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Old 12-07-2012, 04:34 PM   #151 (permalink)
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My dad watched Wilt and Jordan play and he still says Wilt it the GOAT.

Kobe will probably be top 5, but not THE GOAT.
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Old 12-07-2012, 04:37 PM   #152 (permalink)
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Kobe 5 rings in 17 years
Magic 5 rings in 13 years

Magic probably would have had many more rings if he didn't retire.

Fact is, Kobe shoots less, Lakers win. Its a no brainer.
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Old 12-07-2012, 04:38 PM   #153 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by blastman View Post
My dad watched Wilt and Jordan play and he still says Wilt it the GOAT.

Kobe will probably be top 5, but not THE GOAT.
This was my whole point he right around number 5, but orangejello refuses to accept that he is anything less than the best
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Old 12-07-2012, 04:39 PM   #154 (permalink)
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I was born in 1981, and I'm sure some of the people on this forum are way younger than me... yet they still have the opinions about how Bill Russell or Wilt or Oscar were the best players ever. Or in this hypethical, how Kareem or Jerry West or Magic were.

I saw Magic and Kareem play live although I was much younger and I have seen more basketball highlights and documentaries than I believe is healthy and I can safely say that Kobe Bryant is the best Laker I have ever seen.

I'll go one step further and say besides Jordan (also saw him live numerous times and I'm a Knick fan so I knew him too well) Kobe is the best player I've ever seen.

I don't really like Kobe, he's cocky and standoffish to the media. He's been in some usual off court drama... but when he is on the court, he gives it his all. He's a court leader, he can get his own shot off, he can dominate a game offensively and do a great job defensively. He's not as good at getting to the hole as Jordan was but he has a better jumper, better at the line, better 3s and still has a killer instinct nobody in the league has.

Furthermore, he has 5 rings for those who feel you must have rings to be in the discussion, same Magic, same as Kareem. He'll likely pass Kareem if he feels like it similar to the way Karl Malone could've, he scored 81 points in a game, has all the individual accolades etc.

Bottom line is when Jordan played people said he wans't the best ever, it was Magic and Bird or Kareem and Wilt. Now its pretty much a consensus that its Jordan. After Kobe is gone from the game, people will put him in his rightful place, likable or not its #2.
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Old 12-07-2012, 04:40 PM   #155 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by tristan20 View Post
Kobe 5 rings in 17 years
Magic 5 rings in 13 years

Magic probably would have had many more rings if he didn't retire.

Fact is, Kobe shoots less, Lakers win. Its a no brainer.
Those teams were much stronger all around than LA was with Kobe in the mid 90s... Magic came into a team that won the title his rookie year.
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Old 12-07-2012, 04:41 PM   #156 (permalink)
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I never saw Kareem, never saw Magic, never really saw Jordan.
I was born in 92' so I didn't really get to see Jordan's prime.
Only thing I can base it off on is stats.
I saw Kobe's whole career pretty much and really, it is amazing to watch such a great player. Some of us take it for granted, he is 34 and still playing at a high level.

Is he the GOAT Laker? idk, I think it is between Magic and Kobe. Magic has been saying Kobe is the GOAT Laker for a couple seasons now... But who knows, Kobe's career isn't over, judging from this season he might still have 2-3 more seasons in him after this one. He can still win titles, I doubt he will win a season MVP with Lebron and Durant playing. But titles is all I care, I just want the Lakers to pass the Celtics lol
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Old 12-07-2012, 04:42 PM   #157 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blastman View Post
My dad watched Wilt and Jordan play and he still says Wilt it the GOAT.

Kobe will probably be top 5, but not THE GOAT.
I agree.

A select few players can claim to be the best ever with good reason:

- Bill Russell: Most rings
- Kareem Abdul-Jabbar: Most career points, most MVPs
- Michael Jordan: Highest career PPG, most Finals MVPs, highest MVP share
- Wilt Chamberlain: Highest single-season and single-game PPG and RPG

Kobe Bryant? Not so much.

The top 4 is set in stone, in my opinion (in no particular order): Russell, Wilt, Kareem and Jordan.

After that, I'd take Magic and Bird.

Then it's hard to separate Shaq, Duncan, Kobe and Robertson.
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Old 12-07-2012, 04:43 PM   #158 (permalink)
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Those teams were much stronger all around than LA was with Kobe in the mid 90s... Magic came into a team that won the title his rookie year.
Selected by the Los Angeles Lakers with the No. 1 overall pick in the 1979 NBA Draft, Johnson quickly became one of the best point guards in the league. The former Michigan State star averaged 18 points, 7.7 rebounds, and 7.3 assists per game.

Filling in for the injured Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Johnson posted 42 points, 15 rebounds, and 7 assists in Game 6 of the 1980 NBA Finals as the Lakers defeated the Philadelphia 76ers for the title. Magic was named Finals MVP.
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Old 12-07-2012, 04:44 PM   #159 (permalink)
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Bottom line is when Jordan played people said he wans't the best ever, it was Magic and Bird or Kareem and Wilt.
That's simply not true.

I am the same age as you and I vividly recall Jordan being generally regarded as the greatest of all time during his playing career.

Meanwhile, I have plenty of books (literally a library full of basketball books), many of them written before Jordan's 1998 retirement, which clearly regard him as the greatest ever.
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Old 12-07-2012, 04:46 PM   #160 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by tristan20 View Post
Kobe 5 rings in 17 years
Magic 5 rings in 13 years

Magic probably would have had many more rings if he didn't retire.

Fact is, Kobe shoots less, Lakers win. Its a no brainer.
Grant Hill could have been a GOAT IF he didn't get injured

Jordan could have had more titles IF he didn't retire early

The Lakers could have won in 2008 IF Bynum was healthy

Kobe would have had more MVP's IF Nash Suns didn't have good records.

Lebron would have more titles right now IF he would have played better in '07 and 11'

Wade would have no titles IF he didn't get to the FT line 15-17 times a game

Shaq and Kobe would have had more titles IF they got along.
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Old 12-07-2012, 04:47 PM   #161 (permalink)
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Seems like OP opinions is in the extremely small minority. He claims he is the GOAT and some people can't even say he is the GOAT of the lakers. Lol
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Old 12-07-2012, 04:48 PM   #162 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by MikeMamba View Post
Grant Hill could have been a GOAT IF he didn't get injured

Jordan could have had more titles IF he didn't retire early

The Lakers could have won in 2008 IF Bynum was healthy

Kobe would have had more MVP's IF Nash Suns didn't have good records.

Lebron would have more titles right now IF he would have played better in '07 and 11'

Wade would have no titles IF he didn't get to the FT line 15-17 times a game

Shaq and Kobe would have had more titles IF they got along.
You're missing Tristan's point; Magic has the same number of championships as Kobe despite playing less seasons. No 'ifs' or 'buts'. It's as simple as that. Magic did the same as Kobe but in less years.
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Old 12-07-2012, 04:49 PM   #163 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeMamba View Post
Grant Hill could have been a GOAT IF he didn't get injured

Jordan could have had more titles IF he didn't retire early

The Lakers could have won in 2008 IF Bynum was healthy

Kobe would have had more MVP's IF Nash Suns didn't have good records.

Lebron would have more titles right now IF he would have played better in '07 and 11'

Wade would have no titles IF he didn't get to the FT line 15-17 times a game

Shaq and Kobe would have had more titles IF they got along.
The bias continues from Kobe fans. They don't see the world as it actually is
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Old 12-07-2012, 04:53 PM   #164 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by WillC View Post
You're missing Tristan's point; Magic has the same number of championships as Kobe despite playing less seasons. No 'ifs' or 'buts'. It's as simple as that. Magic did the same as Kobe but in less years.
He was 31-32 when he retired. The NBA was entering the Jordan era, if it wasn't for HIV he would have continued to play for another 4-6 seasons. I highly doubt he would have won a title in the Jordan era. The Lakers did not have the pieces, who knows what could have happened regarding trades or whatever but it was Jordan's decade.
So IF Magic did not have HIV, he would have as many seasons as Kobe with the same amount of titles.
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Old 12-07-2012, 04:54 PM   #165 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by MikeMamba View Post
He was 31-32 when he retired. The NBA was entering the Jordan era, if it wasn't for HIV he would have continued to play for another 4-6 seasons. I highly doubt he would have won a title in the Jordan era. The Lakers did not have the pieces, who knows what could have happened regarding trades or whatever but it was Jordan's decade.
So IF Magic did not have HIV, he would have as many seasons as Kobe with the same amount of titles.
Grant Hill could have been a GOAT IF he didn't get injured

Jordan could have had more titles IF he didn't retire early

The Lakers could have won in 2008 IF Bynum was healthy

Kobe would have had more MVP's IF Nash Suns didn't have good records.

Lebron would have more titles right now IF he would have played better in '07 and 11'

Wade would have no titles IF he didn't get to the FT line 15-17 times a game

Shaq and Kobe would have had more titles IF they got along.

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Old 12-07-2012, 04:59 PM   #166 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WillC View Post
Grant Hill could have been a GOAT IF he didn't get injured

Jordan could have had more titles IF he didn't retire early

The Lakers could have won in 2008 IF Bynum was healthy

Kobe would have had more MVP's IF Nash Suns didn't have good records.

Lebron would have more titles right now IF he would have played better in '07 and 11'

Wade would have no titles IF he didn't get to the FT line 15-17 times a game

Shaq and Kobe would have had more titles IF they got along.

I'm just playing the IF game now, since everyone is doing the same.
How about Russell? He was a big and played against players smaller then him and never shot over 50%
IF he played in today's NBA, he would not have 11 titles and would not be a HOF'er.
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Old 12-07-2012, 05:07 PM   #167 (permalink)
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MikeMamba, you're arguing yourself into a corner.

Nobody is playing the 'if' game. It's a fact that Magic Johnson won as many titles as Kobe but in less seasons.

Regarding Russell, I have to correct you on something. He did not play against smaller centers. Russell's career was from 1957 to 1969. If you take the middle-season (1963) as a proxy, here are the starting centers in the NBA:

- Boston Celtics: Bill Russell (6'9")
- Syracuse Nationals: Red Kerr (6'9")
- Cincinnati Royals: Wayne Embry (6'8")
- New York Knicks: Willie Naulls (6'6")
- Los Angeles Lakers: Leroy Ellis (6'10")
- St. Louis Hawks: Zelmo Beaty (6'9")
- Detroit Pistons: Walter Dukes (7'0")
- San Francisco Warriors: Wilt Chamberlain (7'1")
- Chicago Zephyrs: Walt Bellamy (6'11")

It's important to know your NBA history before trying to ruin the reputation of one of the NBA's most respected and legendary players.
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Old 12-07-2012, 05:10 PM   #168 (permalink)
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This is why I'm such a "Team guy".

I couldn't care less who's the greatest ever.

All I care about it that MY team wins, regardless who's wearing the uniform.
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Old 12-07-2012, 05:15 PM   #169 (permalink)
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This is why I'm such a "Team guy".

I couldn't care less who's the greatest ever.

All I care about it that MY team wins, regardless who's wearing the uniform.
That's the best way of looking at things, but it's still fun to debate who the best players are. A lot of people - myself included - rank Larry Bird as one of the best ever because of his incredible team play. I have a hard time imagining him having a losing record even if you surrounded him with complete crap; he was such a phenomenal team player that he'd make any of his teammates look amazing.
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Old 12-07-2012, 05:18 PM   #170 (permalink)
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MikeMamba, you're arguing yourself into a corner.

Nobody is playing the 'if' game. It's a fact that Magic Johnson won as many titles as Kobe but in less seasons.

Regarding Russell, I have to correct you on something. He did not play against smaller centers. Russell's career was from 1957 to 1969. If you take the middle-season (1963) as a proxy, here are the starting centers in the NBA:

- Boston Celtics: Bill Russell (6'9")
- Syracuse Nationals: Red Kerr (6'9")
- Cincinnati Royals: Wayne Embry (6'8")
- New York Knicks: Willie Naulls (6'6")
- Los Angeles Lakers: Leroy Ellis (6'10")
- St. Louis Hawks: Zelmo Beaty (6'9")
- Detroit Pistons: Walter Dukes (7'0")
- San Francisco Warriors: Wilt Chamberlain (7'1")
- Chicago Zephyrs: Walt Bellamy (6'11")

It's important to know your NBA history before trying to ruin the reputation of one of the NBA's most respected and legendary players.
[Ctrl] F, type in "if" starting from the first page.... Go

Why did he shoot under .500? Average those players out, the average height is like 6'8 lol
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Old 12-07-2012, 05:21 PM   #171 (permalink)
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For the younger guys in here, I suggest you read through the following links. It may change your opinions about the legends of basketball.


NBA: The Case for Wilt Chamberlain as the Best Ever | Bleacher Report

Greatness Revisited: Why Wilt Chamberlain Was the Greatest NBA Player Ever | Bleacher Report
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Old 12-07-2012, 05:24 PM   #172 (permalink)
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Why did he shoot under .500? Average those players out, the average height is like 6'8 lol
I can see you're struggling with basic maths...

The average height of Bill Russell's 9 opposing centers is 6 foot and 9.7 inches. So let's round it to 6'10". In other words, on average, Bill Russell faced bigger centers.

So no, not "like 6'8", more like 6'10".

Russell shot under .500 because he wasn't a great offensive player in the same way that Kareem wasn't a great defensive player, Kobe isn't a great team player and Magic wasn't a great shooter.

Instead, Russell won games (and championships) because of his off-the-charts defense, rebounding, teamplay and leadership.
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Old 12-07-2012, 05:36 PM   #173 (permalink)
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I can see you're struggling with basic maths...

The average height of Bill Russell's 9 opposing centers is 6 foot and 9.7 inches. So let's round it to 6'10". In other words, on average, Bill Russell faced bigger centers.

So no, not "like 6'8", more like 6'10".

Russell shot under .500 because he wasn't a great offensive player in the same way that Kareem wasn't a great defensive player, Kobe isn't a great team player and Magic wasn't a great shooter.

Instead, Russell won games (and championships) because of his off-the-charts defense, rebounding, teamplay and leadership.
Magic wasn't a great shooter but still shot .500 + multiple times, Kobe not a "great team player" but still has won 5 titles, Kareem not a great defender but his defensive stats are there...
Did you personally see Russell though? Or going from what other people say? Because defensive stats weren't accounted for during his time.
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Old 12-07-2012, 05:36 PM   #174 (permalink)
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But I know he was a good defender, I just know because people always say so.
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Old 12-07-2012, 05:39 PM   #175 (permalink)
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Magic wasn't a great shooter but still shot .500 + multiple times, Kobe not a "great team player" but still has won 5 titles, Kareem not a great defender but his defensive stats are there...
...and Bill Russell wasn't a great offensive player and yet still won 11 championship rings.

You're arguing yourself into a corner again.

Quote:
Did you personally see Russell though? Or going from what other people say? Because defensive stats weren't accounted for during his time.
I've watched pretty much all the existing footage of Bill Russell playing basketball. I have spent a small fortune purchasing rare Bill Russell footage, game film, interviews, magazines, articles, newspapers and so on.

Not sure what else I can do to have an informed opinion on the man.
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