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Old 01-10-2013, 02:05 AM   #126 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by doodwheremycard View Post
What really make Panini suck donkey ass is their MAPP price point. Most of their products are really worth 50-65 a box but they are charging 100 of the bat.
And then when the MAPP finishes, some online retailers bump the prices UP when it is anything people like!

See Prizm!

The cost to the retailers shouldn't change because of the secondary market, but it does. It drains any potential 'value' out of the product!
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Old 01-10-2013, 02:25 AM   #127 (permalink)
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And then when the MAPP finishes, some online retailers bump the prices UP when it is anything people like!

See Prizm!

The cost to the retailers shouldn't change because of the secondary market, but it does. It drains any potential 'value' out of the product!
+1 Spot on...
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Old 01-10-2013, 07:25 AM   #128 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by hermanotarjeta View Post
Those $5 packs of fleer are no longer $5 a pack, they're more like $400 a box.

You could pull a $35,000 jordan all star auto out of a $3 pack of 1997-8 upper deck series 2.

And it's funny you use the term "fake hype", whatever happened to that great panini certified green run last year? Have those boxes doubled in price yet since those greens are the next pmg greens? Are those singles selling like hotcakes? What happens to this year's gold prizms when next year they have red prizms/5 and superfractor prizms/1 and black prizms/1 and orange prizms/25?
Well that $10,000 card can be pulled from a case of 03 Exquisite which costs $10,000 now. Whats the point?

I dont know how you can compare a 500 dollar pack or $100/pack gamble to a 24 pack $100 box of cards. I dont know how you can compare a exclusive contract to produce MJ and Lebron today which make the hottest HOF / Legend and the new face of the NBA in selling terms. You have a contract with the 2 of the biggest selling names under contract and you want to compare that to those who must compete against you without having the ability to use their demand to sell / compete?

You take away Lebon and MJ from UD and im willling to bet you look right over UD. Im willing to bet you dont get a $10k card out of any product. Im willing to bet exquisite never happens.

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Old 01-10-2013, 08:14 AM   #129 (permalink)
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I haven't opened any cases cause I don't like Panini BK products in general.

My friend pulled zero golds in his case, his only "group A" auto was a Kobe, after the break, he said he felt like he was prizm-raped.
I pulled 5 golds from my case so I must of got 2 of his .

You do not like basketball don't buy it .

I find it funny how all the sudden these guys act like opening cases is a investment . Opening boxes and cases have always been horrible .
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Old 01-10-2013, 08:20 AM   #130 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by drob50 View Post
And then when the MAPP finishes, some online retailers bump the prices UP when it is anything people like!

See Prizm!

The cost to the retailers shouldn't change because of the secondary market, but it does. It drains any potential 'value' out of the product!
Prizm was $1200 for 5 weeks you had your chance to buy it for that . It's $ 1400-1500 now it won't be that for long . It will be a $150 a box and then some . Lots of people said it will be $70-80 a box lol .
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Old 01-10-2013, 09:14 AM   #131 (permalink)
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I have to agree with the op, Complete garbage. Panini is ruining basketball cards. Lets just pray they didn't ruin NT. Prizm gold is the only thing people are going crazy for and thats only cause they numbered everything to /10
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Old 01-10-2013, 09:40 AM   #132 (permalink)
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Forget about all the nonsense... the bottom line is that majority of the bk collectors have stop busting panini bk products... at least in my area...

My LCS (2 of them) used to buy cases of Panini BK products, but they have now stop ordering them as a whole...maybe loses boxes for the occasion customer that comes in... that is about it...

They told me they were left with so much garbage and took some large hits as they had to flip the stuff that doesn't sell for steep discount... As their big breakers (including me) stop buying Panini Bk products....This is what we can do to let Panini know that their products sucks!! We stop buying, the dealers will stop buying, the distributor would stop buying and so on....

I have been telling people Panini bk products in general just doesn't bring the excitement, and value for years now... I have turned my focus on football and hockey... as it is a more competitive market still....

No going to waste more time discussing what is wrong with each products they produce...the thread will be way too long... until they change their mentality, I will continue not to support their bk products....
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Old 01-10-2013, 09:49 AM   #133 (permalink)
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THe following statement should end this whole discussion..

"Im not busting anymore Panini because I cant making fist full of cash from their wax. I dont care about the players or the game. I just care about spending $5000 on a case and being able to open it and sell it for $40,000. If thats not possible then Im going to Hulk up, get mad and tell everyone Panini ruined the hobby for me because I can no longer profit from a hobby!"

The end!

On that note, I told my wife we can no longer go to the movies anymore because I paid $13/ticket but when the movie is done, I have nothing to show for it therefore I cant make any money back. We also will not be taking anymore vacations. Because I dont want to spend $5000 going on a vacation and coming back and having nothing to show for it.
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Old 01-10-2013, 09:51 AM   #134 (permalink)
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A lot of Panini products don't bring good value that for sure. Some products this year seem horrible, such as timeless,absolute, and limited. Prizm and certified were they two good products thus far this year I think.

Ever since I started opening boxes in the mid 00's a lot of products don't offer much bang for there buck. I don't think it is something new. I think Panini gets the majority of the blame because they have the exclusive licensing to the NBA....

Anyone who opens boxes or cases has to expect or at least know there is a good chance they will be losing money. It's not like people are going into it blind...
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Old 01-10-2013, 10:10 AM   #135 (permalink)
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Orange,
I value your opinion as you have brought up some great points in past threads, but I think you are missing the point (at least my point).

I don't bust cases to make money...if that is the case it is a poor business plan as we all know that the overall odds is that you will lose money...it is like going to a casino... the longer to play, the odds will always be for the house..

But why do people gamble? or why bust boxes (I see it as a form of legalize gambling like the lotto).. it is the excitement and fun of seeing if you can get something great, not just value wise, but as a card it self...

Panini has lost sight of that IMO... all of their products are very similar one to the next, so there is no "excitement" for me anymore... lets go through the problems (I didn't want to do this, but here they are):

1. Recycling product theme through out their products. for example, they used the manu auto patch in like 4 products last year or the year before.. Flip jersey in 2 products already this year...

2. Expanded checklist on all products. I understand some collectors want a bigger checklist and they tried that with Totally Certified last year. But this year, seems like every single product has 100 rc 100 veterans and 100 so called legends... change it up...use the expanded checklist with only some sets, not every single sets!!

3. Different product for different type of collectors. Seems like all products this year seems to be the same (except prizm)... similar price point, similar cards...there is no variety... what is the difference between what you can pull between R&S, Prestige, Threads, etc?? They all seem the same to me..

4. Some one had mentioned budget concerns... I don't mind bring back sets that focus on NICE/GOOD inserts... Look at retro?? forget about the autos, the GU...bring me back set like the 90's fleer... won't cost them much money..

bottom line is, forget the value (at least for me)... their products are just tired, unoriginal, boring....

Oh last, I can't stand that fact they like to self promote so much...it is sickening!!


Quote:
Originally Posted by Orangejello727 View Post
THe following statement should end this whole discussion..

"Im not busting anymore Panini because I cant making fist full of cash from their wax. I dont care about the players or the game. I just care about spending $5000 on a case and being able to open it and sell it for $40,000. If thats not possible then Im going to Hulk up, get mad and tell everyone Panini ruined the hobby for me because I can no longer profit from a hobby!"

The end!

On that note, I told my wife we can no longer go to the movies anymore because I paid $13/ticket but when the movie is done, I have nothing to show for it therefore I cant make any money back. We also will not be taking anymore vacations. Because I dont want to spend $5000 going on a vacation and coming back and having nothing to show for it.
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Old 01-10-2013, 10:30 AM   #136 (permalink)
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The problems you listed seem more collector problems than card company problems. The hobby goes through cycles. Up and down, boring to exciting, player popularity to boring times.

With all this in mind, I seriously think its collectors getting burnt out because the hype on basketball players/sets has been on a high roll for a good decade and now is coming back to reality. Instead of focussing on the deflation, collectors are looking for someone to blame.

Listen man, 2003 brought Lebron. Biggest name to come to basketball out of school/college since Shaq in my opinion. Probably the biggest notorized star to come into the league that changed everything. He also brought a trail of Wade, Bosh, Melo. Next year was a dud and so was the year after. Then Bam!! D Rose. Then Blake Griffin and Linsanity. THe point is its been a "high" ride for a good decade with non stop excitement of stars, rookies putting on a show and creating a frenzy in the marketplace. Couple that with UD putting out some high end sets and the market demand for spening thousands on cards which brought speculators and big money to the hobby.

Now we have 2 decent stale years of rookie crops. Good rookies, but no excitement. No pre draft Hype like Lebron. No next saviour of the Bulls to take over MJs helm type D. Rose. We have John Wall and Kyrie Irving. Compare their hoppy popularity of the entrance of BG, Lebron, Rose?? Nothing special.

In my opinion the ride for Basketball collectors has been high for a long time. The deflation is bringing it back down and the only place to point the finger is at Panini and blame cards. Maybe just maybe our expectations are out of whack? Just a thought!
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Old 01-10-2013, 10:33 AM   #137 (permalink)
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Lets not forget that Retro wasn't a product UD came up with all on their own. It was a completley recycled product that had card designs that weren't even made by them. If Panini put out that same exact product, everyone would be crying that the autos weren't on card and more importantly, that they ruined PMG's.
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Old 01-10-2013, 11:02 AM   #138 (permalink)
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Draft classes goes through cycles, and I have no problem with that...but at the end of the day just look at the product itself...

When is the last time you saw 100 rc auto in a set... yes, I applaud them for being innovative on that front, but you don't have to do it again, and again and again...you can make a rookie heavy set, and another set not so rookie heavy... What I pointed out is not a hobby issue, it is a company issue.

I am not going to compare UD to Topps to Panini..just focus on what is in front of us... they can give all the excuses they can, but it is unacceptable when you have all that time due to the lockout and still can't put out a live Kyrie Irving auto... I would say 30% of the autos are redemption in this year's product... That is just laziness in my opinion...

Here is a concept and maybe I am just idealistic...
1. Produce the card being unsigned
2. Have two employees and fly around the country to get the cards signed after the games (at least for active players) You can do this in less than a month with additional $20k in expense. I am sure employees will appreciate this as they get to check out games and what not.
3. Bring them back, pack them into the packs... there you have it, no more redemption...

Like some already pointed out, I feel Panini just don't care about the product they are putting out, since they have a monopoly of the market... die-hard bk collectors will continue to buy because they have no where else to turn.. that is smart business, I don't disagree... but they will lose a lot of the casual or semi-die-hard guys like me..


Quote:
Originally Posted by Orangejello727 View Post
The problems you listed seem more collector problems than card company problems. The hobby goes through cycles. Up and down, boring to exciting, player popularity to boring times.

With all this in mind, I seriously think its collectors getting burnt out because the hype on basketball players/sets has been on a high roll for a good decade and now is coming back to reality. Instead of focussing on the deflation, collectors are looking for someone to blame.

Listen man, 2003 brought Lebron. Biggest name to come to basketball out of school/college since Shaq in my opinion. Probably the biggest notorized star to come into the league that changed everything. He also brought a trail of Wade, Bosh, Melo. Next year was a dud and so was the year after. Then Bam!! D Rose. Then Blake Griffin and Linsanity. THe point is its been a "high" ride for a good decade with non stop excitement of stars, rookies putting on a show and creating a frenzy in the marketplace. Couple that with UD putting out some high end sets and the market demand for spening thousands on cards which brought speculators and big money to the hobby.

Now we have 2 decent stale years of rookie crops. Good rookies, but no excitement. No pre draft Hype like Lebron. No next saviour of the Bulls to take over MJs helm type D. Rose. We have John Wall and Kyrie Irving. Compare their hoppy popularity of the entrance of BG, Lebron, Rose?? Nothing special.

In my opinion the ride for Basketball collectors has been high for a long time. The deflation is bringing it back down and the only place to point the finger is at Panini and blame cards. Maybe just maybe our expectations are out of whack? Just a thought!
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Old 01-10-2013, 11:04 AM   #139 (permalink)
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i have also lost interest for a while since the start of the season. the only product i am waiting for is national treasures, which would probably be released after the season during the nationals. i am also a bit scared on how they are going to handle it this year because of the two rookie classes. i am just hoping that they would do two different design for the rpa's of the two classes.
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Old 01-10-2013, 11:06 AM   #140 (permalink)
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i have also lost interest for a while since the start of the season. the only product i am waiting for is national treasures, which would probably be released after the season during the nationals. i am also a bit scared on how they are going to handle it this year because of the two rookie classes. i am just hoping that they would do two different design for the rpa's of the two classes.
They probably will jack up the cost as well...they jacked up the cost on NT football by $200 per case...
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Old 01-10-2013, 11:15 AM   #141 (permalink)
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Lets not forget that Retro wasn't a product UD came up with all on their own. It was a completley recycled product that had card designs that weren't even made by them. If Panini put out that same exact product, everyone would be crying that the autos weren't on card and more importantly, that they ruined PMG's.
Panini's Choice Awards from Preferred is the same copay from 1997 Pacific Cramer's Choice. I don't see one post here that people say about panini being the copycat. So, it is not about favourism on UD but not on Panini..

Topps, UD and Fleer all did a lot of retro sets before. It is nothing new for card companies to recycle their own classic designs. But the scale/volume of UD did to Fleer Retro is much higher than other previous retro design.
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Old 01-10-2013, 11:22 AM   #142 (permalink)
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Here is a concept and maybe I am just idealistic...
1. Produce the card being unsigned
2. Have two employees and fly around the country to get the cards signed after the games (at least for active players) You can do this in less than a month with additional $20k in expense. I am sure employees will appreciate this as they get to check out games and what not.
3. Bring them back, pack them into the packs... there you have it, no more redemption...

Like some already pointed out, I feel Panini just don't care about the product they are putting out, since they have a monopoly of the market... die-hard bk collectors will continue to buy because they have no where else to turn.. that is smart business, I don't disagree... but they will lose a lot of the casual or semi-die-hard guys like me..

How has any of this changed since Panini came into the NBA?

UD put out stickers all day long. They put in redemptions all day long as well. Panini is no different.

How have the dynamics changed with UD in the game and Panini now in the game?

Before we had sticker autos and redemptions. After, we still have them.

100 card rookie set? Thats a span of 2 yr drafts because of the NBA not because of production. I dont remember the last time there was a 2 draft product except back in 1998 when they didnt do a 2 draft set, instead they just didnt produce.

in the 00s people complained about too many GU, dull boring designs. The same thing you complain about Panini was being said about UD when Fleer went belly up in the mid 00s.

What you hate about Panini is exactly what you hated about UD. I dont understand what has changed? except the blame has moved from one company to the next!

UD never flew anyone around to sign cards. Infact they introduce the "no guilt" process by having reps work on their behalf to sign. That way they would have tons of sticker autos and didnt have to vouch for authenticity.

It went from "Signed in the presence of a UD rep" to "Signed and authenticated to us by a third party".

GU went from actually "Used during a game" to "even worn" and "certified to us by third party as used during a game"

Its pretty clear that the hatred is towards a NON UD marketplace. The only way for fanboys to show it is by putting down Panini. Just a sad state for collectors. As resellers and profiteers are essentially controlling a hobby meant for fun and not hard cash income profitting.
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Old 01-10-2013, 11:39 AM   #143 (permalink)
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I think you misunderstood me...I am in now way defending UD... again, not trying to compare UD to Panini...just bring out the fact as is with Panini... not once in my previous argument that I compared any of the companies.

But in all honesty, has the basketball collecting world been better since Panini obtained the exclusive right? Forget about value and such... when is the last time you saw a Panini product and said, I would love to own this card... I can honestly say that I only want the following cards from Panini:

NT RPA
NT Logoman non-auto

That's about it... I can honestly say that with UD they were more cards I said I want to own that...

UD Black Trophy Patch Auto
UD Black All-star patch Auto
Exquisite Logoman
Exquisite Scripted Swatches
Ultimate Collection Rookie Logoman Auto
SP Game Used Rookie Exclusive
SP Authentic multi signs of the time (back when it was on-card)

Even Fleer
EX Jambalaya
Metal Universe (all rare inserts, not including the PMGs)
Hoops (some inserts were really cool, can't remember the exact names)

That is all I am saying... doesn't seem like there is an it card in their product... forget about the players... where are the "cool" cards, the I gotta have that "card"...
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Old 01-10-2013, 11:41 AM   #144 (permalink)
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I don't wanna say I told ya so (not directed at OP) but I told people Prizm would be good, TC would be good (debatable) and now it is essentially time to wait til NT comes out unless you get bored and just wanna go bust some random wax. Not a single case should be purchased though!!!
really? you don't want to? that seems to be all you do in your posts.
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Old 01-10-2013, 11:45 AM   #145 (permalink)
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Yeah, the first year of it was so exciting! Logoman and tags, some nice quad jerseys, a good product. Fast forward to now and it's.......
agreed! I also loved how Tracy&Keith said in their box break video yesterday, that the ball autograph RCs of the past, were tossed out the window "due to member feedback"....

YEAH RIGHT! they had stickers so they used them. the time and effort into these products were clearly minimal. they have had little to no variations at all this year, so why would they be abel to have a ball auto? thats the real truth

did you use the 1 of 1 lettering for your cards (the same as UDs), because it was the only font on your computer? did you change rookie tickets from playoff contenders this year because you got feedback that the rookie tickets weren't good anymore?

plz just keep producing trash so we don't have to waste our money
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Old 01-10-2013, 11:50 AM   #146 (permalink)
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Why do we need two threads on this? If you don't like a product why don't you just stick to singles. All products can't be winners and all aren't. Buying cards is a gamble in a way because you don't know what is inside the packs. You got what was promised on the outside of the box, right? So you should be happy with it and move on. If you don't like the value a certain product provides, don't buy it!

You don't have to bust everything these card companies put out. You also don't have to feel to be a slave to have all the cards from all the products. I've made more money by being picky and choosey about which products to open. Most boxes only have a 50% ROI on them. Not every box has a Kobe or a Lebron auto in it or they wouldn't be valuable.

Correction a negative 50% roi on them.
because some of those who aren't purchasing the products, feel the responsibility to alert others of our feelings on the products. hopefully so that they will notice and feel the same way, if they haven't already made a judgement that they like it. if they do, thats fine too.

and thanks for telling us we don't have to do, what we clearly aren't doing per our out lash in this thread.
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Old 01-10-2013, 11:51 AM   #147 (permalink)
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I pulled 5 golds from my case so I must of got 2 of his .

You do not like basketball don't buy it .

I find it funny how all the sudden these guys act like opening cases is a investment . Opening boxes and cases have always been horrible .
The problem is, I LIKE basketball. I enjoy it today as much as I did since the early 80's.

I've already followed your advice, I don't like Panini basketball, so I don't buy it.

Upper Deck supporters are disappointed with Panini because, yes, I've opened over 60 cases of exquisite basketball since 2003, and countless other CASES of sp authentic, spx, UD black, and other outstanding upper deck products in the last decade.

It's funny, I haven't purchased a single sealed case of Panini product EVER.

I'm not a blind upper deck supporter, I think their un-licensed stuff has run it's course- it sucks as well.

Fortunately, there's enough good pre-panini basketball to keep us entertained for a lifetime.

Unfortunately, the only selection availabe for current product is significantly inferior to what was available before.

If Panini starts to IMPROVE their product, the masses will come back, but the fact is, they haven't. It still sucks, ie, there is no temptation for any previous basketball wax whale to even think about opening a case of any of their products.

Basketball doesn't sell as well as it used to, and the lack of good products is to blame.

If it weren't for Griffin and Lin, 60% of most of all Panini products would still be sitting in their warehouse, untouched, unwanted.

If I don't have any motivation to open anything Panini, and I still love the sport as much as I used to, and thousands of others share my sentiment, something must be wrong with what Panini has to offer.

You should be glad most people don't like Panini. Prizm would get too expensive for anyone to open if all the whales got involved.
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Old 01-10-2013, 11:51 AM   #148 (permalink)
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I think you misunderstood me...I am in now way defending UD... again, not trying to compare UD to Panini...just bring out the fact as is with Panini... not once in my previous argument that I compared any of the companies.

But in all honesty, has the basketball collecting world been better since Panini obtained the exclusive right? Forget about value and such... when is the last time you saw a Panini product and said, I would love to own this card... I can honestly say that I only want the following cards from Panini:

NT RPA
NT Logoman non-auto

That's about it... I can honestly say that with UD they were more cards I said I want to own that...

UD Black Trophy Patch Auto
UD Black All-star patch Auto
Exquisite Logoman
Exquisite Scripted Swatches
Ultimate Collection Rookie Logoman Auto
SP Game Used Rookie Exclusive
SP Authentic multi signs of the time (back when it was on-card)

Even Fleer
EX Jambalaya
Metal Universe (all rare inserts, not including the PMGs)
Hoops (some inserts were really cool, can't remember the exact names)

That is all I am saying... doesn't seem like there is an it card in their product... forget about the players... where are the "cool" cards, the I gotta have that "card"...
My list is probably larger than yours for Panini and smaller than yours for UD lol.

NT Logoman
NT RPA
Certified PRA Blue/Green
NT Nickname Autos
Preferred Sillouettes Prime
NT Legends patchs
NT Legends Auto
NT Penpal Autos
NT base plantinum /1, /5 and /10
Black box 6 way autos
Black box triple patches
GS Solid Golds
GS Black gold patches Prime
Prizm Golds
Prizm Green
Prizm Ref /Auto
Prizm USA

These are all sets I love and would chase but just out of my budget. Seems like people favor UD or Panini. Thats their choice. But you cant say there isnt any quality coming out of Panini. Ill admit there is garbage coming out Panini. But can you admit UD had just as much garbage coming out of UD as well? It was just overshadowed with a chance to hit an MJ or Lebron auto if anything!!
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Old 01-10-2013, 11:55 AM   #149 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Orangejello727 View Post
Well that $10,000 card can be pulled from a case of 03 Exquisite which costs $10,000 now. Whats the point?

I dont know how you can compare a 500 dollar pack or $100/pack gamble to a 24 pack $100 box of cards. I dont know how you can compare a exclusive contract to produce MJ and Lebron today which make the hottest HOF / Legend and the new face of the NBA in selling terms. You have a contract with the 2 of the biggest selling names under contract and you want to compare that to those who must compete against you without having the ability to use their demand to sell / compete?

You take away Lebon and MJ from UD and im willling to bet you look right over UD. Im willing to bet you dont get a $10k card out of any product. Im willing to bet exquisite never happens.
MJ and Lebron are only part of the reason I enjoyed the NBA licensed UD stuff the best, the designs and product breakdowns are the other reason.

If Panini had MJ and Lebron and they used their autos in their inferior products, they would find a way to kill that market as well. UD licensed Lebron and MJ stuff would always be more desired than any Panini Lebron and MJ.

I bust a ton of wax, in all sports, cause I enjoy it.

I don't bust a lot of Panini stuff.

Something is wrong with their products, cause i'm not the only one who shares this sentiment.
hermanotarjeta is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-10-2013, 12:01 PM   #150 (permalink)
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I assume you are one of the few that has not reduce your breaking since Panini took over.. good for you as you see more in Panini than I do... Speaking for myself, I went from a 30k per year bk breaker to a 3k per year bk breaker... That is 90% decrease!!

I am not the only one...in the circle of breakers that I know, we all have decrease probably about that much... I am just stating fact, something gotta be wrong right?? There were UD complaints back in the days I am not going to deny that...but just the frequency is more with Panini than UD (at least how I see it)...
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