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Old 12-07-2012, 03:47 PM   #126 (permalink)
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All you have to do ask Jordan.....he says that Bryant is the closest player
To be the greatest of all time (top 5) And i believe that too
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Old 12-07-2012, 03:48 PM   #127 (permalink)
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Player Comparison Finder | Basketball-Reference.com
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Old 12-07-2012, 03:49 PM   #128 (permalink)
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Not really all that close IMO at least. Jordan avg more pts more efficiently, more rebounds, more assists, more steals, ect - and that is before the bulk of Kobe's decline years will be factored in. Also Jordan put up better offensive numbers in an era where defenders were allowed to defend with hand checks, which obviously had affected guard play tremendously.
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Exactly but the bias of some people is pretty bad and they won't admit when there opinion is obvious one that doesn't hold much merit.
Ok, Let me get this straight.. You are telling me that who ever averages better Pts, Rebounds, steals and assists shoud determine the GOAT?

Give me all the attributes a player must be #1 in to achieve GOAT?
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Old 12-07-2012, 03:53 PM   #129 (permalink)
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Ok, Let me get this straight.. You are telling me that who ever averages better Pts, Rebounds, steals and assists shoud determine the GOAT?
Not completely. I made no determination of who was the GOAT. I was responding to you saying the stats are close enough. I looked at the stats....they are not that close. Jordan has MUCH better stats, especially given the other points I made. How you or anyone else wants to factor that together with winning, rings, intangibles, ect to determine who is the GOAT is up to you.
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Old 12-07-2012, 03:54 PM   #130 (permalink)
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Ok, Let me get this straight.. You are telling me that who ever averages better Pts, Rebounds, steals and assists shoud determine the GOAT?

Give me all the attributes a player must be #1 in to achieve GOAT?
You said stats and numbers can't be argued.... That's why I brought it up. Seems like every time someone brings something against you to change your argument.

I said before its a combination of championships, the role you play on those championships, statistics, expert opinions, player opinions and I am sure I forgot something else.

Give me your reasons to why Kobe is Bette than Jordan. Please use facts.

So I will ask again.
1. How old are you?
2. Wo do you think is the best player right now in the NBA?
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Old 12-07-2012, 03:55 PM   #131 (permalink)
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You're right they can be compared and will be until the end of time, but the thing your wrong about is that Kobe did choose to go into the NBA after high school and not attend college. If he had went to college he would have probably been a star from day one in the NBA.
It was his fault he was traded. He demanded it. LOL.

You're just choosing which aspects of recognition to use to help your argument.
Stats say that Steve Nash shot a higher percentage than Steve Nash for his career from the field. Does that mean Shaq was a better shooter? You're smart enough to answer that.

You're ignoring all the awards Jordan has received, which crushes Kobe. Seems odd to ignore these things that are used to judge players .

I treat opinions like I see them. If I feel they are legit I wouldn't argue. Like most experts I think that you're debating something you have no chance of winning at this point unless you're with a dumb of Kobe and laker lovers.

Don't just use the "stats" argument but ignore the opinions of experts, other great players, and other factors that come into play.
Hey man, If you want to stack awards up to to determine the GOAT of all time, I agree MJ beats Kobe. But then other players beat MJ.

lets not ignore awards..

Who has the most (over a career)
MVPs?
All star games?
Scoring titles?
Championship rings?
Best average of pts, ast, reb

Keeping in mind that the player determines various ones while others are determined by a vote!!!
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Old 12-07-2012, 03:55 PM   #132 (permalink)
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Excuse me me you did tell kinda answer my questions. Lol
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Old 12-07-2012, 03:57 PM   #133 (permalink)
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Hey man, If you want to stack awards up to to determine the GOAT of all time, I agree MJ beats Kobe. But then other players beat MJ.

lets not ignore awards..

Who has the most (over a career)
MVPs?
All star games?
Scoring titles?
Championship rings?
Best average of pts, ast, reb

Keeping in mind that the player determines various ones while others are determined by a vote!!!
Thanks for making my case. Just wish you could be unbiased and realize what that your opinion doesn't hold much merit.
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Old 12-07-2012, 04:01 PM   #134 (permalink)
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You said stats and numbers can't be argued.... That's why I brought it up. Seems like every time someone brings something against you to change your argument.

I said before its a combination of championships, the role you play on those championships, statistics, expert opinions, player opinions and I am sure I forgot something else.

Give me your reasons to why Kobe is Bette than Jordan. Please use facts.

So I will ask again.
1. How old are you?
2. Wo do you think is the best player right now in the NBA?

I didnt change anything.

Base it on stats and MJ was never #1 on any list. He isnt #1 on pts, mvps, rings, ASG, whatever else you want. Just like Kobe isnt. Yet you knock kobe for it but give MJ the pass for not being #1 in a catagory?

All those combinations you stated above are subjective matters. Its a matter of opinion on who "Led a team", "Tried harder", "Showed more effort", "Expert Opinion". Exactly what my first post in this thread said. After you set aside all the compariables the rest is all upto an opinion to determine your GOAT.

There is no determining the GOAT without opinions.

To answer your question truthfully, By hard facts and stats, Kobe does not beat MJ. Just as MJ does not beat other players by the same facts and stats. This is the whole argument on determining a player of GOAT out of era, different playing standards and competition along with circumstances makes it impossible. Its only left up to a subjective opinioni there after. ...Recycle back to the first post I made!!
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Old 12-07-2012, 04:02 PM   #135 (permalink)
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Thanks for making my case. Just wish you could be unbiased and realize what that your opinion doesn't hold much merit.
And yours does? Thats MJ is the GOAT because he is #1 in all those catagories? LOL
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Old 12-07-2012, 04:20 PM   #136 (permalink)
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And yours does? Thats MJ is the GOAT because he is #1 in all those catagories? LOL
When comparing modern day players Count FINALS MVPs, end of story.

Even though Bill Russell would probably have more, he's not in this discussion hehe
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Old 12-07-2012, 04:31 PM   #137 (permalink)
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I havent got this on hand but anyone have the rankings for:

#1 ranked in the following criterias..

Most MVPs
Most Finals MVP (Just for Tristan)
Most pts scored
Most ASG
Most Championship rings
Most Scoring Titles?
Best Career AVG

Anything else I should be adding to the hard fact list to determine GOAT time award wise?
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Old 12-07-2012, 04:37 PM   #138 (permalink)
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And yours does? Thats MJ is the GOAT because he is #1 in all those catagories? LOL
I argued the Kobe isn't the greatest of all time and took Jordan as an example of someone who is obviously ahead of him. I never made an argument for who I think is the best. This thread started as a Kobe is the best ever thread.
Your opinion of saying Kobe worked harder or was more dedicated than anyone else is laughable. How do you prove this? Did you watch every player workout in the summer? How do you judge this? This is your bias in a player.

Jordan doesn't lead in every category. There are many different types of players who will lead in different categories. I choose Kobe and Jordan because they a the close in playing style and position.

When 95% of the world disagrees with something it usually means something is wrong.
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Old 12-07-2012, 04:38 PM   #139 (permalink)
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And yours does? Thats MJ is the GOAT because he is #1 in all those catagories? LOL
I am not bias toward Jordan as I said before. All my favorite players are Celtics such as Bird,Pierce, and Rondo. Obviously I would not debate them for best player ever.
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Old 12-07-2012, 04:38 PM   #140 (permalink)
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I havent got this on hand but anyone have the rankings for:

#1 ranked in the following criterias..

Most MVPs
Most Finals MVP (Just for Tristan)
Most pts scored
Most ASG
Most Championship rings
Most Scoring Titles?
Best Career AVG

Anything else I should be adding to the hard fact list to determine GOAT time award wise?
Eliminating bias
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Old 12-07-2012, 04:40 PM   #141 (permalink)
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Eliminating bias
But you yourself said awards count. So lets rank them based on awards and see who tops out at #1
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Old 12-07-2012, 04:45 PM   #142 (permalink)
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But you yourself said awards count. So lets rank them based on awards and see who tops out at #1
I said they matter I didn't say they were everything. In a previous post I mentioned the following things matter. Stats, championships, the roles players played on those championship, expert opinions, and player opinions.

Don't try to change what I write. It makes you appear as if your narrow minded.
I believe that the only thing Kobe passes Jordan on that list that you posted above was all star games and they maybe very close. I don't have that stat on hand.
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Old 12-07-2012, 04:56 PM   #143 (permalink)
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Magic Johnson led the Lakers to 9 NBA Finals and won 5 championships.

Kobe Bryant played in 7 NBA Finals and won 5 championships.

I'd take Magic's career over Kobe's and, in a vacuum (i.e. ignoring teammates, situation, etc), I'd take Magic over Kobe. He had made his teammates better, no matter who they were. Kobe is phenomenal, but he's no Magic Johnson.

Kareem's best years came in Milwaukee while Wilt's best years were in Philadelphia/San Francisco, so I actually think Jerry West and Elgin Baylor are the 3rd and 4th best Lakers ever when you look at each players entire Lakers career.

If we're counting Minneapolis, then I'd rank Mikan right up there too.
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Old 12-07-2012, 04:58 PM   #144 (permalink)
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Oh so, subjective opinions matter. Like role players, Expert Opinions and player opinions? Its not all about stats and hardware?

So why do you discount Kobe as GOAT because he doesnt have as much hardware as MJ?

I know exaclty what you are doing. You are discrediting Kobe because he doesnt have enough. But if that same principle were to be applied to MJ, it only matters but isnt everything? Theres the double standard I was talking about right from the beginning.

THis is the jist of the thread...

If MJ is #1 in any catagory, it must count towards GOAT
If MJ is not #1 in any catagry, you must take it with a grain of salt.

But this does apply "Equally" by standards to all other players.

Honestly, we have circled right back to my first post. Its a matter of opinion!!
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Old 12-07-2012, 04:58 PM   #145 (permalink)
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Didn't Shaq always score more than Kobe when they played together?
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Old 12-07-2012, 05:00 PM   #146 (permalink)
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Didn't Shaq always score more than Kobe when they played together?
He sure did! When you are the #1 option and the franchise player at the time, it tends to happen!!
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Old 12-07-2012, 05:11 PM   #147 (permalink)
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Oh so, subjective opinions matter. Like role players, Expert Opinions and player opinions? Its not all about stats and hardware?

So why do you discount Kobe as GOAT because he doesnt have as much hardware as MJ?

I know exaclty what you are doing. You are discrediting Kobe because he doesnt have enough. But if that same principle were to be applied to MJ, it only matters but isnt everything? Theres the double standard I was talking about right from the beginning.

THis is the jist of the thread...

If MJ is #1 in any catagory, it must count towards GOAT
If MJ is not #1 in any catagry, you must take it with a grain of salt.

But this does apply "Equally" by standards to all other players.

Honestly, we have circled right back to my first post. Its a matter of opinion!!
You can't make an argument because yours is just your opinion without any backing basically. You're rights its an opinion and one basically any non laker and Kobe lover disagrees with.
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Old 12-07-2012, 05:12 PM   #148 (permalink)
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Magic is the best Laker ever IMO
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Old 12-07-2012, 05:20 PM   #149 (permalink)
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Magic is the best Laker ever IMO
It's is really close between Kobe and Magic. It comes down to if you like a guy who scores, or do you like a guy who passes and brings out the best in his teammates.
Kareem and Wilt weren't always and did some of there work on other teams. Especially Wilt.

I wonder how we would view West and Baylor if more people would have seen them play live.
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Old 12-07-2012, 05:30 PM   #150 (permalink)
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I wonder how we would view West and Baylor if more people would have seen them play live.
Spend hours and hours and hours reading about them and researching every video clip of their game that you can possibly get your hands on.

That's what I do
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