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Old 11-09-2012, 06:42 AM   #1 (permalink)
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Default My beef with Panini

My Beef with Panini
Let me start off by saying, I don’t dislike Panini just to dislike Panini. I don’t dislike them because they are not Upper Deck. I do not dislike them because they are not Topps. I do not dislike them because they have a monopoly. I dislike them for very specific reasons. These are those reasons.

Checklists
I understand why there are no Lebron or MJ, Dwight or Wade autos and I am OK with that. What I am not OK with is the lack of stars in their products. Yeah they show up here and there, but not when they need to. Carmelo, Rose, Chris Paul, Westbrook, Blake, Durant, Deron, Harden, and endless mid-level guys are all available, but only randomly show up. Take a look at the highly popular Silhouettes. I was a huge fan of these, with the nice clean area for on card signatures and a huge window for jerseys or patches. The part that I hated was the numbering. For the prime versions, Durant was /5, Rose /5, Kareem /5, Kobe /25, CP3 /10 (in a Hornets jersey, after they already released him in a Clippers uni, but that is a different story). Finally Panini made a nice looking card and made the stars so limited that the majority of collectors didn’t stand a chance of getting them. The Prime version should have been consistent at /25 or even /50. Even the numbering on the above average looking jersey version was all over the place. These should have been consistent at /99. Now Kobe was /99, but the other main exclusive, Durant was /10. There is no excuse his print runs should have not been higher for an exclusive (not as high as the 2,000 autos of Kobe released in Gold Standard). Sticking with the Silhouettes, instead of making the numbering consistent and a checklist jam packed of legends people actually want, consumers get stuck with retired players like Dan Issel, Michael Cage, and Kiki Vandeweghe. You are telling me you couldn’t get Jerry West for a product like this? Mr Clutch signs for everything. Even instead of getting current players that have some value like Deron, Harden, or Westbrook, consumers get Cole Aldridge and Ekpe Udoh. My own gut feeling is Panini is too cheap to pay players that people want.

Redemptions
I personally don’t have a big problem with their system for the sole reason of I do not bust their products….ever. But from what I hear, it sucks. I remember Upper Deck doing this back in the early 90s with Shaq rookies. I thought it was a pretty cool idea at the time. Now you hear about Panini taking forever to fill their orders, losing orders, and keeping chase cards to fill orders. For the record, I know other companies had their faults on this one, too. The whole rookie redemptions for the 2011 and 2012 for me is an absurd idea. If there is anyone who thinks it is going to run smoothly is out of their mind.

Stickers and trying to figure out what cards are high end
I don’t have a problem with stickers. I really don’t. I do have a problem when they are in their highest end product. If I was in charge of Panini, I would keep it simple. I would release about 6 products a year. I would kick it off with Hoops, which really is a nice looking low-end product for kids. Have a few sticker autos per box and everyone is happy. With every product released, slowly make more on card autos and increase quality of design. Line up the release date of your best product, which will probably be National Treasures, with the NBA Finals when there is the most hype, not a few months after. Can you imagine people chasing Durants and Kobes if they are in the finals? That is just good for business. Try to keep 4 or 5 products every year so customers can get used to some name recognition. Introduce one or two new products every year. I get the feeling Panini randomly puts out products, not considering if the quality lines up with the sticker price. One thing for certain though, Tracy Hackler will be saying it’s the best thing since sliced bread.
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Old 11-09-2012, 06:58 AM   #2 (permalink)
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Many valid points! A few I don't agree with, well, I do agree with, but I don't think Panini has a choice in!

Credit to you for actually taking the time to clearly describe what the issues you have are, instead of just saying UD>Panini or something else that isn't constructive.

Perhaps some well thought out emails like this should get sent to Panini. I think it is clear now (Prizm) that they are starting to hear some of our voices!
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Old 11-09-2012, 07:09 AM   #3 (permalink)
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Many valid points! A few I don't agree with, well, I do agree with, but I don't think Panini has a choice in!

Credit to you for actually taking the time to clearly describe what the issues you have are, instead of just saying UD>Panini or something else that isn't constructive.

Perhaps some well thought out emails like this should get sent to Panini. I think it is clear now (Prizm) that they are starting to hear some of our voices!
2 autographs for $100 is hearing your voice? Im just not as excited about paying $100 a box for a Panini product because it reminds me of Chrome.
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Old 11-09-2012, 07:15 AM   #4 (permalink)
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2 autographs for $100 is hearing your voice? Im just not as excited about paying $100 a box for a Panini product because it reminds me of Chrome.
If you are only interested in the 2 cards that have signatures on them, then why would you buy a box that has 20 packs of 6 cards?

I have seen dozens of people asking for designs like chrome to be done again, so yeah, this is hearing a voice!
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Old 11-09-2012, 07:24 AM   #5 (permalink)
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If you are only interested in the 2 cards that have signatures on them, then why would you buy a box that has 20 packs of 6 cards?

I have seen dozens of people asking for designs like chrome to be done again, so yeah, this is hearing a voice!
A new design could be a good thing. But doesnt price point matter? I also have great concern with the fact none of the rookies in Panini products seem to sell or have a following. UD had MANY such as Sp Authentic, SPX and others. What product other than National Treasures do collectors chase the rookies in? I dont see Prizm being any different. I hope I am wrong.
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Old 11-09-2012, 07:49 AM   #6 (permalink)
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A new design could be a good thing. But doesnt price point matter? I also have great concern with the fact none of the rookies in Panini products seem to sell or have a following. UD had MANY such as Sp Authentic, SPX and others. What product other than National Treasures do collectors chase the rookies in? I dont see Prizm being any different. I hope I am wrong.
You're right! If course price point matters. I just think there needs to be something done to get people to appreciate the other 118 cards in the box as well as the 2 autos!
I think Prizm is aiming to have 4 hits per box: 2 autos and 2 'Prizms' so they are trying to push the value of inserts again, seeing as no one cares about standard jersey cards anymore.
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Old 11-09-2012, 09:34 AM   #7 (permalink)
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A new design could be a good thing. But doesnt price point matter? I also have great concern with the fact none of the rookies in Panini products seem to sell or have a following. UD had MANY such as Sp Authentic, SPX and others. What product other than National Treasures do collectors chase the rookies in? I dont see Prizm being any different. I hope I am wrong.
This is actually another one of my concerns. NT RAPs are great looking. However its the only collectable RC for the most part which drives up prices to crazy amounts for players that shouldnt command the prices they get.

Think back to 08-09. You had topps chrome, ud black, exquisite, and in my opinion, the best looking card from that year, sp authentic. Now its NT and a whole bunch of other stuff.
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Old 11-09-2012, 10:47 AM   #8 (permalink)
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You might one to add one more point...this is coming for sure to basketball (if it hasn't already)...

Auto redemption not being fulfilled!!!

Many redemption cards from top end product (NT) in football come back with no auto on them... NICE right??? No replacement, they will send you back the actual card stamped "No Autograph"!!!

Imagine paying a few hundred $$$ for auto redemption and get back no auto...
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Old 11-09-2012, 10:55 AM   #9 (permalink)
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I think that Panini has some good ideas, they just can't execute them for anything. The Elusive set in P&P was genius, but extremely over valued. The Elusive set should have been an addition, not a center piece. $100 for LaBradford Smith and Bob Love autos? Pass.
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Old 11-09-2012, 11:27 AM   #10 (permalink)
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The problem with limiting their releases to 6 products is they pay to be the exclusive card company for the NBA. The more products you release, the more money you make. They have to release a lot of products to make enough money to cover the NBA fee and turn a profit. They could definitely put more time into the design as well and I do think they took a big step forward with the Prizm set.

But all of your other points I agree with.
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Old 11-09-2012, 11:52 AM   #11 (permalink)
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Maybe Thats why Panini keeps on moving back the release dates so instead of redemptions
we actually get the signed cards!
Honestly I would prefer to get an on card auto than a sticker!
I think they have Listen to us and started to fix this issues.
I believe that as time goes by we would be rewarded with a world class cards!
Only time will tell. But I do have Faith that Panini would do so much better as time goes by, for the improvements, the Prizm Looks really promising.
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Old 11-09-2012, 11:56 AM   #12 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by wegoingsizzler View Post
You might one to add one more point...this is coming for sure to basketball (if it hasn't already)...

Auto redemption not being fulfilled!!!

Many redemption cards from top end product (NT) in football come back with no auto on them... NICE right??? No replacement, they will send you back the actual card stamped "No Autograph"!!!

Imagine paying a few hundred $$$ for auto redemption and get back no auto...
False

They always send you a replacement PLUS the "No Autograph" card, which sometime sells on eBay to a set collector or specific player collector.
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Old 11-09-2012, 12:21 PM   #13 (permalink)
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To go along with SPauthentic; one issue that you kind of address is the need to limit products and work more on others. I agree, I think Panini is constantly releasing the same products, there isn't much difference in quality from Hoops, Prestige, or Threads. Why make cards that are basically the same; plus they are releasing the same autographs across all three products.

Put more time into design, and eliminate unnecessary/unsuccessful designs. Hoops is a proven favorite among collectors, but Prestige/Threads have run their course, time to eliminate them. Same can also be said for Limited and GS, there is little difference from one year to the next, if you don't want to improve or change designs then it is time to create something new. I as a collector, don't want the same card from year to year.
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Old 11-09-2012, 01:01 PM   #14 (permalink)
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Maybe Thats why Panini keeps on moving back the release dates so instead of redemptions
we actually get the signed cards!
Honestly I would prefer to get an on card auto than a sticker!
I think they have Listen to us and started to fix this issues.
I believe that as time goes by we would be rewarded with a world class cards!
Only time will tell. But I do have Faith that Panini would do so much better as time goes by, for the improvements, the Prizm Looks really promising.
I really do like your positivity...

But these problems have been going on for a few years now.
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Old 11-09-2012, 01:05 PM   #15 (permalink)
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Redemptions
I personally don’t have a big problem with their system for the sole reason of I do not bust their products….ever. But from what I hear, it sucks. I remember Upper Deck doing this back in the early 90s with Shaq rookies. I thought it was a pretty cool idea at the time. Now you hear about Panini taking forever to fill their orders, losing orders, and keeping chase cards to fill orders. For the record, I know other companies had their faults on this one, too. The whole rookie redemptions for the 2011 and 2012 for me is an absurd idea. If there is anyone who thinks it is going to run smoothly is out of their mind.
Great points you make Joe. Thanks for sharing. One of my main problems with Panini is their redemption program like you said. It is flat out terrible, at least from my experience. I sent in two redemptions back in December of 2010 got one of them back a year and half later! The other redemption was never made so I requested a replacement via online message which they replied to. I still haven't received that replacement. I don't understand why they couldn't have just mailed the replacement with the other redemption.

I also have a Kobe Bryant autograph redemption card that I put in back in August. I am worried about that one as well. As in when will I receive it. I don't work for Panini so I don't know what goes on behind closed doors there. That being said, I just don't see how hard it could be to fulfill redemption cards in a much faster way then they currently do. It's just plain awful.
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Old 11-09-2012, 01:11 PM   #16 (permalink)
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I really do like your positivity...

But these problems have been going on for a few years now.
Thanks!
I was collecting basketball cards back on the 90's then stop collecting as the century turned.
So we just restarted collecting cards again and enjoying it so much.
That I was not aware with this has been going on as a problem.
Hopefully it does gets address and resolve. I think it will be.
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Old 11-09-2012, 01:39 PM   #17 (permalink)
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dear pinoymamba, nice to see u support panini so much

perhaps when u r free, go check out their Facebook (donruss page) which their official customer service page

there should be enough horror stories there to last a week

best one, a solid gold card not being made when its stated its in their vault. haha. what a joke
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Old 11-09-2012, 01:46 PM   #18 (permalink)
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dear pinoymamba, nice to see u support panini so much

perhaps when u r free, go check out their Facebook (donruss page) which their official customer service page

there should be enough horror stories there to last a week

best one, a solid gold card not being made when its stated its in their vault. haha. what a joke
I still Do!
I guess we , I mean my son and I started collecting that we never had an issue of this...
I'm very hopeful that it does get resolve. Especially they are the lone rights to the Nba! and we do love and enjoy the cards and the game so much.
This will get better, I hope, I think it will.
They have a blog! and Tracy Hackler is so easy to talk to. Maybe this should be placed into his attention. So that it will be resolve ASAP...
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Old 11-09-2012, 01:47 PM   #19 (permalink)
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I have a pending redemption from 2011 Elite, Montana/Brady dual auto...I called requested a replacement 3 times. Talked to 2 different ladies. Still got nothing.

I just requested that the replacements be basketball, they said they would have to send a few cards to make up the value. I was fine with that. I started calling in August it is now November and they have the option to replace the redemption with ANY CARDS THEY WANT. Still nothing.
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Old 11-09-2012, 01:54 PM   #20 (permalink)
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never mind
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Old 11-09-2012, 02:01 PM   #21 (permalink)
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I have a pending redemption from 2011 Elite, Montana/Brady dual auto...I called requested a replacement 3 times. Talked to 2 different ladies. Still got nothing.

I just requested that the replacements be basketball, they said they would have to send a few cards to make up the value. I was fine with that. I started calling in August it is now November and they have the option to replace the redemption with ANY CARDS THEY WANT. Still nothing.
Yeah man that sucks. I know how you feel. It's terrible customer service and it seems like they really don't care.
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Old 11-09-2012, 04:33 PM   #22 (permalink)
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REDEMPTIONS
I can't believe people are complaining about Panini on the time it takes to receive their actual cards when the other companies take the same long periods of time. Rather, their issue is the amount of different players with redemption in almost every one of their products.

If Panini is going to give us a large checklist with all kinds of different players, they will need to do a better job in getting those guys to sign in advance of the product. And to bring it a step further, Panini needs to do a better job with the superstar autographs and not having them to be redemptions.

Like Delonte West said to then Rookie JJ Hickson while with the Cavs in his Jim Rome spot, "Planes, Trains, Automobiles..You better have my DOOOOnuts!!!!" We need to make them accountable for not doing what it takes to get those autographs from the players. We can't allow them to just say 'its the player's fault'.

CHECKLISTS
I see your points about the players on their checklists and that is fine. Panini (in football especially) bleeds you with countless rookie stuff in almost every product. The Vet/Retired players are not abundant. In Basketball, it is a little different as there is not a large group of rookies to draw from. Instead, they replace those lack of rookies with mid-tier active/retired players. The numbering complaint is whatever. There are pros and cons of keeping the desired limited or abundant. I think Panini is cheap on things but they do give you more inserts, numbered, jersey, autos in their products compared to other companies especially when you consider price point. My main complaint with them is that almost every product in football for 2012 and 2011 had a Relic/Auto as the base rookie card for all the players at the rookie premiere. I think at this point in time, the RC premiere plain jerseys on cards add no real value to the cards. The only thing that adds value and desire are the patches. (Note I am speaking of Game Used stuff, just the RP stuff).

RANGE of PRODUCT OFFERINGS
I think this is more with Football than with Basketball so far at least. This year Basketball may join the show with too many product offerings. However, since they are the sole company with the license, they are supplying the demand for product offerings in basketball. A company like UD which when they had a license had wide variety of products too, keeps their product lines to a miminum to keep demand for their stuff higher. Panini has no such need because they have that license. What Panini is struggling with is card design. I can't exactly pinpoint it but maybe it has to do with having a relic/auto for every rookie in every product. I think if they limited that use, they could be more creative with card designs for the rc autos. For example, I love the RC PHENOM Patch auto design. However, why do you need to use the same exact template for Totally certified? Totally Certified to me with the striking colors could have easily not had any jerseys on the base rookie designs and still had a beautiful card.

We all have our issues with every card company, but they are in it to make money. If we are buying their stuff, they will continue to sell it. Just how it is.

Last edited by dwest13cavs; 11-09-2012 at 04:36 PM.
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Old 11-09-2012, 04:55 PM   #23 (permalink)
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Delonte west?

Thats the point...I want to give them my money, but refuse to buy their stuff under the current conditions
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Old 11-09-2012, 05:33 PM   #24 (permalink)
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Good thing nobodies forced to buy their garbage!
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Old 11-09-2012, 08:15 PM   #25 (permalink)
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Good thing nobodies forced to buy their garbage!
yeah its still up to us whether we pick it up or not,
but as i read there are so many complains about the redemptions!
I really do hope that this issue will be resolve!
Good luck and I wish for the best to everyone!

Hopefully the Panini prizm that is about top come out will not have any redemptions on them.
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