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Old 10-15-2012, 11:00 PM   #26 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Wings View Post
Fake sales, Panini, and corrupt people. Ive been trying football cards and its been much more fun.
Heck, i've been looking into BASEBALL.......... hahaha

No one, yes, no one on planet earth enjoys collecting basketball cards more than me! But all this bs has made me think about trying out other things. I already have most the cards I want in my basketball collection, and wouldn't mind trying out HOF patch cards in baseball. I love baseball, but not as much as basketball though. Not sure yet, let's see what happens.
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Old 10-15-2012, 11:41 PM   #27 (permalink)
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Not Gradual, it is exponential. For years, the same red MJ PMG is $200 to $400 range. Since 2009, it jumps to what now? Look at Exquisite, it jumps to what now? Look at 90's insert. Look at jamabalaya for Penny hardawa, it used to be $150 in 2009. Now, it is $500. I really don't see "gradual" is the right term.
It is gradual. You are quoting a number from 2009 and it is almost 2013. It didn't go from $500-$10K or whatever they sell for now in a few months. It's taken several years. First it hit the $1000 mark. Then then $1500 mark, then the first time it hit $2K it was like the sky was falling and it went from there. How is something that has progressed for the last 3-4 years not gradual?

Plus, most of the naysayers here clearly haven't been paying attention. You guys all say, ZOMG 90's cards were so cheap in 2007. What gives? Why don't some of you take that tin foil hat off for a minute and think it through. What was going on in the hobby 5 years ago?

I'll answer it for you. Starting in 98, the love affair with fake game used pieces in cards began and lasted about a decade. Autographs took off really big a couple years later. Then Exquisite came a long and all the big money went there. Anything that wasn't numbered or had an auto or GU piece was given the same response time after time... "What? Not numbered? No Auto? No GU? Oh that crap's worthless. Never mind that the card may have had cutting edge technology that has never been duplicated or the fact that the card was insanely hard to get out of a pack whereas nowadays everything is a guaranteed hit and a one pack box.

That's why the all the big inserts from the 90's were cheaper to get a few years ago.

Before you knew it, GU were rotting away in $1 boxes unable to be sold, most autos became stickers that ran off the card, or placed upside down... most of the rare signers became over-populated... Nash, Kidd, Allen, Penny, Larry Johnson, now Grant hill... At one time any auto from those guys was a huge card, now they can be had in most cases for $20-$30.

With lack of innovation and most new cards becoming worthless not long after release people got tired of the status quo and looked for something new. At the exact same time, another phenomenon happened. I have talked to at least 10 guys who have the same story as me. We all got back into the hobby after our college hiatus and now that we all had jobs and money we could go back and buy the cards we could never afford before. Without even knowing what had been going on in the hobby, I started chasing some of the old MJ's that I could never afford as a little kid. I clearly wasn't the only person doing this.

The late 90's basketball market was huge during its day and it only quieted down for the aforementioned reasons. All the superficial things that people went after blew up as people got tired of worthless cards and the 90's came back again. Many people left the hobby in the early 2000's because of all the stupid crap the companies were spewing. But the fact that the 90's cards are getting the respect they deserve has brought some of the old collector's back.

The 90's spike is for real. It's not fake. Cards that are very hard to find, visually appealing, and are short-printed will never lose there luster. Keep in mind that many of the big chase sets are getting to be near 20 years old. When do these cards become vintage? Once all the players from the 90's sets are long gone, you will have many sets where 15 of the 20 players in the set are in the HOF. But of course that won't be worth anything because its nothing more then a fake market.

Now I already know what the 8 man tin foil crew is going to say. They are going to regurgitate the same crap they always do. They have typed it out so many times that I wouldn't be surprised if some of them have it on a word document and just copy and paste it whenever they feel necessary.

A group of 4 guys or whatever you guys have dreamed up did not manipulate a couple different cards to the point that it tipped over an entire market that has thousands of cards in it. The cards are valuable because they have stood the test of time.

As I said, I already know that it is going to be said that I must have spent thousands years ago and need to get my investment back but that's not true. One thing for sure is that there are many rational people that read this board and don't post because they know this board is run by 8 idiots... bu the rational around here are going to know that what I am saying is accurate.
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Old 10-15-2012, 11:46 PM   #28 (permalink)
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Thats a bit of a reach man. Comparing 50s cards to 90s cards is a totally different game.

If you dont think certain auctions have been manipulated, thats fine, but atleast compare apples to apples.

I bid on this card
KOBE BRYANT 97-98 ULTRA STARS GOLD PSA 10 VERY RARE INSERT CARD!!! | eBay

It sold for $1540.

It was relisted 2 days later and sold again for $1600.
KOBE BRYANT 97-98 ULTRA STARS GOLD PSA 10 | eBay

So what you are trying to tell me is that this card sold twice? Because the first auction was legit with a 0 feedback buyer and relisted in 2 days and sold?

Yep nothing fishy here! Its pretty legit
So what's your point? I can find any card from any year and probably show the same series of events. I could probably go into non-sports cards auctions and find the same thing. This doesn't mean that the entire market is manipulated because one guy might have done something shady.

It's like the people who say that all Muslims in the Middle East are bad when the reality is that the Middle East has 10's of millions Muslims and it's a less then a percent that are radicalized and ruining it for everyone.
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Old 10-15-2012, 11:47 PM   #29 (permalink)
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I was here in the hobby 5 years ago, and 10 years ago, 15 years ago, and 20 years ago! So I know exactly what happened.... I saw the games all along and would post about it whenever I found proof of people selling their own friends the same cards over and over and over again. That's how they were able to bring cards from 0 to 60 MPH in under 3 seconds!!!

Do you really think that for all these years we've just been going on forums and saying, "this was shilled"? lol... there was always proof! Of course that proof is looooong gone, so it's easy to sweep everything under the rug! But MANY people remember this, and followed it all along, so please don't tell us we weren't watching.
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Old 10-15-2012, 11:58 PM   #30 (permalink)
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panini's monopoly is the lynchpin that destroyed the bball hobby for the time being. While there is clearly a level of market manipulation that exists in todays market, there is also a clear massive jump in the value of older cards that has nothing to do with manipulation.

The facts are, with panini making such low quality cards, the demand is essentially non existent for 95% of what they produce. What this does is drive people to divert their money/demand to products from the past(or the occasional well made panini set such as the silhouettes). With the increase in demand and a shortening of supply, this forces the prices on past sets/ the few desirable current sets up considerably beyond their set points in a healthy market. Again this is not to say shilling does not exist in todays market, but the catalyst needed to make such shilling profitable exists because of what panini has done. There is no money going into newer cards, all of it is pouring into older sets which keeps driving the price higher. This in turn brings out the greed in some who attempt to take advantage of it through shilling. When topps and UD were around, while some past sets would maintain or increase in demand, there was enough demand and money going into new releases that would prevent what is happening today.

I can tell you with certainty, that I personally have yet to see a panini set beyond RAP's and silhouettes that I would rather spend my money on when pitted against a vast majority of older sets. I rather save my money and spend 1,000 dollars on a nice exquisite or older insert than bust any panini products, and this is coming from someone who is an admitted wax addict.
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Old 10-16-2012, 07:31 AM   #31 (permalink)
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So what's your point? I can find any card from any year and probably show the same series of events. I could probably go into non-sports cards auctions and find the same thing. This doesn't mean that the entire market is manipulated because one guy might have done something shady.

It's like the people who say that all Muslims in the Middle East are bad when the reality is that the Middle East has 10's of millions Muslims and it's a less then a percent that are radicalized and ruining it for everyone.
Im asking you straight up if you see a problem with that auction? Because you sure seem to always state that there is absolutely nothing fishy going on and that everything is legit. THen sometimes you teeter the line and point towards anomalies. Then you change your mind and go back to supporting that everything is legit.

Im asking you if the series of events I just showed you is legit? YES OR NO?
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Old 10-16-2012, 07:34 AM   #32 (permalink)
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you will need to find info around 1994-1996 era about the hobby going down the toilet.
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Old 10-16-2012, 07:55 AM   #33 (permalink)
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I have a few thoughts, some were already said, some not.

Ebay for me is a double edge sword. If it wasnt for ebay, I would have much less interest in the hobby overall since it is really the only place to find stuff. I probably would have just never got back into it to begin with.However it sucks because ebay is the wildwest. Im not one for all the conspiracys, but so many cards end early or sold then relisted..over and over. I hate selling on there because of how pro buyer it is. I feel if ebay allowed sellers to leave negs to buyers would eliminate much (not all) of the problems.

Panini sucks. Outside of Silouhettes and RAPs, I would not put my money towards them. And Im not just talking about Exquisite. For Durant and Rose rookie years, look at the quality of so many products (chronology, ud black, sp authentic, topps chrome). As collectors, I think thats all people really want is nice looking cards. Retro was a breath of fresh air to the hobby. I dont think it was something that anyone would say its better than the original, but its something different than the norm the last few years.

Also, I dont think you can compare 90s bball cards to vintage 50s baseball. However 90s hoops cards was the high point for many kids at the time. Nba was blowing up. Kids (including myself) idolized MJ and those awesome looking inserts but could never afford them. Now we can. Even with a few of the highest end ones being manipulated, there are thousands more that arent.
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Old 10-16-2012, 08:35 AM   #34 (permalink)
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Why are there 24 people on these boards always fighting about the Jordan "Shilled" Auctions? (Twelve on one side twelve on the other)

You would think by now they would have reached a "It is what it is" conclusion and let each other be?

Basketball cards are still fun in my opinion.
Panini = NT Awesome product imo and then a pile of mid end stuff.... totally certified was alott of fun. Kobe is a great chase auto with real good odds... I pulled my first Kobe auto this year and trust me the last thing I cared about was "oversaturation"

UD = The little company that could. Greats was nasty with a omnipresent shot at the Jordan auto. Retro was crazy and today EXQ takes back off.

Basketball cards are fine. Enjoy them. For f/ucks sakes.
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Old 10-16-2012, 09:25 AM   #35 (permalink)
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Why are there 24 people on these boards always fighting about the Jordan "Shilled" Auctions? (Twelve on one side twelve on the other)

You would think by now they would have reached a "It is what it is" conclusion and let each other be?

Basketball cards are still fun in my opinion.
Panini = NT Awesome product imo and then a pile of mid end stuff.... totally certified was alott of fun. Kobe is a great chase auto with real good odds... I pulled my first Kobe auto this year and trust me the last thing I cared about was "oversaturation"

UD = The little company that could. Greats was nasty with a omnipresent shot at the Jordan auto. Retro was crazy and today EXQ takes back off.

Basketball cards are fine. Enjoy them. For f/ucks sakes.
Because basketball is still has to mature. THe collectors in basketball are relatively young compared to baseball when it comes to history and tenure. That also comes with many being naive. IVe never seen such a mentality outside of the basketball collectors that basically tows a line advocating unethical activities so as long as it doesnt affect them. Its almost the same as saying its okay to commit criminal acts so as long as it doesnt ever affect me. Such a shame really. Exactly what does that teach the next generation of collectors/flippers? Thats its okay to cheat, steal and take advantage of people and that the smart ones will win and the naive ones will lose out? I certainly wouldnt want to bring the next generation of on the premise of a dog eat dog world eventhough it may seem like one.
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Old 10-16-2012, 09:32 AM   #36 (permalink)
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Basketball isn't dead but it's definitely not what is used to be. I've been collecting on/off for 20yrs and seen alot over this timeframe.

Ebay & online sales have helped/hurt the hobby. I used to have several LCS but over the years many have closed. Also, all the shilling on ebay now days is just annoying.

Box/Case prices have become absurd with basketball. You look at football or baseball and you have so many more options without spending an arm/leg. I know Panini plays a huge role in this for basketball since they are the official card company for the NBA. UD just seems to be focusing on whatever expensive products they can to make $$$.

Many others have stated several valid points as well.
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Old 10-16-2012, 10:29 AM   #37 (permalink)
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Because basketball is still has to mature. THe collectors in basketball are relatively young compared to baseball when it comes to history and tenure. That also comes with many being naive. IVe never seen such a mentality outside of the basketball collectors that basically tows a line advocating unethical activities so as long as it doesnt affect them. Its almost the same as saying its okay to commit criminal acts so as long as it doesnt ever affect me. Such a shame really. Exactly what does that teach the next generation of collectors/flippers? Thats its okay to cheat, steal and take advantage of people and that the smart ones will win and the naive ones will lose out? I certainly wouldnt want to bring the next generation of on the premise of a dog eat dog world eventhough it may seem like one.
No the hell it is not the same thing. Anyone with a brain knows these have been shilled stupid. "Well what about the guy that thinks he got a deal at 2k cause it usualky sells at 3k shilled price but its really a 300 dollar card?" That guy doesn't exist.... and if he does eff his life for not doing an ounce of research on a two thousand dollar purchase. Just a glance at google would be all it took... if anyone was that ...."naive"


Its not the same as promoting criminal activity. These Windolickers come here and say "Nuh-uh" and insist that its all on the up and up Nevermind that they've been caught over and over and over and over and its all just so tiring "Nuh-uh"

Its a waste of time to say that water is wet.... everyone knows and understands the situation.
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Old 10-16-2012, 10:35 AM   #38 (permalink)
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It is gradual. You are quoting a number from 2009 and it is almost 2013. It didn't go from $500-$10K or whatever they sell for now in a few months. It's taken several years. First it hit the $1000 mark. Then then $1500 mark, then the first time it hit $2K it was like the sky was falling and it went from there. How is something that has progressed for the last 3-4 years not gradual?
You are looking at shorter term. I am looking at 15 years period. You can't say it is gradual when the price was almost the same from 2000 to 2009. Even in the first half of 2009, there were not big jumps in rare cards. I don't follow deeply in MJ cards, but I do well in Penny Hardaway. His UD3 auto was $80 in 2000, $110 in 2009, than $220+ today. It took 10 years to increase $30 back in 2009, and now, it took 5 years to get $110 more.

If you look at Burbank, most of their rare cards are gone. Look up some posts in 2009 or early, people would open thread about how crazy their prices were. Sometimes, it was 10 times more than what the market prices. Now, I am sure their 2009 price tag is a "steal".

And I don't see how this discussion starts from basketball card hobby as a whole to a individual card pricing/90's card. The point here is not just talking the top players (MJ, kobe, lebron...), but also the hobby should have a place for lessor players. However, there is no place for those non-star players in this hobby. Not in card, not in discussion.
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Old 10-16-2012, 10:40 AM   #39 (permalink)
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No the hell it is not the same thing. Anyone with a brain knows these have been shilled stupid. "Well what about the guy that thinks he got a deal at 2k cause it usualky sells at 3k shilled price but its really a 300 dollar card?" That guy doesn't exist.... and if he does eff his life for not doing an ounce of research on a two thousand dollar purchase. Just a glance at google would be all it took... if anyone was that ...."naive"


Its not the same as promoting criminal activity. These Windolickers come here and say "Nuh-uh" and insist that its all on the up and up Nevermind that they've been caught over and over and over and over and its all just so tiring "Nuh-uh"

Its a waste of time to say that water is wet.... everyone knows and understands the situation.
So what are you suggesting? That we shut up and dont talk about it? That we just let it go on and if anyone new comes along and gets caught, than screw them?

THere are 2 types of people. People who want to help and bring awareness to the forefront and those who want sit back and watch others get duped and say "you are stupid". To each their own. But dont hate the guy that wants to help.

I think the tune would change if you were stung by it.
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Old 10-16-2012, 11:33 AM   #40 (permalink)
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I do agree with a lot of what has been said but I think that 1 major fact nobody is pointing out is the biggest reason for the decline in the hobby. As much as it pains me to say it Upper Deck ruined this hobby in 2003-04 by introducing Exquisite.

Yep I said it, Exquisite ruined the hobby. When the price of a pack of cards went from 5-10 bucks to 500-1000 bucks you cut out your biggest customer kids. You cant grow a hobby business without kids.

The dwindling droves of kids combined with the higher prices of the product became an opportunity to make a lot of money. With the opportunity to make a lot of money comes corruption.

Now some of you are reading this saying well there are plenty of deep pocketed collectors that will keep it going, tell that to Major League Baseball who stopped marketing to kids years ago, what happened to them? They are quickly becoming soccer/hockey. What happens when you leave the hobby? Do your kids collect? Mine don't & I don't want them to with the current state of the hobby & its cesspool of corruption.

Now look this hobby has always had its shady side, back when most of us were kids your LCS was the biggest crooks in the business but now that product is so high priced, more & more crooks entered the hobby.

Sad, very sad.
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Old 10-16-2012, 11:48 AM   #41 (permalink)
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I started to collect football way over basketball recently due to the stupid double rookie class and the lack of products released
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Old 10-16-2012, 12:08 PM   #42 (permalink)
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I do agree with a lot of what has been said but I think that 1 major fact nobody is pointing out is the biggest reason for the decline in the hobby. As much as it pains me to say it Upper Deck ruined this hobby in 2003-04 by introducing Exquisite.

Yep I said it, Exquisite ruined the hobby. When the price of a pack of cards went from 5-10 bucks to 500-1000 bucks you cut out your biggest customer kids. You cant grow a hobby business without kids.

The dwindling droves of kids combined with the higher prices of the product became an opportunity to make a lot of money. With the opportunity to make a lot of money comes corruption.

Now some of you are reading this saying well there are plenty of deep pocketed collectors that will keep it going, tell that to Major League Baseball who stopped marketing to kids years ago, what happened to them? They are quickly becoming soccer/hockey. What happens when you leave the hobby? Do your kids collect? Mine don't & I don't want them to with the current state of the hobby & its cesspool of corruption.

Now look this hobby has always had its shady side, back when most of us were kids your LCS was the biggest crooks in the business but now that product is so high priced, more & more crooks entered the hobby.

Sad, very sad.
I can only speak for myself on this but I feel there are many others who feel this way.

If it wasnt for exquisite or other high end innovative sets, I would not be in this hobby. Sets like exquisite, ud black, chronology are like little pieces of art. I look at the late 90s and early 2000 sets and see how much they lack. If the hobby was still mass produced, low end stuff, I cant imagine they would still be in business.

At the end of the day, there are still plenty of cheap low end options for kids to buy. However its the adults w jobs paying the card companies bills.
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Old 10-16-2012, 12:14 PM   #43 (permalink)
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I do agree with a lot of what has been said but I think that 1 major fact nobody is pointing out is the biggest reason for the decline in the hobby. As much as it pains me to say it Upper Deck ruined this hobby in 2003-04 by introducing Exquisite.

Yep I said it, Exquisite ruined the hobby. When the price of a pack of cards went from 5-10 bucks to 500-1000 bucks you cut out your biggest customer kids. You cant grow a hobby business without kids.

The dwindling droves of kids combined with the higher prices of the product became an opportunity to make a lot of money. With the opportunity to make a lot of money comes corruption.

Now some of you are reading this saying well there are plenty of deep pocketed collectors that will keep it going, tell that to Major League Baseball who stopped marketing to kids years ago, what happened to them? They are quickly becoming soccer/hockey. What happens when you leave the hobby? Do your kids collect? Mine don't & I don't want them to with the current state of the hobby & its cesspool of corruption.

Now look this hobby has always had its shady side, back when most of us were kids your LCS was the biggest crooks in the business but now that product is so high priced, more & more crooks entered the hobby.

Sad, very sad.
I totally agree with you. UD exquisite plunged this hobby world into a money making scheme. $500-$1k / pack. You think its marketed towards kids or money investors? No kid has that kind of bank to spend on a pack of cards period.

Exquisite was the marking in the industry that let it be known publically that sportcards were no longer childs play.. It now for rich adults. Like I said before its a "SOCIAL STATUS"
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Old 10-16-2012, 12:20 PM   #44 (permalink)
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I don't know, I see the hobby still generating hundreds of thousands on a yearly basis lol. So while some may have certain issues with it, it's still very much alive and well.
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Old 10-16-2012, 12:57 PM   #45 (permalink)
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So what are you suggesting? That we shut up and dont talk about it? That we just let it go on and if anyone new comes along and gets caught, than screw them?

THere are 2 types of people. People who want to help and bring awareness to the forefront and those who want sit back and watch others get duped and say "you are stupid". To each their own. But dont hate the guy that wants to help.

I think the tune would change if you were stung by it.
Fight the good fight. Don't hate you at all man, I think its nice that you care. From everything I have seen of you on these boards you are good people so please don't think I was trying to be rude or call you stupid for pointing it out.. (I reread my post and when I said "Shilled Stupid"as in shilled out of controlle it read like shilled, stupid like I was calling you stupid which is not at all the case)

Basketball cards are great.... after reading idk 100 threads about shillsville I decided to say my first and last piece one the subject.

No back to enjoying the hobby
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Old 10-16-2012, 01:07 PM   #46 (permalink)
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I also agree that Exquisite played a big part in crushing the basketball hobby. People want to complain about Panini and their high-priced products(which is also a factor, don't get me wrong), but Upper Deck started the trend with the 5 card/$500 products. From that, we get other products of the same structuring of few cards/triple digit, and now everyone is on the trend. People aren't going to complain about exquisite though, since they are the adults pouring big bucks into exquisite and supporting these products. This hobby was originally for kids, but then the big boys come in and start monetize the hobby, bringing it down in the process. Nothing will change either, as these high-dollar products will continue to sell out.
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Old 10-16-2012, 01:30 PM   #47 (permalink)
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Top 3 reasons why basketball/collecting/prices seem to have gone out of whack

1. Internet/ebay
2. influx of collectors turning into investors (more than any other sport)
3. Limited population made it easier to collude.


Basketball collectors are more "Social status" collectors. They yearn for attention and entitlement more so than any other sport. I do baseball now and have notice the stark differences. In baseball a collector will chase down a player and genuinley collect them out of interest. In basketball, you rarely get this. If the player isnt an all star, he isnt collected at all. In my opinion much of the basketball cards that see "action" are based on other peoples popularity
good break down.
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Old 10-16-2012, 01:47 PM   #48 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Orangejello727 View Post
Im asking you straight up if you see a problem with that auction? Because you sure seem to always state that there is absolutely nothing fishy going on and that everything is legit. THen sometimes you teeter the line and point towards anomalies. Then you change your mind and go back to supporting that everything is legit.

Im asking you if the series of events I just showed you is legit? YES OR NO?
I really don't care about that auction. It may be shilled. Go hang the guy if it bothers you so much. It looks shady that there are two 0 feedback bidders at the top but have you ever sold a card and had a non-paying bidder? I know I have.

Furthermore, anyone who thinks that a card sells at one price at open auction and then sells for more at fixed price must have been a shiller doesn't know anything about ebay. Cards at fixed price almost always sell for more then they do at open auction. That's just a fact. I had an ebay store for a while after another dealer I know convinced me it was the way to go. Cards that I would normally sell for $5+ shipping were being listed at $29.99 BIN/BO and sure enough quite a few cards were getting offers in the $10-$20 range. The reason being is when you have an obscure card of an obscure player you generally only have 1 person who really wants it. At open auction they have no one to fight with and can get the card at a cheap price but at fixed price you are able to focus in on that one person that really wants the card and will pay for it. So just because that Kobe sold for more at fixed price doesn't mean anything to me. In fact, if the card normally gets $1400 or whatever at open auction it will probably get more at fixed price.

In before the I don't get it clams.

Last edited by Clipperfan3; 10-16-2012 at 02:27 PM.
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Old 10-16-2012, 01:52 PM   #49 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by xavieronly1 View Post
You are looking at shorter term. I am looking at 15 years period. You can't say it is gradual when the price was almost the same from 2000 to 2009. Even in the first half of 2009, there were not big jumps in rare cards. I don't follow deeply in MJ cards, but I do well in Penny Hardaway. His UD3 auto was $80 in 2000, $110 in 2009, than $220+ today. It took 10 years to increase $30 back in 2009, and now, it took 5 years to get $110 more.

If you look at Burbank, most of their rare cards are gone. Look up some posts in 2009 or early, people would open thread about how crazy their prices were. Sometimes, it was 10 times more than what the market prices. Now, I am sure their 2009 price tag is a "steal".

And I don't see how this discussion starts from basketball card hobby as a whole to a individual card pricing/90's card. The point here is not just talking the top players (MJ, kobe, lebron...), but also the hobby should have a place for lessor players. However, there is no place for those non-star players in this hobby. Not in card, not in discussion.
You clearly didn't read my other post where I explained why 90's inserts and parallels were pretty much dead for a decade.

And shouldn't bring up Penny Hardaway to make my argument look bad. Penny Hardaway is the best argument for why MJ has gotten so expensive. Nobody wanted Penny cards after he got injuries and became irrelevant. But for some reason, many years after he hung it up all his fans have come back and are looking to spend big money on his cards the same way people have come back looking for old MJ's.

It's the same way that nobody wants TMac or Iverson right even those guys had crazy followings. I am sure in the future there will be a bunch of stupid arguments about how their auctions are shilled.

Last edited by Clipperfan3; 10-16-2012 at 01:57 PM.
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Old 10-16-2012, 02:19 PM   #50 (permalink)
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Fight the good fight. Don't hate you at all man, I think its nice that you care. From everything I have seen of you on these boards you are good people so please don't think I was trying to be rude or call you stupid for pointing it out.. (I reread my post and when I said "Shilled Stupid"as in shilled out of controlle it read like shilled, stupid like I was calling you stupid which is not at all the case)

Basketball cards are great.... after reading idk 100 threads about shillsville I decided to say my first and last piece one the subject.

No back to enjoying the hobby
No offense taken. I dont judge people on what they choose to do or not do. I judge that those who know they are doing wrong and deny it. Its basketball cards at the end of the day. Im not vested enough to care financially. But I am vested enough that its ruining what I consider my "Time well wasted' in my hobby of choice.
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