Kobe = Best Laker Ever?

[Orangejello727]

Originally Posted by jeff152380

It all depends how you measure the greatest.... I personally think magic Johnson is best laker ever.... He made more of an impact on the court when Kobe makes more of an impact on the box score..... Kobe teammates from past and present don't have a lot of great things to say about playing with him....just about talented he is..... On the other hand all lakers who played with magic loved him and are full of compliments of how great of a teammate he was........

Many of MJs team mates claim MJ was the biggest arse to them. He would demand them to be traded to treating them like dirt. But that doesnt take away from his accomplishments.

If this was a "whos the nicest Laker of all time", you would have a case with that argument. Unfortunately thats not the subject.

Its clear Magic himself claims Kobe to be the best laker of all time. So does Shaq and Jerry West. Are you going to tell me their choice dont count? and if they dont count, who would be better choice of making that decision on best laker of all time?

[1eyed_jack]

Originally Posted by Orangejello727

Many of MJs team mates claim MJ was the biggest arse to them. He would demand them to be traded to treating them like dirt. But that doesnt take away from his accomplishments.

If this was a "whos the nicest Laker of all time", you would have a case with that argument. Unfortunately thats not the subject.

Its clear Magic himself claims Kobe to be the best laker of all time. So does Shaq and Jerry West. Are you going to tell me their choice dont count? and if they dont count, who would be better choice of making that decision on best laker of all time?

but that's the double standard

Jordan treats his teammates like crap and "he's such a competitive player, always demanding the best!"

Kobe does the same and "he's such a bad teammate and leader"

[jeff152380]

Magic claiming Kobe is the best laker all time is the exact reason why he is the greatest...... Kobe would never call magic the greatest....Magic is the most unselfish player the lakers/nba has every seen....... Jordan has nothing to do with it...... Shaq has never said anything intelligent in his life and Jerry west was forgotten because of magic......Magic made a bigger impact on the court and best ever in my opinion

[1eyed_jack]

Originally Posted by jeff152380

Magic claiming Kobe is the best laker all time is the exact reason why he is the greatest...... Kobe would never call magic the greatest....Magic is the most unselfish player the lakers/nba has every seen....... Jordan has nothing to do with it...... Shaq has never said anything intelligent in his life and Jerry west was forgotten because of magic......Magic made a bigger impact on the court and best ever in my opinion

yeah ok man

[jeff152380]

Better question is how old are the people claiming Kobe is best ever..... Would explain a lot..

[1eyed_jack]

Originally Posted by jeff152380

Better question is how old are the people claiming Kobe is best ever..... Would explain a lot..

I for one think Jordan is better, but I think Kobe is the best Laker of all time.

How old are you?

[Orangejello727]

Originally Posted by jeff152380

Better question is how old are the people claiming Kobe is best ever..... Would explain a lot..

Old enough to watch Magic play in his prime and Kobe through out his career.

Fortunately for me, im not stuck in the late 80s and understand how the dynamics of the game has changed.

Age has nothing to do with rationalizing who is the best. You werent around to watch Wilt or West play yet you write them off pretty quick.

[pac213up]

I take Magic over Kobe. Magic could contribute at a high level across multiple positions and also could dominate a game without scoring. Just a more versatile player. Still have nightmares over that sky hook.

[Craig]

As much as I dislike Kobe, he has spent a great chunk of his career not being given proper recognition for his accomplishments. Jerry West is my all-time favorite Laker, and Magic was fun to watch, but I'd say the race is really between Kobe and Kareem. Both could score, both performed consistently for long periods of time, and both could defend (unlike Magic). Wilt Chamberlain was a great player, but by the time he came to L.A. his best years were behind him.

As to where Kobe fits on the all-time list of NBA greats, that's a tough question because there's so much subjectivity. I'd personally say top-10, with his final positioning there still to be determined. I still like Jordan, Wilt and Russell in my top three, but with Kobe and Lebron around it's tough to say how things might shake out 10 years from now.

[Tarheelsfan2012]

I'll go
1. Magic
2. Kareem
3. Jerry West

Wilts not here because for over half of his career he was in Philly and from reading Bill Simmons Book of Basketball Wilt sounded like a Douche. Kobe is good but not convinced he had a bigger impact on the game than the top 3 I listed. He wouldnt have won the first three titles if Shaq wasnt there because lets be honest, during those years Shaq bullied and dominated people.

[thepinoymamba]

Originally Posted by bdoody42

Without Wilt in top 5 or 6 no list is legit..

The way wilt dominated was an era where even a regular center would also dominate.
Not that he is among the greats but by the way if he plays now. He would not be as dominated as he was on his era. Wilt amongst the top 15.

[bdoody42]

Originally Posted by thepinoymamba

The way wilt dominated was an era where even a regular center would also dominate.
Not that he is among the greats but by the way if he plays now. He would not be as dominated as he was on his era. Wilt amongst the top 15.

So you're saying an average center like in the NBA in like Marcin Gortat or even an above average center like Marc Gasol would have done what Wilt did?

That's a false statement. You obviously are estimating Wilts dominance.

[Orangejello727]

Originally Posted by Tarheelsfan2012

I'll go
1. Magic
2. Kareem
3. Jerry West

Wilts not here because for over half of his career he was in Philly and from reading Bill Simmons Book of Basketball Wilt sounded like a Douche. Kobe is good but not convinced he had a bigger impact on the game than the top 3 I listed. He wouldnt have won the first three titles if Shaq wasnt there because lets be honest, during those years Shaq bullied and dominated people.

What does another play have to do with rings? The argument that if someone wasn't there plays equally for every player

Without pippen, mj wins 0 titles
Without Kobe, Shaquille wins no titles in la
Without "insert team mate here" player doesn't win a title

Lets be honest here , NO player wins a titles if you take any player away from a winning team

[1eyed_jack]

Originally Posted by bdoody42

So you're saying an average center like in the NBA in like Marcin Gortat or even an above average center like Marc Gasol would have done what Wilt did?

That's a false statement. You obviously are estimating Wilts dominance.

He still said Wilt is a top 15 player, so it's not like he's saying he was average.

I think he just means that Wilt's main advantage was the era he played in, and while he had a lot of talent and skill, he was just so much bigger than everyone that he was able to put up ridiculous numbers, numbers that he wouldn't come close to reaching if he played today

[Orangejello727]

Originally Posted by bdoody42

So you're saying an average center like in the NBA in like Marcin Gortat or even an above average center like Marc Gasol would have done what Wilt did?

That's a false statement. You obviously are estimating Wilts dominance.

Now you understand why it's hard to compare players out of era

I'm willing to bet a cp3 type player .... If put in the 60s with today's athleticism would run circles around everyone. In that same aspect if cp3 played in the 60s he would be sitting on the "ir" because of the beating he took in his first game

[Tarheelsfan2012]

Originally Posted by Orangejello727

What does another play have to do with rings? The argument that if someone wasn't there plays equally for every player

Without pippen, mj wins 0 titles
Without Kobe, Shaquille wins no titles in la
Without "insert team mate here" player doesn't win a title

Lets be honest here , NO player wins a titles if you take any player away from a winning team

The point by it is Kobe wasnt the go to guy. Jordan was the man every single time he took the court. Kobe was Robin while Shaq was Batman on the first three championships.

[bdoody42]

Originally Posted by 1eyed_jack

He still said Wilt is a top 15 player, so it's not like he's saying he was average.

I think he just means that Wilt's main advantage was the era he played in, and while he had a lot of talent and skill, he was just so much bigger than everyone that he was able to put up ridiculous numbers, numbers that he wouldn't come close to reaching if he played today

He said an average center would do the same thing? Is Wilt an average Center? Obvious answer is no.

[Orangejello727]

Originally Posted by Tarheelsfan2012

The point by it is Kobe wasnt the go to guy. Jordan was the man every single time he took the court. Kobe was Robin while Shaq was Batman on the first three championships.

Thats because he was still young and the franchise player at the time was Shaq. Of course Shaq was the #1 option. Thats not kobes fault. How do you blame kobe for being young in in that situation.

Its no fault of kobe that there was a seasoned vetran in his prime in front of him. In Mjs case, he was the go to guy because everyone his on team came after him.

[bdoody42]

Originally Posted by Orangejello727

Thats because he was still young and the franchise player at the time was Shaq. Of course Shaq was the #1 option. Thats not kobes fault. How do you blame kobe for being young in in that situation.

Its no fault of kobe that there was a seasoned vetran in his prime in front of him. In Mjs case, he was the go to guy because everyone his on team came after him.

It's not his fault. It's just what happened so you can't change it. Just have to decide based on things that happened.

[Orangejello727]

Originally Posted by bdoody42

It's not his fault. It's just what happened so you can't change it. Just have to decide based on things that happened.

Thats fine. Without Kobe, those 3 championships would never have been won !!

I cant believe the argument has changed to, kobe not being the #1 option because he was still young. I wonder why MJ didnt win any championships in his first 5 yrs in the league if he is so good. How come SHaq never won a ring till Kobe came to the team?

[bdoody42]

Originally Posted by Orangejello727

Thats fine. Without Kobe, those 3 championships would never have been won !!

The same thing can be said for probably all the starters and that is correct. The disagreement began when you called Kobe the GOAT.

[Orangejello727]

Originally Posted by bdoody42

The same thing can be said for probably all the starters and that is correct. The disagreement began when you called Kobe the GOAT.

Then take it out of the equation because that type of factor must be used for all players, not just kobe. Its a point that cant be made unless used for everyone. So why use it against kobe but no one else?

If you want to compare #1 options then atleast look at kobe when he was the #1 option and go to guy instead of focussing on when he wasnt. When we talk about MJ, Magic and who ever else, we tend to focus on their great years, not their rookie seasons and years they didnt win. So why not do the same for kobe?

[Craig]

Originally Posted by Orangejello727

Lets be honest here , NO player wins a titles if you take any player away from a winning team

This is one of the best statements I've read in this thread, and it's something that tends to get lost in the discussion.

So many people want to say Kobe only won this first titles because of Shaq, or that he couldn't win again until he had Gasol et al to help the second time around. But if that's to be held against him, then can someone tell me the last team to win a title with only one star player on the team? The '80s Celtics and Lakers, through to Jordan/Pippen, Wade/Lebron, Olajuwon/Drexler...it's a lengthy list. I don't understand how having Shaq to help win titles is held against Kobe.

[bdoody42]

Originally Posted by Craig

This is one of the best statements I've read in this thread, and it's something that tends to get lost in the discussion.

So many people want to say Kobe only won this first titles because of Shaq, or that he couldn't win again until he had Gasol et al to help the second time around. But if that's to be held against him, then can someone tell me the last team to win a title with only one star player on the team? The '80s Celtics and Lakers, through to Jordan/Pippen, Wade/Lebron, Olajuwon/Drexler...it's a lengthy list. I don't understand how having Shaq to help win titles is held against Kobe.

I don't see how it is being held against him. We recognize that he was important to those titles, but he wasn't the main option. That's all I am saying.

[murrke03]

Originally Posted by Orangejello727

Thats fine. Without Kobe, those 3 championships would never have been won !!

I cant believe the argument has changed to, kobe not being the #1 option because he was still young. I wonder why MJ didnt win any championships in his first 5 yrs in the league if he is so good. How come SHaq never won a ring till Kobe came to the team?

You can't equate Kobe's rings while being the 2nd guy with those when he was 'the man'.

Jordan was the man for ALL his titles. Kobe was not. And that needs to be factored in.