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Old 10-06-2012, 04:42 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Default 1986 fleer basketball sequence

1986 fleer Jordan RC was the first ever trading card I knew about. So I've been very interested in the 86 fleer sequence.

I've found 7 pack break results (never opened one myself) and a very good post about the sequence (don't know if I can post the link here). That post pointed out the 66 cards apart rule but didn't say much about the mid-pack "flip".

According to the pack break data I found (mostly from youtube) I'm pretty sure the flip is not completely random. The flip occurs because the sequence hits the left end of the uncut sheet (1, or 12, or ... or 111 or 122). And after the flip the sequence starts from the right end, 11, or 22, or ... or 121 or 132.

The meanig of this is, you will never get a #57 Jordan because of a mid-pack flip, which means you can know if a Jordan is inside just by looking at the first card of a pack.

But thers's still one thing, every box of 86 fleer contains 3 sets and another 36 cards, I still don't know how these 36 extra cards were arranged into packs.

Anyone can shed some light on this ?
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Old 10-06-2012, 06:14 PM   #2 (permalink)
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1986 fleer Jordan RC was the first ever trading card I knew about. So I've been very interested in the 86 fleer sequence.

I've found 7 pack break results (never opened one myself) and a very good post about the sequence (don't know if I can post the link here). That post pointed out the 66 cards apart rule but didn't say much about the mid-pack "flip".

According to the pack break data I found (mostly from youtube) I'm pretty sure the flip is not completely random. The flip occurs because the sequence hits the left end of the uncut sheet (1, or 12, or ... or 111 or 122). And after the flip the sequence starts from the right end, 11, or 22, or ... or 121 or 132.

The meanig of this is, you will never get a #57 Jordan because of a mid-pack flip, which means you can know if a Jordan is inside just by looking at the first card of a pack.

But thers's still one thing, every box of 86 fleer contains 3 sets and another 36 cards, I still don't know how these 36 extra cards were arranged into packs.

Anyone can shed some light on this ?
Not correct. The sequence can flip mid pack and yield a Jordan.
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Old 10-06-2012, 06:21 PM   #3 (permalink)
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Not correct. The sequence can flip mid pack and yield a Jordan.
Have you seen this yourself? I believe all flips start from the right end of the uncut sheet so you can't get a Jordan (2nd card from the left) after a flip.
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Old 10-06-2012, 07:11 PM   #4 (permalink)
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Taken directly from another forum:

A complete, unsearched box yields 3 or 4 Jordans, no more, no less. For that matter, it yields 3 or 4 of every card, no more, no less. Fleer's collation was excellent during the 80s basketball years.

36 packs per box x 12 cards per pack = 432 cards per box

432 cards per box divided by 132 cards per set = 3.27 sets per box

So in addition to getting three sets per box, there's a 27% chance of finding a fourth Jordan, Barkley, Ewing, etc. This math holds true for the stickers as well. Since the mid 70s when Topps went to a single series printing through the 90s when short prints were introduced back into the hobby, it has been all about the math. You simply cannot average a Rickey Henderson rookie per 1980 Topps wax box; the math does not support it. You can't average a Griffey rookie per 1989 Upper Deck wax box (low or high); the math does not support it, no matter how bad the collation is.

Mike's description of the sequence is sort of correct. The cards fall in two parallel reverse alphabetical order sequence, alternating cards, 66 cards apart. Not counting the sticker (which is randomly paired with the 12 cards, but still follows the same mathematical insertion rate), starting from the top card (face up, next to the gum), a pack may look like this:

#58 Clark Kellogg
#123 Buck Williams
#57 Michael Jordan
#122 Gerald Wilkins
#56 Vinnie Johnson
#121 Dominique Wilkins
#55 Steve Johnson
#120 Spud Webb
#54 Marques Johnson
#119 Bill Walton
#53 Magic Johnson
#118 Jay Vincent

When you see what an uncut sheet looks like, you can see why the cards are collated this way.
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Old 10-06-2012, 07:36 PM   #5 (permalink)
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Excellent information ninjacookies!
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Old 10-06-2012, 07:46 PM   #6 (permalink)
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Whoa, whoa, whoa...before I prescribe to this "theory", I need more proof.

We need to see SEVERAL box breaks ON VIDEO seeing each card pulled from every pack before anyone should believe this.

Then, and only then, would I even think of buying this.

Cute though.
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Old 10-06-2012, 07:58 PM   #7 (permalink)
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Whoa, whoa, whoa...before I prescribe to this "theory", I need more proof.

We need to see SEVERAL box breaks ON VIDEO seeing each card pulled from every pack before anyone should believe this.

Then, and only then, would I even think of buying this.

Cute though.
Actually no you dont. What Ninjacookies copied is pretty spot on for unsearcehd, untampered with 86/87 packs
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Old 10-06-2012, 08:07 PM   #8 (permalink)
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Yip, that is the correct sequence. Good way to tell if you've been purchasing resealed packs of ebay.
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Old 10-06-2012, 10:28 PM   #9 (permalink)
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7 pack break results I found

118,52,117,51,116,50,115,49,114,48,113,47
22,87,21,86,20,85,19,84,18,83,17,82
85,19,84,18,83,17,82,16,81,15,80,14
56,122,33,99,32,98,31,97,30,96,29,95 (flipped)
124,57,123,56,122,33,99,32,98,31,97,30 (flipped)
91,25,90,24,89,23,132,66,131,65,130,64 (flipped)
127,60,126,59,125,58,124,57,123,56,122,77 (flipped)
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Old 10-06-2012, 10:41 PM   #10 (permalink)
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So basically it is impossible to find an unsearched pack of this product?
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Old 10-06-2012, 10:56 PM   #11 (permalink)
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So basically it is impossible to find an unsearched pack of this product?
Not if you buy from Steve Hart
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Old 10-06-2012, 11:01 PM   #12 (permalink)
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And 1 more flipped pack, thanks to jr24ai3's info

57,122,56,99,33,98,32,97,31,96,30,95 (and a Jordan sticker, a Jordan on the top and bottom)
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Old 10-06-2012, 11:08 PM   #13 (permalink)
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Not if you buy from Steve Hart
/ thread....
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Old 10-06-2012, 11:21 PM   #14 (permalink)
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Not if you buy from Steve Hart
Soooooo......... who is that?
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Old 10-07-2012, 12:57 AM   #15 (permalink)
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Soooooo......... who is that?
BBC Exchange. The only place I will buy vintage wax from. He knows vintage packs inside and out. You can trust that he does not search his packs. People have received Jordan RCs, 1975 topps packs w/ a Yount or Brett RC showing, lots of good stuff.
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Old 10-07-2012, 08:53 AM   #16 (permalink)
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Actually no you dont. What Ninjacookies copied is pretty spot on for unsearcehd, untampered with 86/87 packs
Lol, where's your proof? Anyone can say anything.

Count me as one of those people who need to see it before I believe it. Until then, it's just talk.
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Old 10-07-2012, 09:56 AM   #17 (permalink)
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Lol, where's your proof? Anyone can say anything.

Count me as one of those people who need to see it before I believe it. Until then, it's just talk.
So you are one of those "We never landed on the moon" people?
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Old 10-07-2012, 06:14 PM   #18 (permalink)
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So you are one of those "We never landed on the moon" people?
No, I'm just skeptical about people posting on an internet card forum claiming they have cracked some code regarding 86-87 Fleer boxes.

Call me a cynic.
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Old 10-07-2012, 06:23 PM   #19 (permalink)
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No, I'm just skeptical about people posting on an internet card forum claiming they have cracked some code regarding 86-87 Fleer boxes.

Call me a cynic.
If you do a little research you can learn a lot... This has been known for a long time just another reason I won't even by graded packs of this product.
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Old 10-08-2012, 12:56 PM   #20 (permalink)
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The sequence thing is pretty well know. I've also seen threads where a "Jordan-less" pack by top card flips and yields a Jordan.
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Old 10-08-2012, 01:10 PM   #21 (permalink)
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No, I'm just skeptical about people posting on an internet card forum claiming they have cracked some code regarding 86-87 Fleer boxes.

Call me a cynic.
If this was NEW information I would be right there with you - however this is ancient information.
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Old 10-08-2012, 03:30 PM   #22 (permalink)
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Are there any videos out there of people actually breaking the packs open and showing this sequence? You would think someone would have done this by now to help prove this theory. Would like to see that.
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Old 10-08-2012, 03:58 PM   #23 (permalink)
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Are there any videos out there of people actually breaking the packs open and showing this sequence? You would think someone would have done this by now to help prove this theory. Would like to see that.

The idea that cards fall 66 cards apart is not a theory, that is fact. The idea that when a pack sequence flips it starts over at the end of a sheet is a theory. It's pretty expensive to break a full box to prove this to someone. It's only around $14k for a box.
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Old 10-08-2012, 03:59 PM   #24 (permalink)
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Are there any videos out there of people actually breaking the packs open and showing this sequence? You would think someone would have done this by now to help prove this theory. Would like to see that.
And instead of all of us proving to you that it is fact, why don't you prove to us that it is not a fact? If it concerns you that much you can do your own research and show us your argument.
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