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Old 12-07-2012, 01:43 PM   #101 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by hermanotarjeta View Post
without two lucky SINGLE shots in the playoffs, Kobe has 2 less rings.

All the Kobe defenders are all too young to remember bird, magic, dr. J, and even Jordan.
And a lot of the Bird, Magic, Dr. J people are too stuck in their day to give credit to newer players who are better
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Old 12-07-2012, 01:43 PM   #102 (permalink)
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but that same argument could be made on Jordan right?

He had the refs on his side, he had hall of fame teammates and a hall of fame coach
One lucky shot by Horry. If he missed, Lakers don't go to the finals.

One lucky shot by Fisher. If he missed, Lakers don't go to the finals.

I can't recall a single bulls player shot outside of Jordan that saved them from playoff elimination.
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Old 12-07-2012, 01:44 PM   #103 (permalink)
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if memory serves me correcty, kobe was the second option for his first 3 titles. then he attempted to be first option on the team while shaq was still there, they started losing, and shaq was pretty much forced off the team because he was complaining that he wasnt the go to guy and thats why they were losing. and kobe being younger and the future for the lakers, they booted shaq. what a bad move, shaq still had a few good years left in him. if the team chemistry would have been able to stay together, they would have a few more titles imo.
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Old 12-07-2012, 01:45 PM   #104 (permalink)
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Miami has been in the finals with Lebron, Wade and Bosh. Dont forget the third tandem!!

Lakers have been struggling because guys like Pau and Bynum were not dependable in my opinion.
They were fine the two years they won and Bynum has his best season last year.
So in regards to Bynum I disagree. With Gasol I think he has dropped off some, but during the two championships he was a very strong second option.

No player can win alone that's for sure. Dirk and the Mavericks and back in 04 I think when the Pistons won is basically they only two times a team with one star won the title in the last ten years. Every player has needed help in history.
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Old 12-07-2012, 01:45 PM   #105 (permalink)
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Every team needs a second option, but under no circumstance was Jordan ever viewed as a second option as Kobe clearly was his first three championships.
This was the post you made. You said Kobe clearly was the 2nd option in his first 3 championship? First 3 he was a freshman in the league.

I asked how you can compare a 2nd option kobe (96,97,98) to a MJ in (91,92,93)???

If you want to compare Kobe in his last 2 rings to MJ and his prime rings, sure, Ill compare the two. In both cases they were #1 options!!
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Old 12-07-2012, 01:46 PM   #106 (permalink)
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One lucky shot by Horry. If he missed, Lakers don't go to the finals.

One lucky shot by Fisher. If he missed, Lakers don't go to the finals.

I can't recall a single bulls player shot outside of Jordan that saved them from playoff elimination.
to win the finals at many points in the season it comes down to a fortunate bounce or a lucky shot. The Lakers came at the last second, but that's not to say the Bulls never had those breaks. Maybe they came with 2 minutes left in a game instead of 2 seconds, but every team that wins tends to get those breaks
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Old 12-07-2012, 01:48 PM   #107 (permalink)
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without two lucky SINGLE shots in the playoffs, Kobe has 2 less rings.

All the Kobe defenders are all too young to remember bird, magic, dr. J, and even Jordan.
Just like all the MJ idolizers are too young to remember Kareem, Wilt and Rusell. Or too old to understand Kobe, Lebron and Durant!!
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Old 12-07-2012, 01:49 PM   #108 (permalink)
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This was the post you made. You said Kobe clearly was the 2nd option in his first 3 championship? First 3 he was a freshman in the league.

I asked how you can compare a 2nd option kobe (96,97,98) to a MJ in (91,92,93)???

If you want to compare Kobe in his last 2 rings to MJ and his prime rings, sure, Ill compare the two. In both cases they were #1 options!!
We are debating the years the teams won titles. Kobe didn't win titles in 96,97 or 98.... How is the revelant? He won titles in 00,01,02..... I don't think he can be a "freshmen" for three years in the NBA. Lol. I believe it is called a rookie.

Seems like a failed post.
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Old 12-07-2012, 01:50 PM   #109 (permalink)
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if memory serves me correcty, kobe was the second option for his first 3 titles. then he attempted to be first option on the team while shaq was still there, they started losing, and shaq was pretty much forced off the team because he was complaining that he wasnt the go to guy and thats why they were losing. and kobe being younger and the future for the lakers, they booted shaq. what a bad move, shaq still had a few good years left in him. if the team chemistry would have been able to stay together, they would have a few more titles imo.
Shaqs problems were always with Buss. Not with kobe!! If they stayed together without butting heads as to whos team it was (Both kobe and Shaq are ego maniacs just like every top franchise player except CP3 lol), Im willing to bet they would have surpassed the 6 ring bulls run
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Old 12-07-2012, 01:52 PM   #110 (permalink)
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We are debating the years the teams won titles. Kobe didn't win titles in 96,97 or 98.... How is the revelant? He won titles in 00,01,02..... I don't think he can be a "freshmen" for three years in the NBA. Lol. I believe it is called a rookie.

Seems like a failed post.
Ok, So a rookie who was benched his first 2 yrs? Comparing that to a MJ in his prime? Still dont get it.

Why dont you compare when they were #1 options. Its not kobes fault he was young and Shaq was the go to guy. How do you fault Kobe for that? Talk about pressing the situation by digging!!
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Old 12-07-2012, 01:53 PM   #111 (permalink)
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Shaq left and carried the rings with him, it just shows who was the main man. If Shaq remained on the lakers, who knows how many rings they would have won.
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Old 12-07-2012, 01:54 PM   #112 (permalink)
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How many times has Lebron gone the distance without Wade by his side?
Lol who won MVP?
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Old 12-07-2012, 01:56 PM   #113 (permalink)
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Ok, So a rookie who was benched his first 2 yrs? Comparing that to a MJ in his prime? Still dont get it.

Why dont you compare when they were #1 options. Its not kobes fault he was young and Shaq was the go to guy. How do you fault Kobe for that? Talk about pressing the situation by digging!!
Hey buddy I just replied to your post. He was not benched the first two years. Like many players he didn't start as a stud.
I don't see how I am digging.... You're making things up lol.
He wasn't the first option because he wasn't good enough at that time. That's what it comes down to. Obviously Phil Jackson is a pretty good coach and he felt Shaq was the number one option and that obviously worked for those three championships. Whyndonyou want to compare Kobe's two championships when he was a number one option? He did it twice while Jordan did it six times. Seems like you're starting to make an argument against yourself.
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Old 12-07-2012, 02:00 PM   #114 (permalink)
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How can a guy that had to ride the coat tails of one of the most dominate ever be the goat?

And Tristan can you post a link to that website comparing Lebron and Kobe stats? I can't find it.
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Old 12-07-2012, 02:01 PM   #115 (permalink)
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Lol who won MVP?
How many times has wade won without Haslem? Lol.
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Old 12-07-2012, 02:02 PM   #116 (permalink)
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How can a guy that had to ride the coat tails of one of the most dominate ever be the goat?

And Tristan can you post a link to that website comparing Lebron and Kobe stats? I can't find it.
The only problem in arguing Lebrons greatness is that the sample size isn't big enough yet. Also the team accomplishments need to continue.
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Old 12-07-2012, 02:13 PM   #117 (permalink)
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http://blitzsportsnetwork.com/2012/0...dated-in-2012/

Not sure whats going on with the site now though seems slow
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Old 12-07-2012, 02:20 PM   #118 (permalink)
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Hey buddy I just replied to your post. He was not benched the first two years. Like many players he didn't start as a stud.
I don't see how I am digging.... You're making things up lol.
He wasn't the first option because he wasn't good enough at that time. That's what it comes down to. Obviously Phil Jackson is a pretty good coach and he felt Shaq was the number one option and that obviously worked for those three championships. Whyndonyou want to compare Kobe's two championships when he was a number one option? He did it twice while Jordan did it six times. Seems like you're starting to make an argument against yourself.
Because you are selectively choosing to compare a situation where MJ had the advantage. How is that any of Kobes fault that he didnt start and had to wait to be the #1 option? MJ won nothing in his first 7 yrs in the league. Its like me trying to ask you how come it took MJ 7 yrs and wait till Pippen came to win a ring? I dont fault MJ for not winning in his early years with the Bulls. Why do you fault Kobe for being traded to a team early in his career that had Shaq as the #1 option? Its meaningless.

I dont play the what if game by asking what could have happend if Shaq wasnt there. Just like I dont play the game by wondering if MJ would have won more if Pippen had come to his team earlier. There is no substance in it at all. In order to compare apples to apples, you have to weigh the factors as well. You cant just cherry pick years that fit your theory.

Basketball, legendary status and recognition is not a race. Its determined of the career of a player. Its the journey and path. Nothing to do with "in these years" or "being 2nd option" because someone with more experience and tenue is front of you. I would assume if MJ came into the league with a team mate of the caliber of Shaq on his team, he would have taken a back seat to a franchise player on the team as well. So throw out that scenario altogether.

The facts are clear. These two players have close enough stats to be compared. If you wish to add any subjective criterias into the equations, by all means go ahead. Just treat them as opinions and not what ifs and cherry picks lines.
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Old 12-07-2012, 02:22 PM   #119 (permalink)
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How can a guy that had to ride the coat tails of one of the most dominate ever be the goat?

And Tristan can you post a link to that website comparing Lebron and Kobe stats? I can't find it.
Its pretty simple when you take a players over all career accomplishment into factor. Are you suggesting that Kobe was riding the coat tail of Shaq when he won 2 more rings without him? lol
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Old 12-07-2012, 02:29 PM   #120 (permalink)
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Because you are selectively choosing to compare a situation where MJ had the advantage. How is that any of Kobes fault that he didnt start and had to wait to be the #1 option? MJ won nothing in his first 7 yrs in the league. Its like me trying to ask you how come it took MJ 7 yrs and wait till Pippen came to win a ring? I dont fault MJ for not winning in his early years with the Bulls. Why do you fault Kobe for being traded to a team early in his career that had Shaq as the #1 option? Its meaningless.

I dont play the what if game by asking what could have happend if Shaq wasnt there. Just like I dont play the game by wondering if MJ would have won more if Pippen had come to his team earlier. There is no substance in it at all. In order to compare apples to apples, you have to weigh the factors as well. You cant just cherry pick years that fit your theory.

Basketball, legendary status and recognition is not a race. Its determined of the career of a player. Its the journey and path. Nothing to do with "in these years" or "being 2nd option" because someone with more experience and tenue is front of you. I would assume if MJ came into the league with a team mate of the caliber of Shaq on his team, he would have taken a back seat to a franchise player on the team as well. So throw out that scenario altogether.

The facts are clear. These two players have close enough stats to be compared. If you wish to add any subjective criterias into the equations, by all means go ahead. Just treat them as opinions and not what ifs and cherry picks lines.
You're right they can be compared and will be until the end of time, but the thing your wrong about is that Kobe did choose to go into the NBA after high school and not attend college. If he had went to college he would have probably been a star from day one in the NBA.
It was his fault he was traded. He demanded it. LOL.

You're just choosing which aspects of recognition to use to help your argument.
Stats say that Steve Nash shot a higher percentage than Steve Nash for his career from the field. Does that mean Shaq was a better shooter? You're smart enough to answer that.

You're ignoring all the awards Jordan has received, which crushes Kobe. Seems odd to ignore these things that are used to judge players .

I treat opinions like I see them. If I feel they are legit I wouldn't argue. Like most experts I think that you're debating something you have no chance of winning at this point unless you're with a dumb of Kobe and laker lovers.

Don't just use the "stats" argument but ignore the opinions of experts, other great players, and other factors that come into play.
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Old 12-07-2012, 02:30 PM   #121 (permalink)
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Its pretty simple when you take a players over all career accomplishment into factor. Are you suggesting that Kobe was riding the coat tail of Shaq when he won 2 more rings without him? lol
Here are two honest questions. Please answer honestly.
1. How old are you?
2. Who in your mind is the best player right now in the NBA?
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Old 12-07-2012, 02:38 PM   #122 (permalink)
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The facts are clear. These two players have close enough stats to be compared. If you wish to add any subjective criterias into the equations, by all means go ahead. Just treat them as opinions and not what ifs and cherry picks lines.
Not really all that close IMO at least. Jordan avg more pts more efficiently, more rebounds, more assists, more steals, ect - and that is before the bulk of Kobe's decline years will be factored in. Also Jordan put up better offensive numbers in an era where defenders were allowed to defend with hand checks, which obviously had affected guard play tremendously.
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Old 12-07-2012, 02:41 PM   #123 (permalink)
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Exactly but the bias of some people is pretty bad and they won't admit when there opinion is obvious one that doesn't hold much merit.

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Not really all that close IMO at least. Jordan avg more pts more efficiently, more rebounds, more assists, more steals, ect - and that is before the bulk of Kobe's decline years will be factored in. Also Jordan put up better offensive numbers in an era where defenders were allowed to defend with hand checks, which obviously had affected guard play tremendously.
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Old 12-07-2012, 02:44 PM   #124 (permalink)
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Here are the stats.......

Michael Jordan Stats - ESPN

Kobe Bryant Stats - Los Angeles Lakers - ESPN
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Old 12-07-2012, 02:47 PM   #125 (permalink)
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Here are two honest questions. Please answer honestly.
1. How old are you?
2. Who in your mind is the best player right now in the NBA?

Why does age matter? Ill tell you that I watch Magic, Bird, MJ, Kobe all in their primes.

2. Right now? Lebron technically. But then again im comparing an old season vet in Kobe to a beast of a Lebron that is still young and prime!!
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