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Old 11-06-2012, 12:03 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Arrow I know BGS subgrades are weighted differently ... but...

I was looking over these I just got back, wouldn't at least ONE be a 9.5 given the subgrades?!





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Old 11-06-2012, 12:03 PM   #2 (permalink)
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I recently got cards like that too. MINT 9 when if you averages the grades it's like 9.375.
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Old 11-06-2012, 12:06 PM   #3 (permalink)
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The main grade will never be higher than the 2nd lowest subgrade
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Old 11-06-2012, 12:07 PM   #4 (permalink)
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The final grade is not the average of all 4 grades. If one grade is an 8.5, the highest possible grade will be a 9.
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Old 11-06-2012, 12:09 PM   #5 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PDawson21 View Post
The final grade is not the average of all 4 grades. If one grade is an 8.5, the highest possible grade will be a 9.
Actually no, there are 9.5s that are 10, 10, 10, 8.5, as long as the 8.5 is for surface.
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Old 11-06-2012, 12:10 PM   #6 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PDawson21 View Post
The final grade is not the average of all 4 grades. If one grade is an 8.5, the highest possible grade will be a 9.
Not quite true...if you have 3x 10's and an 8.5, you can still get a 9.5 Basically if one grade is more than a full point below the second lowest grade, you can get a full point increase over the lowest grade....otherwise the best you can do is .5 over the lowest grade.
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Old 11-06-2012, 12:11 PM   #7 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by burke23 View Post
Not quite true...if you have 3x 10's and an 8.5, you can still get a 9.5 Basically if one grade is more than a full point below the second lowest grade, you can get a full point increase over the lowest grade....otherwise the best you can do is .5 over the lowest grade.
Just on surface though?
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Old 11-06-2012, 12:12 PM   #8 (permalink)
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A card will only 9.5 if 3 subs are 9.5 or higher and only 1 sub of 9... so 10, 10, 9, 9 is still a 9..... 9.5, 9.5, 9.5, 9 is a 9.5
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Old 11-06-2012, 12:16 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Who are we kidding. We all know the bgs people just make stuff up! haha.
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Old 11-06-2012, 12:25 PM   #10 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PDawson21 View Post
Just on surface though?
No - doesn't matter what the 8.5 is...they don't weigh the different subs differently (ie more weight on surface vs edges)
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Old 11-06-2012, 12:27 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Who are we kidding. We all know the bgs people just make stuff up! haha.
sad but true. The grading scale has gotten so easy over the last 15 years its a joke now.
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Old 11-06-2012, 01:00 PM   #12 (permalink)
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The average of all 4 grades must add up to 9.5 or higher. In both case the average is 9.375. Its a 9 not a 9.5

I dont know about 8.5 subs and getting a 9.5 but Ive never seen a card with 2x10 and 1x8 before. Doesnt make sense to give a card a below par grade but average it out to a gem mint.
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Old 11-06-2012, 01:01 PM   #13 (permalink)
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Maybe they lost their dice and had to just wing it? Who knows with BGS?
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Old 11-06-2012, 01:06 PM   #14 (permalink)
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The corner subgrade is the toughest sub. The overall grade can be at most 0.5 higher than the corner sub.
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Old 11-06-2012, 01:12 PM   #15 (permalink)
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Copied from the BGS website:

The overall numerical grade is not a simple average of the four report card grades. Beckett Grading Services uses an algorithm which determines the final grade using the 4 sub grades on the front label of the card holder. The lowest overall grade is the first category to observe because it is the most obvious defect, and the lowest grade is the most heavily weighted in determining the overall grade.

Example:

Centering = 9.5
Corners = 9.5
Edges = 9
Surface = 8
Final grade = 8.5

The reason that this card received an 8.5 is that even though the Surface grade was an 8 (the lowest grade overall), the 9.5 grades on Centering and Corners were strong enough to bring it up a full point to reach the 8.5 level.

Another example:

Centering = 9.5
Corners = 9.5
Edges = 8.5
Surface = 9
Final grade = 9

Upon first glance, it may appear that this card should've received a grade different than a 9. The most this card could receive was .5 (or one-half grade) above the lowest sub-grade. The Edges were the lowest in this case, hence, the card received the overall 9 grade. Even though Centering and Corners received grades of 9.5, a key point to remember is that the minimum requirement to receive a grade of Gem Mint is to have at least three grades of 9.5 and the fourth to be no less than a 9.

Also, please note that the final grade rarely, if ever, exceeds two levels above the lowest of the four characteristic grades. For example, if a card has characteristic grades of Centering 10, Corners 6, Edges 10 and Surface 10, the final grade will be a "7" (of which is exactly two grading levels above the lowest characteristic grade).
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Old 11-06-2012, 01:20 PM   #16 (permalink)
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I also had some questions about exactly this yesterday, and just received this e-mail from their customer service:

"Thanks for the email. Any time your lowest sub-grade occurs twice (in this case you have 2 8.5’s) the overall grade becomes that grade. For example, if you have a card that is 9.5, 9, 7, 7 then the overall grade is a 7. If 1 of the 8.5’s were a 9 then the overall grade would have been a 9.

Thanks,
BGS"
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Old 11-06-2012, 01:28 PM   #17 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fullmetal View Post
For example, if a card has characteristic grades of Centering 10, Corners 6, Edges 10 and Surface 10, the final grade will be a "7" (of which is exactly two grading levels above the lowest characteristic grade).
Is that because the corner sub is far too low compared to the rest? For example, I've never seen centering 9.5 corner 7.5 edge 9.5 surface 9.5 gets a 8.5 overall.
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Old 11-06-2012, 02:49 PM   #18 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spinotron View Post
Is that because the corner sub is far too low compared to the rest? For example, I've never seen centering 9.5 corner 7.5 edge 9.5 surface 9.5 gets a 8.5 overall.
Corners aren't weighed differently than any other sub.
And it isn't true that to get a 9.5 you can't have a sub below 9. You can only get a 9.5 with an 8.5 if the other 3 subs are 10. Very rare to come by.
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Old 11-06-2012, 02:52 PM   #19 (permalink)
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Given a set of subgrades, you have to be able to find the overall grade without ambiguities.

I propose a method of determining the overall grade from the subgrades. You guys can check if it works from known examples. This rule doesn't punish corner harder than others.

We know the four subgrades and the overall grade must range between 1-10 with 0.5 increments.

Method:

You rank the four numbers from the subgrades in a decreasing order. The third subgrade will be the third number in that order, and the fourth subgrade will be the fourth number.

Rule 1: The overall grade must be greater than or equal to the fourth subgrade and it can be at most 1.0 higher than the fourth subgrade.

Rule 2: The overall subgrade must be less than or equal to the third subgrade; but it cannot be equal to the third subgrade if the fourth subgrade is 1.0 below or more.

Conclusion: This narrows down to at most 3 numbers as candidates for the overall subgrade in different scenarios. (3-number scenario happens when the third and fourth subgrades are 1.5 apart or more.) The overall grade will be the highest number.

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Last edited by spinotron; 11-06-2012 at 03:10 PM.
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Old 11-06-2012, 03:02 PM   #20 (permalink)
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In other words, rank four numbers from subgrades in a decreasing order:

when the 3rd number is equal to 4th number, the overall=3rd number;
when the 3rd number is equal to "4th number +0.5", the overall=3rd number;
when the 3rd number is equal to "4th number +1.0", the overall="4th number +0.5";
when the 3rd number is equal to "4th number +1.5" or more, the overall="4th number +1.0".

This is simpler to see and check.
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Old 11-06-2012, 03:11 PM   #21 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spinotron View Post
In other words, rank four numbers from subgrades in a decreasing order:

when the 3rd number is equal to 4th number, the overall=3rd number;
when the 3rd number is equal to "4th number +0.5", the overall=3rd number;
when the 3rd number is equal to "4th number +1.0", the overall="4th number +0.5";
when the 3rd number is equal to "4th number +1.5" or more, the overall="4th number +1.0".

This is simpler to see and check.
That is actually pretty much how it works to be honest. Just not quite sure at what point you can get a full point increase above the lowest - just know that you can. I think it might be that the other three have to be 1.5 points higher than the lowest as you put above.
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Old 11-06-2012, 03:20 PM   #22 (permalink)
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it is not an avg of the grades.. you can't have 2 9 subs and have a 9.5 even if it was
10 10 9 9 it would still be a 9
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Old 11-06-2012, 03:35 PM   #23 (permalink)
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I think above rule is not quite right. The corner seems to be more punished:





Need more examples like this to check. One needs to put some weighting into it like:

Everything stays the same, except:
3a) when the 3rd number is equal to "4th number +1.0" and 4th number is the corner, the overall="4th number +0.5";
3b) when the 3rd number is equal to "4th number +1.0" and 4th number is not the corner, the overall="4th number +1.0".

It's hard to say above for sure without more examples to check.
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Old 11-06-2012, 03:38 PM   #24 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spinotron View Post
I think above rule is not quite right. The corner seems to be more punished:





Need more examples like this to check. One needs to put some weighting into it like:

Everything stays the same, except:
3a) when the 3rd number is equal to "4th number +1.0" and 4th number is the corner, the overall="4th number +0.5";
3b) when the 3rd number is equal to "4th number +1.0" and 4th number is not the corner, the overall="4th number +1.0".

It's hard to say above for sure without more examples to check.
My honest guess with your images? They hosed up one of them (likely the bottom one unless the 3rd lowest sub factors in as well into the potential for a full point increase above the lowest sub).
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Old 11-06-2012, 03:44 PM   #25 (permalink)
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I personally never want to see a BGS 9.5 with any subs below a 9. If its even possible. Having any sub less than "mint" in my opinion throws the cards right off the Gem Mint grade.

I wish BGS would go to a full point system as the subs have made everything inbetween so subjective. The difference between a sub 9 vs 9.5 or 9.5 vs a 10 are basically the same as good day or bad day.
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