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Old 01-10-2013, 10:07 PM   #201 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Jin View Post
Nah man I liked Panini products and have supported them the past 3 years and have a lot of their stuff, it's just this year we were presented with the worst products and clearly most manipulative company procedures I can ever remember since joining the hobby in 2003.
Presented with the worst products? Prizm and Certified were not the worst of all time. Gold Standard was good.

As for manipulative? How so? Like committing fraud and making fake cards to profit? Or like adding autos into products and not paying players? Why type of manipulation are we talking about?
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Old 01-11-2013, 03:46 AM   #202 (permalink)
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Presented with the worst products? Prizm and Certified were not the worst of all time. Gold Standard was good.

As for manipulative? How so? Like committing fraud and making fake cards to profit? Or like adding autos into products and not paying players? Why type of manipulation are we talking about?
Absolute/Contenders/Limited/Prestige/Timeless were all weak compared to previous' years. This years' Gold Standard hasn't been released. True, Prizm and TC were decent products. We'll have to wait and see for NT and Preferred.

Manipulative as in overstuffing products with common 2nd year and no-name rookie autos, the disappearance of stars from checklists, taking excessive amounts of time to release redemptions, having chase cards not live in products, no longer guaranteeing case hits, continuous use of ambiguous authenticity statements, failure to land big names, absent use of technology in inserts though we now know they have the capability to, how they keep pushing back release dates even though more than 75% of the autographs are on stickers, and I'm pretty sure they have attributed random memorabilia pieces to different players (few threads ago, a couple Kobe patches were identified to have come from an Eastern All-Star warm-up jacket.)

I'm not trying to argue with you; I was simply voicing my frustration and own opinions at the lack of overall quality and value that these past few products have left us with. It's our right as consumers to voice our frustration, no? I don't understand why you take it so personally when anyone attacks Panini.
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Old 01-11-2013, 04:27 AM   #203 (permalink)
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I think I wrote this somewhere...

Manufactured Patch - Every company has done this before Panini. Looks at Topps Letterman, that was a giant steal your money product by many means. Forget there were manufactured letter superfractors, I might as well have bought chrome.

Auto on manufactured piece - UD black had plenty of this...Topps has plenty of this.

UD VS Panini - My take, all are the same. Yes, the one company exclusive gives us an easier target but all in all, I blame GU/Auto for making this hobby the way it is. 2003-2010 (the years of the so called fake jersey seller selling "authentic" jerseys to UD/Panini/Topps/whatever) was the years that I stepped away from this hobby because it was getting expensive. Cool inserts were being replaced by crappy autos and crappy GU. People kept busting fleer and UD to get that ONE GU card. I remember pulling a TMac GU out of 02/03 flair edition and was all google over it and that point, i sold it on ebay for like 30 bucks. Then the overproduction came, but so did the economic boom, times were great, people were earning plenty of money and because of collectors overseas who are very crazy about the NBA, companies just kept churning the presses. Today, is just a continuation of what has been going on for the past decade. Panini has this group break account for group breakers so they know they will sell through that. MAPP and a smaller dealer distribution means more product gets sold out of the main factory faster than in the past, and overseas interest is still at a all time high. You should see the people here in Hong Kong busting case after case after case.

I think everyone makes valid points, good and bad, in these threads. I blame it on us, not the companies that is the reason why the hobby is like this. We enabled them to do this to us, and we enabled them to rip us off. We ripped ourselves off by spending, opening and etc. Look at all the group breaks, sure its cheaper than buying a box, but the more you join, the more cases are being opened, then the more the companies will then just keep doing this to us.

Btw, one thing I hated about UD, poor customer service, the chase factor is great but not for autos/GU. And they milked this from us like anything.

one thing i hate about panini, i like their efforts to make some variety, you give them that. but the quality sucks for base cards (i love set collecting) and there is only an effort to churn out autos/gu/autos/gu and now, they are trying to make some inserts "rare" but they look the same. It is too late, making absolute spectrum a case hit, doesnt help when it was one per box last year. Kenny Smith this year is Kenny Smith last year.

And yea, dont open cases to flip/make money, invest in others things. if you can bust 20K to 30K a month, save the money, get an MBA somewhere or pursue a masters degree, take the CFA, CPA and you get more out of that long term. at the end of the day, we are arguing over black/white/asian sweaty men on a piece of cardboard.

Just for the sake since we are on this topic

My Top 5 Worst Products:
07/08 Topps Letterman Basketball/Football
08/09 Topps Signature Basketball
09/10 SP Signature Basketball
12/13 Timeless Trash Basketball
10/11 Elite Black Basketball

My Top 5 Favorite Products:
94/95 Fleer Basketball
98/99 Skybox Thunder
09/10 Panini Classics
04/05 SP Authentic
97/98 Flair Showcase

Last edited by Ironcourtcards; 01-11-2013 at 04:42 AM.
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Old 01-11-2013, 05:19 AM   #204 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Orangejello727 View Post
Im not contending improvements to quality and design. Im just patient about it as it takes time to develop it. Doesnt happen overnight. UD started business in 1989. In 2003 they came out with exquisite. All im saying is it takes time to get there. WHats the rush? The mayans were wrong!!
Really? You act like since Panini just recently acquired the NBA license, they automatically have to start from square one. The times have drastically changed, and the state of sports cards has reached its potential in terms of game worn, autographs, so on and so forth. Unless they start putting chunks of hair inside the cards, there isn't much left to do. The ground work has most certainly been laid for them. It's all about presentation and effort at this point. Something Panini has lacked in most of their releases.

Just because I suggest improvements and want higher quality products from them doesn't mean I should "get lost" or stop collecting. It's called feedback. I have quite a few Panini singles in my collection that I really like, or else I wouldn't have purchased them in the first place. I just wish they would take some extra time and try a little harder on most of their products. No sides taken, no bull****. I just want to continue enjoying this hobby. Panini stepping up their game greatly contributes to that.
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Old 01-11-2013, 06:38 AM   #205 (permalink)
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boycott all panini products!!! Wait for National Treasures
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Old 01-11-2013, 06:48 AM   #206 (permalink)
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boycott all panini products!!! Wait for National Treasures
That wouldn't be boycotting all Panini products.... That would be waiting for one panini product. I will agree that I am also excited for national treasure. I hope the double rookie class doesn't ruin it.
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Old 01-11-2013, 07:37 AM   #207 (permalink)
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Really? You act like since Panini just recently acquired the NBA license, they automatically have to start from square one. The times have drastically changed, and the state of sports cards has reached its potential in terms of game worn, autographs, so on and so forth. Unless they start putting chunks of hair inside the cards, there isn't much left to do. The ground work has most certainly been laid for them. It's all about presentation and effort at this point. Something Panini has lacked in most of their releases.

Just because I suggest improvements and want higher quality products from them doesn't mean I should "get lost" or stop collecting. It's called feedback. I have quite a few Panini singles in my collection that I really like, or else I wouldn't have purchased them in the first place. I just wish they would take some extra time and try a little harder on most of their products. No sides taken, no bull****. I just want to continue enjoying this hobby. Panini stepping up their game greatly contributes to that.

I swear you basketball people are so fickle. Not too long ago the same "burn Panini at the stake crowd" were crying about;

-Too many kobe/star autos which is watering down prices
-Too many inserts and paralells
-Not enough product coming out

Now its all the opposite. Everything is all upside down and you want a guaranteed hit, you want more parallels and hate the fact that there is too much product coming out too fast.

Everyone wants improvement and better quality. What they dont want is increases in prices. You cant have the best of both worlds. You also cant expect it overnight. I dont understand where this theory of turning out a perfect product comes overnight. No company in the world has found the perfect recipe overnight to perfection. The impatience is killing you. Its killing you so much that you cant sleep at night. You wake up praying to god wondering why you must suffer in a hobby where you have a choice.

LIke i said, take a break. Come back when panini has sorted it out. If they still haven't, youll know what to do. When I run bad at the casino, I take a break. I dont come on line and start to blame the casino and the games. I take a break and go back.
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Old 01-11-2013, 04:43 PM   #208 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Orangejello727 View Post
I swear you basketball people are so fickle. Not too long ago the same "burn Panini at the stake crowd" were crying about;

-Too many kobe/star autos which is watering down prices
-Too many inserts and paralells
-Not enough product coming out

Now its all the opposite. Everything is all upside down and you want a guaranteed hit, you want more parallels and hate the fact that there is too much product coming out too fast.

Everyone wants improvement and better quality. What they dont want is increases in prices. You cant have the best of both worlds. You also cant expect it overnight. I dont understand where this theory of turning out a perfect product comes overnight. No company in the world has found the perfect recipe overnight to perfection. The impatience is killing you. Its killing you so much that you cant sleep at night. You wake up praying to god wondering why you must suffer in a hobby where you have a choice.

LIke i said, take a break. Come back when panini has sorted it out. If they still haven't, youll know what to do. When I run bad at the casino, I take a break. I dont come on line and start to blame the casino and the games. I take a break and go back.
When did I ever say any of that? I've made it very clear that I don't open the products. I collect the singles I like. So obviously your reading comprehension seems to be off. My last post was very straight forward, and you seemed to ignore 99% of it just so you could tell me how much sleep I lose over basketball cards. You're just trying to argue for the hell of it instead of having a conversation.

By the way, the casino analogy is terrible and makes zero sense.
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Old 01-11-2013, 04:59 PM   #209 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Ironcourtcards View Post
My Top 5 Favorite Products:
94/95 Fleer Basketball
98/99 Skybox Thunder
09/10 Panini Classics
04/05 SP Authentic
97/98 Flair Showcase
I saw this list and was just curious as to why 94/95 Fleer made your favorite products?
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Old 01-11-2013, 07:09 PM   #210 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Kingofkings1281 View Post
When did I ever say any of that? I've made it very clear that I don't open the products. I collect the singles I like. So obviously your reading comprehension seems to be off. My last post was very straight forward, and you seemed to ignore 99% of it just so you could tell me how much sleep I lose over basketball cards. You're just trying to argue for the hell of it instead of having a conversation.

By the way, the casino analogy is terrible and makes zero sense.
And my point is still the same it was from the beginning. You stated you collect singles that you like. If you dont like it, dont collect it. Pretty simple concept. I dont buy things I dont like.
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Old 01-11-2013, 07:18 PM   #211 (permalink)
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Would it be wise to get a case of Prizm if I can find one? I found a case for $1400, don't know if I should break that or just hold onto it.
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Old 01-11-2013, 07:38 PM   #212 (permalink)
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I saw this list and was just curious as to why 94/95 Fleer made your favorite products?
Hey there, i liked the design. I collect base sets and the name display with that foil color splash just stood out to me.

The only panini base set that is nice is 09/10' classics, simple.
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Old 01-11-2013, 07:40 PM   #213 (permalink)
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I think I wrote this somewhere...

Manufactured Patch - Every company has done this before Panini. Looks at Topps Letterman, that was a giant steal your money product by many means. Forget there were manufactured letter superfractors, I might as well have bought chrome.

Auto on manufactured piece - UD black had plenty of this...Topps has plenty of this.

UD VS Panini - My take, all are the same. Yes, the one company exclusive gives us an easier target but all in all, I blame GU/Auto for making this hobby the way it is. 2003-2010 (the years of the so called fake jersey seller selling "authentic" jerseys to UD/Panini/Topps/whatever) was the years that I stepped away from this hobby because it was getting expensive. Cool inserts were being replaced by crappy autos and crappy GU. People kept busting fleer and UD to get that ONE GU card. I remember pulling a TMac GU out of 02/03 flair edition and was all google over it and that point, i sold it on ebay for like 30 bucks. Then the overproduction came, but so did the economic boom, times were great, people were earning plenty of money and because of collectors overseas who are very crazy about the NBA, companies just kept churning the presses. Today, is just a continuation of what has been going on for the past decade. Panini has this group break account for group breakers so they know they will sell through that. MAPP and a smaller dealer distribution means more product gets sold out of the main factory faster than in the past, and overseas interest is still at a all time high. You should see the people here in Hong Kong busting case after case after case.

I think everyone makes valid points, good and bad, in these threads. I blame it on us, not the companies that is the reason why the hobby is like this. We enabled them to do this to us, and we enabled them to rip us off. We ripped ourselves off by spending, opening and etc. Look at all the group breaks, sure its cheaper than buying a box, but the more you join, the more cases are being opened, then the more the companies will then just keep doing this to us.

Btw, one thing I hated about UD, poor customer service, the chase factor is great but not for autos/GU. And they milked this from us like anything.

one thing i hate about panini, i like their efforts to make some variety, you give them that. but the quality sucks for base cards (i love set collecting) and there is only an effort to churn out autos/gu/autos/gu and now, they are trying to make some inserts "rare" but they look the same. It is too late, making absolute spectrum a case hit, doesnt help when it was one per box last year. Kenny Smith this year is Kenny Smith last year.

And yea, dont open cases to flip/make money, invest in others things. if you can bust 20K to 30K a month, save the money, get an MBA somewhere or pursue a masters degree, take the CFA, CPA and you get more out of that long term. at the end of the day, we are arguing over black/white/asian sweaty men on a piece of cardboard.

Just for the sake since we are on this topic

My Top 5 Worst Products:
07/08 Topps Letterman Basketball/Football
08/09 Topps Signature Basketball
09/10 SP Signature Basketball
12/13 Timeless Trash Basketball
10/11 Elite Black Basketball

My Top 5 Favorite Products:
94/95 Fleer Basketball
98/99 Skybox Thunder
09/10 Panini Classics
04/05 SP Authentic
97/98 Flair Showcase
This was an excellent post, thank you for sharing.
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Old 01-11-2013, 08:19 PM   #214 (permalink)
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Hey there, i liked the design. I collect base sets and the name display with that foil color splash just stood out to me.

The only panini base set that is nice is 09/10' classics, simple.
I preferred 93-94, the inserts were nicer and the base were cool with the open-block lettering for the names (and possibly because that was the first year I got into cards). 94-95 were cool with the foil splash though, anytime I see one I remember how fun it was and those ugly all-star orange cards.
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Old 01-11-2013, 08:57 PM   #215 (permalink)
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And my point is still the same it was from the beginning. You stated you collect singles that you like. If you dont like it, dont collect it. Pretty simple concept. I dont buy things I dont like.
I don't collect what I don't like. I would just enjoy it if they produced more sets that I find appealing. It really is that simple.

However, you're right. Panini shouldn't try at all to better themselves, they should continue to regress as they have this year. Agree to disagree.
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Old 01-11-2013, 09:50 PM   #216 (permalink)
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Panini released 10 product lines in 2012-13, only Prizm and TC are worth collecting. Their business model can be more streamlined, cut out the fat. Before the sets are released they should be rated on this website, like a poll, to see which sets to release. What better way to see what your customers want than asking us!!!
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Old 01-11-2013, 10:12 PM   #217 (permalink)
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Looking forward to seeing the first spinning dual Logomen cards coming out in National Treasures
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Old 01-11-2013, 10:28 PM   #218 (permalink)
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Looking forward to seeing the first spinning dual Logomen cards coming out in National Treasures
lol..and every time you spin the logo or jersey, an electronic voice will come out of the card "loser, keep buying, loser, keep buying"


I had a though once, and call me a loser for this, where one day i read on paninis blog that inserted into this product will be autos of FAMOUS GROUP BREAKERS and INDUSTRY NAMES (Hackler, Prusha, chri5784, Chad Thetruth will have autos in the product) lol...
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Old 01-11-2013, 10:40 PM   #219 (permalink)
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I've bought quite a few Panini patch cards recently and they look pretty nice in hand...I will continue to buy for sure...I dont buy and bust boxes/cases to make money...I buy the singles that i like for my pc and i bust or enter breaks once in awhile for fun...I know the risks, so if i dont get anything good i dont get all but hurt about it and start crying about it on a public forum...This is strictly a Hobby for me so from my point of view i think Panini is doing a decent job!..Sorry if i offended anyone with this statement...
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Old 01-11-2013, 11:09 PM   #220 (permalink)
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I've bought quite a few Panini patch cards recently and they look pretty nice in hand...I will continue to buy for sure...I dont buy and bust boxes/cases to make money...I buy the singles that i like for my pc and i bust or enter breaks once in awhile for fun...I know the risks, so if i dont get anything good i dont get all but hurt about it and start crying about it on a public forum...This is strictly a Hobby for me so from my point of view i think Panini is doing a decent job!..Sorry if i offended anyone with this statement...
I agree completely with your statement. I guess it's frowned upon to be a smart collector and pick out singles you like. It's better to blow 1000s of dollars chasing holy grails and whine when it goes down the drain. Not that i'm mad, like I said, those angry .99+shipping auctions help fuel my PC.
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Old 01-11-2013, 11:55 PM   #221 (permalink)
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I agree completely with your statement. I guess it's frowned upon to be a smart collector and pick out singles you like. It's better to blow 1000s of dollars chasing holy grails and whine when it goes down the drain. Not that i'm mad, like I said, those angry .99+shipping auctions help fuel my PC.
Without those who blow 1000s on these products then you wouldn't have any singles to pick from in the first place; what they deem as satisfactory/unsatisfactory product determines what goes in your PC. Don't assert yourself too highly cause you don't bust
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Old 01-12-2013, 01:02 AM   #222 (permalink)
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I don't collect what I don't like. I would just enjoy it if they produced more sets that I find appealing. It really is that simple.

However, you're right. Panini shouldn't try at all to better themselves, they should continue to regress as they have this year. Agree to disagree.
Im in favour. Im just advocating patience on your part. It takes time to learn from mistakes.
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Old 01-12-2013, 01:52 AM   #223 (permalink)
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If only Panini had Jordan stuff, maybe they wouldn't be hated so much?
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Old 01-12-2013, 01:54 AM   #224 (permalink)
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If only Panini had Jordan stuff, maybe they wouldn't be hated so much?
Was exquisite basketball this year that much better than the panini stuff?
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Old 01-12-2013, 01:57 AM   #225 (permalink)
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No. Exquisite was bad this year. I am just saying that not having any Jordan cards in your products has to hurt, since he is the king of the NBA and so collected.
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