BIG MJ TRADE EXQUISITE against RETRO...What do you think about??

[verona]

Originally Posted by cardsdownunder

good to hear that not just this thread was for kicks and giggles

Sarcastic? I think yes!

[hermanotarjeta]

Originally Posted by SportsItUpCards

BINGO!!!

My guess is, even lower than 7k... more like 3k to 4k or less, if the right person comes along. These "sales" can't last forever, and the prices WILL go down.

I think the Fleer Retro Green/10 will do very well in the future.

Yes, the fleer retro green will be a $100,000 card in the future, and you will be able to find the exquisite flashback at your local card show for $3000.

It's the biggest no-brainer in the history of mankind, I can't believe you are keeping the flashback

[verona]

Originally Posted by forgiven1

Do not let go of that Jordan Exquisite!....If you do, you take the chance of never seeing it again!

Yes, I think the same!!!!!!!!!!

[spinotron]

Originally Posted by hermanotarjeta

For those defending either of these cards, and I see people "speculating" that a so and so card is worth $30,000 - what exactly are any of your qualifications to make such outlandish estimates?

Have any of you guys ever spent over $20,000 on a single card before? I know a few here have, and perhaps they have better insight on the "value" of a card rather than someone who has never even spent over $1000 for a single card before.

Until you have actually done so, I question some of the people on these boards giving price values for very expensive cards - if you have no intention or do not have the means to do it, can you really give a realistic value on a "five figure card". Methinks reality is skewed for many folks on here.....

Originally Posted by Orangejello727

This is what im talking about. Setting a "Tier" leven amongst card collectors. Doesnt exist in any sport except basketball.

To answer your question, those who spend $20k on cards are less knowledgable about the hobby and card prices than those who dont spend 20k on a single card.

Just because I dont own a Ferrari doesnt mean I cant afford one and because I dont own one doesnt mean I dont know how to drive fast either! But I guess in this hobby, the more $$ you spend on cards makes you a "Master"? or makes you the end all of facts? Is that what you are saying here? Because to me it sure seems like a case of "Unless you spend $20k on a card, you dont know jack about cards" mentality.

This was a miff question asked by the OP who clearly knew what he was doing. He offered up the card. Then when got a reply for a trade pretty quick, he rethought it. Simple as that.

As to which card you would take? Who knows and who cares. Isnt that the end goal of collecting? To be content or happy with buying, trading or selling for whatever it is that made you happy? Or is it about coming out ahead and $$ valuing ? If its all about the "Bengamins" then this hobby isnt the best place to make bets!!

This is just another prime example of people looking or wanting to "Fit in" and be "popular" based on the cards in their collection. If the majority of the boards tell you to keep that MJ Exquisite because THEY like it much better, how does that fulfill your collecting goals? If they choose to like PMG green, how would that fulfill your collecting goals? The ONLY question and answer that should be here is whatever the OP wants. Not everyone else.

I think what hermanotarjeta tries to say here is, sometimes people throw out those high dollar number like nothing, 20k this or 30k that. This valuation could be just a pure guess and yet will get carried around and give impression to people that the real value like that or close to that is under discussion. In reality, it's very hard to commit to pay 20k or 30k for a single card. I agree people who are not in the market for high-priced items can have a pretty good understand and fair estimation based on observation and comparison. I also think valuation from a person is only credible, if that person is willing to purchase the said item at that price among other choices (if hypothetically he has the funds to do so), or knows fairly certainly that certain specific people will pay around that, or using comparison to a card with known market value.

[Diakonos]

enough of this.

Someone bought this MJ Blue PMG /50 for $20,000 9/8/12 according to Ebay: 2012 Upper Deck Fleer Retro Michael Jordan Blue Precious Metal Gems 23/50 Pmg | eBay

which is why people on BO speculated $20k or $30k. well they certainly haven't checked ebay within the past few weeks.

my point is. which no one else cared to comment on is that these fleer retro PMGs are going DOWN in price. case in example same card just 8 days later went for $10k 11-12 Fleer Retro Michael Jordan Precious Metal Gems PMG Blue 24/50 | eBay

and even further down to $7k on 9/27/12 11-12 Fleer Retro Michael Jordan PMG BLUE 25/50 precious metal gem | eBay


just two days ago $4.5k 11-12 UD Fleer Retro MICHAEL JORDAN Precious Metal Gems BLUE PMG /50 RARE! | eBay

etc...

personally i wouldn't pay $1k for a (they call retro) I call it a Knockoff PMG not even in Bulls Uni. there's a reason why MJ NC uni autos & Wizard Uni autos go for less than MJ Bulls Uni.

seems pretty clear to me why the guy with the MJ knockoff PMG would accept that trade in an instant.

[hermanotarjeta]

Originally Posted by Orangejello727

This is what im talking about. Setting a "Tier" leven amongst card collectors. Doesnt exist in any sport except basketball.

To answer your question, those who spend $20k on cards are less knowledgable about the hobby and card prices than those who dont spend 20k on a single card.

Just because I dont own a Ferrari doesnt mean I cant afford one and because I dont own one doesnt mean I dont know how to drive fast either! But I guess in this hobby, the more $$ you spend on cards makes you a "Master"? or makes you the end all of facts? Is that what you are saying here? Because to me it sure seems like a case of "Unless you spend $20k on a card, you dont know jack about cards" mentality.

This was a miff question asked by the OP who clearly knew what he was doing. He offered up the card. Then when got a reply for a trade pretty quick, he rethought it. Simple as that.

As to which card you would take? Who knows and who cares. Isnt that the end goal of collecting? To be content or happy with buying, trading or selling for whatever it is that made you happy? Or is it about coming out ahead and $$ valuing ? If its all about the "Bengamins" then this hobby isnt the best place to make bets!!

This is just another prime example of people looking or wanting to "Fit in" and be "popular" based on the cards in their collection. If the majority of the boards tell you to keep that MJ Exquisite because THEY like it much better, how does that fulfill your collecting goals? If they choose to like PMG green, how would that fulfill your collecting goals? The ONLY question and answer that should be here is whatever the OP wants. Not everyone else.

Yah, I was mainly targeting those who have no interest in purchasing a certain card but claim to be an expert on how much a card should be worth. I don't have any interest in the retro green, and therefore, I'm not going to try to speculate what one would go for, if I did, it would be just a completely random guess.

I, on the other hand, know exactly what I am willing to pay for an exquisite jordan flashback, and therefore that gives me a better on insight on what the value of that specific card should be.

You have to agree, if you are in the market for a specific card, you will have a better insight on how much that card will go for.

It's not a rich guy versus poor guy thing, but more of putting your money where your mouth is.

Just blurting out that a card is worth $30,000 is ridiculous when you are presented with that same card for $25,000 and decline to purchase it, whether or not you have the funds.

That's why i've been trying to dig up some actual recent completed sales of BOTH cards- you can't find any for the flashback, and the guy who pulled the green on these boards knows how much he sold it for, but just because it sold for a certain price doesn't mean that the card is going to sell for that same prices for all ten copies. Maybe the guy who wants it second most is only willing to pay $15,000 for a green. Just because theoretically the first green sold for $30,000, doesn't mean every single one is worth that much.

It's only worth as much as how much the next guy is willing to pay for it. Of course, if the first buyer is willing to pay 30k for all ten copies, then that's a different story.....

[pepsiporch]

Originally Posted by Diakonos

enough of this.

Someone bought this MJ Blue PMG /50 for $20,000 9/8/12 according to Ebay: 2012 Upper Deck Fleer Retro Michael Jordan Blue Precious Metal Gems 23/50 Pmg | eBay

which is why people on BO speculated $20k or $30k. well they certainly haven't checked ebay within the past few weeks.

my point is. which no one else cared to comment on is that these fleer retro PMGs are going DOWN in price. case in example same card just 8 days later went for $10k 11-12 Fleer Retro Michael Jordan Precious Metal Gems PMG Blue 24/50 | eBay

and even further down to $7k on 9/27/12 11-12 Fleer Retro Michael Jordan PMG BLUE 25/50 precious metal gem | eBay


just two days ago $4.5k 11-12 UD Fleer Retro MICHAEL JORDAN Precious Metal Gems BLUE PMG /50 RARE! | eBay

etc...

personally i wouldn't pay $1k for a (they call retro) I call it a Knockoff PMG not even in Bulls Uni. there's a reason why MJ NC uni autos & Wizard Uni autos go for less than MJ Bulls Uni.

seems pretty clear to me why the guy with the MJ knockoff PMG would accept that trade in an instant.

A line thru a green pmg hurts its value tremendously . A blue retro that sold for 4500 and has a ref line also . Green Mj with no lines is worth over 20k and person with flashback probably would not have a shot to trade .You dont have to pay $1000 because you will never get one .

If the person that started this thread wanted to hear his card is worth alot and its beautiful Here you go .
Your flashback is nice .
But it not a pmg my friend not even close to a original pmg . You have collectors that like exquisite and some that like both and some that like pmgs .
/10
/23

[Orangejello727]

Originally Posted by hermanotarjeta

Yah, I was mainly targeting those who have no interest in purchasing a certain card but claim to be an expert on how much a card should be worth. I don't have any interest in the retro green, and therefore, I'm not going to try to speculate what one would go for, if I did, it would be just a completely random guess.

I, on the other hand, know exactly what I am willing to pay for an exquisite jordan flashback, and therefore that gives me a better on insight on what the value of that specific card should be.

You have to agree, if you are in the market for a specific card, you will have a better insight on how much that card will go for.

It's not a rich guy versus poor guy thing, but more of putting your money where your mouth is.

Just blurting out that a card is worth $30,000 is ridiculous when you are presented with that same card for $25,000 and decline to purchase it, whether or not you have the funds.

That's why i've been trying to dig up some actual recent completed sales of BOTH cards- you can't find any for the flashback, and the guy who pulled the green on these boards knows how much he sold it for, but just because it sold for a certain price doesn't mean that the card is going to sell for that same prices for all ten copies. Maybe the guy who wants it second most is only willing to pay $15,000 for a green. Just because theoretically the first green sold for $30,000, doesn't mean every single one is worth that much.

It's only worth as much as how much the next guy is willing to pay for it. Of course, if the first buyer is willing to pay 30k for all ten copies, then that's a different story.....

For the most part, we wont see any actual sales of the mj green pmg. I highly doubt we will see an actual ending price to a retro mj patch auto either. In both cases a deal with be hammered out in confidence, just like every big card is. I personally think ebay is a tool used to set a ceiling price on cards. Who knows if people actually pay the price we see. For example..

I throw a MJ retro patch auto up for a BIN at $75,000. You (being my friend) offer me $66,000 and I accept. You leave me feedback in 7 days and I do the same for you. Now comes all the people who have now seen and recorded a selling price of the card at $66k. You and I cancel the transaction and in reality save me fees while you pay me a true price of $25k gift. 2 months later, you put the card up for sale with a $100k BIN and someone else (a friend) offers you $75k and you accept it. Leave feedback, cancel transaction and sell it on the side for say $30k. Now you have 2 transactions recorded with legitimate looking sales. Tada, we have now created a going rate for this card and let everyone dwell on these recent trends in hopes a big spender notices and finally pays the $100k before it gets way out of hand and too expensive.

I agree that if there was a buy price offered out there, its much easier to verify a true sale as the buyer puts a price he is willing to pay. But like we have seen in the past, these high end cards will trade hands and the prices will be kept confident. Paul sold his green PMG for $xxxx. NOne of us know the price. If anything, everyones guess is a shot in the dark at what the price paid was.

To each their own, but in reality even people with deep pockets can fall into the trap of misconception. Evenmore so when $$ might not be as big of a factor on overspending.

[zip726]

if you want to make big coin trade it

[ninjacookies]

Only card I'd consider trading that retro jordan patch/auto for would be his 97 UD all star jersey auto /23.

[verona]

Originally Posted by pepsiporch

A line thru a green pmg hurts its value tremendously . A blue retro that sold for 4500 and has a ref line also . Green Mj with no lines is worth over 20k and person with flashback probably would not have a shot to trade .You dont have to pay $1000 because you will never get one .

If the person that started this thread wanted to hear his card is worth alot and its beautiful Here you go .
Your flashback is nice .
But it not a pmg my friend not even close to a original pmg . You have collectors that like exquisite and some that like both and some that like pmgs .
/10
/23

Yes, good point!!

[tristan20]

Originally Posted by hermanotarjeta

Yah, I was mainly targeting those who have no interest in purchasing a certain card but claim to be an expert on how much a card should be worth. I don't have any interest in the retro green, and therefore, I'm not going to try to speculate what one would go for, if I did, it would be just a completely random guess.

I, on the other hand, know exactly what I am willing to pay for an exquisite jordan flashback, and therefore that gives me a better on insight on what the value of that specific card should be.

You have to agree, if you are in the market for a specific card, you will have a better insight on how much that card will go for.

It's not a rich guy versus poor guy thing, but more of putting your money where your mouth is.

Just blurting out that a card is worth $30,000 is ridiculous when you are presented with that same card for $25,000 and decline to purchase it, whether or not you have the funds.

That's why i've been trying to dig up some actual recent completed sales of BOTH cards- you can't find any for the flashback, and the guy who pulled the green on these boards knows how much he sold it for, but just because it sold for a certain price doesn't mean that the card is going to sell for that same prices for all ten copies. Maybe the guy who wants it second most is only willing to pay $15,000 for a green. Just because theoretically the first green sold for $30,000, doesn't mean every single one is worth that much.

It's only worth as much as how much the next guy is willing to pay for it. Of course, if the first buyer is willing to pay 30k for all ten copies, then that's a different story.....

Flashbacks were selling for $6500 (A record price at that time) when the product came out, the highest I have seen one sell for was $11k about a year ago on ebay.

The reason you find more greens now is because the product just came out, as with any product there will be people selling them while they are hot. But check back 1 year from now, you will find ZERO.

Both cards are worth some coin, its all about finding the right buyer.

In the end a /10 card is still more rare than a /25 card that's just plain fact.

Another fact is, whoever is doing a PMG Green set has to be loaded, no ordinary person would drop that kind of dough on an insert.

I can name about 10 top collectors that own the Retro Exquisite Jordan, I can only name one that owns a green jordan retro.

Gimme either one I will be a happy camper :-)

[verona]

Originally Posted by tristan20

Flashbacks were selling for $6500 (A record price at that time) when the product came out, the highest I have seen one sell for was $11k about a year ago on ebay.

The reason you find more greens now is because the product just came out, as with any product there will be people selling them while they are hot. But check back 1 year from now, you will find ZERO.

Both cards are worth some coin, its all about finding the right buyer.

In the end a /10 card is still more rare than a /25 card that's just plain fact.

Another fact is, whoever is doing a PMG Green set has to be loaded, no ordinary person would drop that kind of dough on an insert.

I can name about 10 top collectors that own the Retro Exquisite Jordan, I can only name one that owns a green jordan retro.

Gimme either one I will be a happy camper :-)

Really?? How are those guys how own the Retro Exquisite? Hermano, Masterpiececollector...I only know this two!

[fullmetal]

That is why I stated that the price will come back down. When the 09-10 Exquisite set came out the Jordan auto/patch 'retro RC' was in the $4000 - $6500 range. I can't say I have ever seen one sell for more than $10,000

I don't have the money or the interest in either card, but if someone offered me the hottest card on the market (Jordan green /10) for a card that might fetch $10K I would make the trade and sell the higher valued Jordan green /10 and wait.

I promise the Exquisite Jordan will come back around for much less than you sell the hottest card on the market for.

[pepsiporch]

Originally Posted by fullmetal

That is why I stated that the price will come back down. When the 09-10 Exquisite set came out the Jordan auto/patch 'retro RC' was in the $4000 - $6500 range. I can't say I have ever seen one sell for more than $10,000

I don't have the money or the interest in either card, but if someone offered me the hottest card on the market (Jordan green /10) for a card that might fetch $10K I would make the trade and sell the higher valued Jordan green /10 and wait.

I promise the Exquisite Jordan will come back around for much less than you sell the hottest card on the market for.

Will you be able to get a green retro for 10k in the future ?

[fullmetal]

Originally Posted by pepsiporch

Will you be able to get a green retro for 10k in the future ?

That isn't relevant to the question. The OP likes the Exquisite better. Why not use it to swing a better card (right now) and profit on the difference in value?

[cardsdownunder]

Originally Posted by verona

Really?? How are those guys how own the Retro Exquisite? Hermano, Masterpiececollector...I only know this two!

lol now we know why hermana is so biased against the green. no surprise there

both cards are beauts. cant go wrong with either one. and i can't believe we're still discussing a trade that was never even really considered by the op in the first place.

[thecomebacker]

Yes, a /10 card is rarer than a /23 card (FACT). But a /10 card is not always "worth" more than a /23 card of the same player (also FACT).

And you know why you can name 10 TOP MJ collectors witht the Flashback and only one with the College Green? No, its not because these TOP collectors cannot afford the College Green and obviously the Green is not impossible to find today like the original Green. Its becasue most TOP MJ collectors don't even regard these new retro greens in college uniform as a "must-have" cards in their collection. They think of them more as a bad joke from UD.

Originally Posted by tristan20

Flashbacks were selling for $6500 (A record price at that time) when the product came out, the highest I have seen one sell for was $11k about a year ago on ebay.

The reason you find more greens now is because the product just came out, as with any product there will be people selling them while they are hot. But check back 1 year from now, you will find ZERO.

Both cards are worth some coin, its all about finding the right buyer.

In the end a /10 card is still more rare than a /25 card that's just plain fact.

Another fact is, whoever is doing a PMG Green set has to be loaded, no ordinary person would drop that kind of dough on an insert.

I can name about 10 top collectors that own the Retro Exquisite Jordan, I can only name one that owns a green jordan retro.

Gimme either one I will be a happy camper :-)

[cardsdownunder]

Originally Posted by thecomebacker

Yes, a /10 card is rarer than a /23 card (FACT). But a /10 card is not always "worth" more than a /23 card of the same player (also FACT).

And you know why you can name 10 TOP MJ collectors witht the Flashback and only one with the College Green? No, its not because these TOP collectors cannot afford the College Green and obviously the Green is not impossible to find today like the original Green. Its becasue most TOP MJ collectors don't even regard these new retro greens in college uniform as a "must-have" cards in their collection. They think of them more as a bad joke from UD.

i guess this explains why the prices for the mj and lebron greens and blues are so low. lmao. oh yeah, almost forgot:

[Orangejello727]

Originally Posted by thecomebacker

Yes, a /10 card is rarer than a /23 card (FACT). But a /10 card is not always "worth" more than a /23 card of the same player (also FACT).

And you know why you can name 10 TOP MJ collectors witht the Flashback and only one with the College Green? No, its not because these TOP collectors cannot afford the College Green and obviously the Green is not impossible to find today like the original Green. Its becasue most TOP MJ collectors don't even regard these new retro greens in college uniform as a "must-have" cards in their collection. They think of them more as a bad joke from UD.

You're talking about 2 different types of collectors. I assure you a serious MJ PC will want a Green PMG retro MJ for their collection. Especially if they have the 97 version. Its a player collection, not a set collection. Being in a college uni makes no difference to a player collector if he has chosen his criteria to focus on player before brand.

If its a set collector, sure it plays a bigger role. To each their own on what they collect whether it be retro or exquisite.

Look at spinotron. He is a player collector. He paired up his collection to match that of 97 even after taking into consideration that retro pmgs are college. He chose to pair it up. We cannot decide what the collector will do or wont do. Lets just throw that out the window.

As for rarity? a green pmg is much rarer than the retro patch auto. Simply by numbers. Sure the retro patch doesnt show up that often, but it has had 4 yrs to settle into collections from the market place. Have you given the MJ green pmg 4 yrs to settle out of the market yet? No. We'll see in 4 yrs how often you come by an MJ green retro pmg. Forget the price/value. Just simple supply standards here. The only linear status here is the supply number. 23 vs 10. Simple logic, the 23 has more oppurtunity to show up than the 10. Dont factor in demand because we cannot control it. Dont factor in price because we cant control that either...or can we? lol

As stated before, it all depends on the collector and what he chooses to fulfill his obligations to his collection. We all know for ourselves on which we would pick. THe main thing here to realize is neither is wrong or right, but rather a choice based on taste.

[thecomebacker]

OJ, Man I don't know what happened to you the last few weeks, but you sound like a different man. You recent replies have all be well written and eloquent. I got to say....you points comes across much stronger when put in this manner and they are all-well taken. Although I still have some disagreement about the "perceived" value of the New PMGs......but like you said, at the end of the day, every collector is different and that there is no right or wrong.

[hermanotarjeta]

Originally Posted by fullmetal

That isn't relevant to the question. The OP likes the Exquisite better. Why not use it to swing a better card (right now) and profit on the difference in value?

Cause if he gives up the exquisite flashback now, he will not be able to get another one in the future.

I think this is where I disagree. He may profit now, but with his extra cash, he won't be able to replace the flashback in the future with his profit, he may actually need to pay more to get it back.

[hermanotarjeta]

Originally Posted by cardsdownunder

lol now we know why hermana is so biased against the green. no surprise there

both cards are beauts. cant go wrong with either one. and i can't believe we're still discussing a trade that was never even really considered by the op in the first place.

LOL, i'm biased towards the flashback cause I own one and I have pride in my collection.

I'm not a green retro hater, I just don't collect college uni jordans.

I'm sure there are some high-end jordan guys that collect college uni stuff, I just choose not too, especially when there are so many licensed issue jordans on the market.

I don't think I'm the only guy who has no desire for college stuff, there are others who don't want it either, and for this reason, the people who want a retro green should be glad they have less competition for the card. I'm glad that I don't have to pay so much for the card since I have no interest in it.

The green is still a nice looking card, but it just doesn't fit within my collecting goals.

There are enough high end jordan guys out there that the population report of 10 vs. 23 doesn't really matter in the big picture.

If there are 10 guys out there willing to pay X amount for a jordan green, and 23 guys out there willing to pay X amount for a jordan flashback, the price may still come out to be the same.

I agree, though, that the 10 is at higher risk of being hoarded. I think for a while 2 collectors owned 8 of the 10 originial pmg green jordans, and as i've alluded to before, that's one way to control market value, even if there are only 10 people in the world who would pay X amount for an original green jordan.

Also, these cards may not be as liquid as most people think. It's scary to complete a transaction across the ocean for a five figure card. Many things can go wrong, on both sides.

[yaoming]

Originally Posted by Orangejello727

For the most part, we wont see any actual sales of the mj green pmg. I highly doubt we will see an actual ending price to a retro mj patch auto either. In both cases a deal with be hammered out in confidence, just like every big card is. I personally think ebay is a tool used to set a ceiling price on cards. Who knows if people actually pay the price we see. For example..

I throw a MJ retro patch auto up for a BIN at $75,000. You (being my friend) offer me $66,000 and I accept. You leave me feedback in 7 days and I do the same for you. Now comes all the people who have now seen and recorded a selling price of the card at $66k. You and I cancel the transaction and in reality save me fees while you pay me a true price of $25k gift. 2 months later, you put the card up for sale with a $100k BIN and someone else (a friend) offers you $75k and you accept it. Leave feedback, cancel transaction and sell it on the side for say $30k. Now you have 2 transactions recorded with legitimate looking sales. Tada, we have now created a going rate for this card and let everyone dwell on these recent trends in hopes a big spender notices and finally pays the $100k before it gets way out of hand and too expensive.

I agree that if there was a buy price offered out there, its much easier to verify a true sale as the buyer puts a price he is willing to pay. But like we have seen in the past, these high end cards will trade hands and the prices will be kept confident. Paul sold his green PMG for $xxxx. NOne of us know the price. If anything, everyones guess is a shot in the dark at what the price paid was.

To each their own, but in reality even people with deep pockets can fall into the trap of misconception. Evenmore so when $$ might not be as big of a factor on overspending.

OJ.... this is an outstanding summary of what has been happening for years, probably, and unfortunately, in our hobby
I have been in and out of the hobby , and this is what I suspected recently.
You just summarized it so well
There are some "big time" sellers out there on ebay, and who knows, they might actually know each others, brothers, friends, etc, and manipulate this price

I believed, Gio (Sportitups) mentioned the same thing about the Finest refractor gold embossed.

How do we really know?

Personally, I prefer owning a card that is # 99 or 250 (eg Lebron ultimate RC) or even 500 (eg. Lebron SPA RC)
at least, you can find out how much other cards are selling for
because they will be a lot of them

[Orangejello727]

Originally Posted by hermanotarjeta

Cause if he gives up the exquisite flashback now, he will not be able to get another one in the future.

I think this is where I disagree. He may profit now, but with his extra cash, he won't be able to replace the flashback in the future with his profit, he may actually need to pay more to get it back.

Are you suggesting that a Green PMG MJ will be much easier to come by in the future comared to the retro patch auto? If so, how can you come up with that argument??

The most rarest of cards would probably fall on the 97 pmg green MJ. ONly 1 has come up for action in the past 6 yrs. Ive seen more retros patch autos up for auction compared to Jordan Retro pmg greens.