personal budgeting, uncertain times and direness thats at fault. You cant put that blame on lack of quality and products from Panini.

Even if Panini put out a product you like, by your indication, you wouldnt be able to collect it anyways. I think you're putting blame on the wrong people. If we all had money, collecting and paying $$ wouldnt be an issue.

You're looking to susidise in your income. Nothing wrong with that at all. But like Ive stated before, you are looking at this hobby as a $$ maker, not a collector. Thats why the outlook is different than from my perspective because I dont look at it from that standpoint. I see it as a hobby. I dont depend on it whereas you do.

I'm not looking at it from MAKING money standpoint at all in this arguement. I know how to look at it from both angles, and can distinguish my love for the hobby with my need for income. I'm specifically comparing the quality and design of the cards to the actual price that EVERYONE is paying, not just collectors or not just flippers, etc.


I'm also not saying it's the companies are at fault. However, the companies are fully responsible for what they produce. Whether or not it's what the collectors want.


I'm simply stating that Panini continues to make 2 steps forward and 3 steps back on every 'game-changing' release.




Put all money aside for a second, don't consider my argument biased (which it isn't, however you are interpreting it that way as my POV only looking at financials).

When it comes to wax I only bust, never sell. So my opinion on product prices and case prices is completely from a collector's standpoint. My opinion has zero impact on the hobby, so why would I try to direct my views here in some attempt to make me more money? Wouldn't happen.

The Prizm product for example has HOPE ... but a few minor changes would actually make it worth the $100 MAPP, and I don't mean worth it to only people looking to sell ... but even collectors want VALUE in their collection. And not just value, but also RARITY. The value would be there if they added a few more insert/parallel sets. Which would be at pretty much little to no cost to Panini and not water down the product.

Big checklist and limited parallels is fun too! Don't get me wrong, great for collectors. But they already did that in the card hobby, it's called Topps Total, and its $30/box not $100/box.



I understand you have a nicer product in Prizm overall, but my point is the schematic of design vs MAPP $ .... it used to make sense, and even considering inflation these days ... it doesn't make sense on Panini or UD products of the current!
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Old 11-28-2012, 03:02 PM   #219 (permalink)
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Put all money aside for a second, don't consider my argument biased (which it isn't, however you are interpreting it that way as my POV only looking at financials).

When it comes to wax I only bust, never sell. So my opinion on product prices and case prices is completely from a collector's standpoint. My opinion has zero impact on the hobby, so why would I try to direct my views here in some attempt to make me more money? Wouldn't happen.

The Prizm product for example has HOPE ... but a few minor changes would actually make it worth the $100 MAPP, and I don't mean worth it to only people looking to sell ... but even collectors want VALUE in their collection. And not just value, but also RARITY. The value would be there if they added a few more insert/parallel sets. Which would be at pretty much little to no cost to Panini and not water down the product.

Big checklist and limited parallels is fun too! Don't get me wrong, great for collectors. But they already did that in the card hobby, it's called Topps Total, and its $30/box not $100/box.



I understand you have a nicer product in Prizm overall, but my point is the schematic of design vs MAPP $ .... it used to make sense, and even considering inflation these days ... it doesn't make sense on Panini or UD products of the current!
Fine look at it from a collectors point of view..

Prizm is $100 a box.

4 boxes of Prizm - Killed it!

This man is a collector and broke 4 boxes.

Here is what he stated...

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Originally Posted by rauchand View Post
Yes, I am extremely happy even if I didn't hit the Kobe in the last box. This is the most fun ive had opening a product in a long time. Seeing gold got me real excited hoping for a star or good rookie. I was lucky to hit the shaq. The cards look amazing in hand.

So as a collector himself, he should be upset? But he isnt. He is happy. Explain to me again how this is a Failure from a collectors standpoint?

AT $100 MAPP, this man is happy. Happy because he had fun! He even states that pulling a kobe auto wasnt the driving factor. Fun was. He busted 4 boxes of "VALUE". Value found in the process of having fun busting wax. What it should have always been about.

Last edited by Orangejello727; 11-28-2012 at 03:05 PM.
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Old 11-28-2012, 03:07 PM   #220 (permalink)
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In my opinion, the hobby took a horrible turn when "boxes" started containing 1 pack with 5-7 cards. That's when it started becoming more about making money.

Also, I've said this before, I find it crazy that many people pay a card dealer and have him open the box on video and send the cards. Opening packs and boxes is so much fun I can't imagine having someone else do it for me.
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Old 11-28-2012, 03:31 PM   #221 (permalink)
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Exactly!...All the flippers are mad cuz they cant make big money off of Panini cases/boxes!...I'm strictly a collector and I'm fine with Panini....Of course i liked UD better but theres also some nice Panini cards being made as well!..I get a kick out of all the Panini haters whining and crying daily cuz they cant make money off of Panini boxes....LOL...Time to get another job fellas!...

I don't flip wax at all, and I don't like Panini's new releases. I think they're half-assed and watered down. And the attempts at creating value come up short on each product. I could careless about the value of the wax, I'm talking about the cards themselves.

They're completely different than late 90's, early 2000's UD/Topps/Fleer products. Those products were creative and innovative. And offered long-lasting value even in their lower end sets that made collecting enjoyable and affordable to collectors of ALL financial status'.

These day with MAPP $100+ for an average product, it really fine-tunes the target market that Panini and UD is after ... the addicted, maniac case breakers...
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Old 11-28-2012, 03:35 PM   #222 (permalink)
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I don't flip wax at all, and I don't like Panini's new releases. I think they're half-assed and watered down. And the attempts at creating value come up short on each product. I could careless about the value of the wax, I'm talking about the cards themselves.

They're completely different than late 90's, early 2000's UD/Topps/Fleer products. Those products were creative and innovative. And offered long-lasting value even in their lower end sets that made collecting enjoyable and affordable to collectors of ALL financial status'.

These day with MAPP $100+ for an average product, it really fine-tunes the target market that Panini and UD is after ... the addicted, maniac case breakers...
You keep poking the bear and saying that the 90s were exciting. They werent. THey only became exciting in the past few years. TO give you an example...

What value did you find in?

1997 Zforce? (1 Rave, 3 inserts and maybe 1 auto per box)
1997-98 Hoops? (1 auto per box and a few inserts)
1997-98 Skybox? (maybe 1 auto and a few inserts per box)
1997-98-99-00-01 UD (Pretty much nothing on average per box)

A case wouldnt yield you a 1:360 insert. You would be hard pressed to find a Ruby or a PMG. So what value did you get from it? Base cards were boring and dont trade these days. If you want a set, you can easily find one for $5. The cost of the product was $80 on average per box.

What value was there back then that doesnt exist in Prizm?
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Old 11-28-2012, 03:52 PM   #223 (permalink)
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You keep poking the bear and saying that the 90s were exciting. They werent. THey only became exciting in the past few years. TO give you an example...

What value did you find in?

1997 Zforce? (1 Rave, 3 inserts and maybe 1 auto per box)
1997-98 Hoops? (1 auto per box and a few inserts)
1997-98 Skybox? (maybe 1 auto and a few inserts per box)
1997-98-99-00-01 UD (Pretty much nothing on average per box)

A case wouldnt yield you a 1:360 insert. You would be hard pressed to find a Ruby or a PMG. So what value did you get from it? Base cards were boring and dont trade these days. If you want a set, you can easily find one for $5. The cost of the product was $80 on average per box.

What value was there back then that doesnt exist in Prizm?


You got me all wrong.

I'm not saying the value was there, I'm saying the HOBBY was there. The true spirit of the hobby. The collectibility of the cards, the simplicity yet the chase. The affordability.

The companies competed, and succeeded by creating products that collectors truly ENJOYED. These days most people are only concerned with the value they are getting from the product, Hence the reason for creating the Exquisite line...
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Old 11-28-2012, 04:03 PM   #224 (permalink)
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You got me all wrong.

I'm not saying the value was there, I'm saying the HOBBY was there. The true spirit of the hobby. The collectibility of the cards, the simplicity yet the chase. The affordability.

The companies competed, and succeeded by creating products that collectors truly ENJOYED. These days most people are only concerned with the value they are getting from the product, Hence the reason for creating the Exquisite line...
The thread is about why people hate Panini. My argument is they hate Panini because they themselves as collectors have lost their perspective of collecting is all about.

The value was there in the 90s. Fun was the value. The value is there today. Fun is the value. Whats not there is the quick time turnover to make profits. Fun has been replaced with $$.
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Old 11-28-2012, 04:12 PM   #225 (permalink)
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The thread is about why people hate Panini. My argument is they hate Panini because they themselves as collectors have lost their perspective of collecting is all about.

The value was there in the 90s. Fun was the value. The value is there today. Fun is the value. Whats not there is the quick time turnover to make profits. Fun has been replaced with $$.
I agree with the statements, but the actual quality to the cards is not there. Whether it's what the collectors 'wanted' or not ... it's changed.


Watered down, repeat products with huge flash but no real true holding value. Value is based on the WANT by collectors/buyers. When a product is flashy like the certified greens, and they water it down the next year with basically the same exact set .... and instantly values are poor in comparison ... it's obvious collectors liked the 10-11 release because it was DIFFERENT and INTRIGUING ... Panini doesn't get this, even in their sell sheet they stressed "the return of the poplular certified green parallels!".

I find it funny how a set like Certified Green #/5 from 10-11 can go NUTS ... and Panini uses that as fuel for this years release ... but they don't TRULY UNDERSTAND *WHY* it did so well.

It did great because collectors want something DIFFERENT that looks great and is rare. Panini simply cannot get this through their brains. Come out withe some new, cutting edge die-cut designs with COOL technology. Rainbow foils, ruby-like effects, acetate, INTERESTING and NEW designs that are intriguing. Don't try to replicate and repeat. That's what Panini's designers are doing ... replicating and repeating ... it's boring and bland and they really are not capitalizing on what is available to them at this point in the game!
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