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Old 01-26-2013, 12:18 AM   #26 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by go_steelers07 View Post
is UD even making any Hockey this year?
They are making retro as a 12/13 product. Im just wondering if they drop it for next years hockey with what may be considered a double class.

Im kind of laughing at people on here who think Panini products will be WAY cheaper. I think many are forgetting Blowout and the LCS still have a fixed cost in this stuff. They arent going to immediately lose money on Panini products so expecting 30%+ discounts from where stuff is now isnt reasonable. The problem is that Panini places WAY too high of a cost on their products to LCS and distributors etc. You will see an immediate difference but not as large as some are expecting.
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Old 01-26-2013, 12:22 AM   #27 (permalink)
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i don't know what factory cost was but the local distributor that sells to LCS's here is $92 on contenders.
Sorry, I was talking about Contenders Football. I think MAPP on Contenders basketball is $120, and it costs $90 direct from Panini. Still only $30 profit on a $120 sale, before accounting for any credit card fees.

My point is people complain like a LCS is doubling their money on a box. Yes there are some shops that overprice products. But shops that are at $120 on Contenders basketball are in no way taking advantage of customers with that price.
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Old 01-26-2013, 02:07 AM   #28 (permalink)
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to me the problem is really with the content of the product

and i believe this is something that will not be solved unless something radical happens

for me as a distributor (non USA), i pay around 10% for shipping and 7% local tax, the profit margin for a box of cards is ridiculously thin

Prizm was a one off.

Take limited for example, the 2 cases i brought in for my local collectors was pure crap

The contents really have to be better. And if they really improve the content, i am sure MAPP itself will not even need to be mandatory
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Old 01-26-2013, 12:43 PM   #29 (permalink)
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to me the problem is really with the content of the product

and i believe this is something that will not be solved unless something radical happens

for me as a distributor (non USA), i pay around 10% for shipping and 7% local tax, the profit margin for a box of cards is ridiculously thin

Prizm was a one off.

Take limited for example, the 2 cases i brought in for my local collectors was pure crap

The contents really have to be better. And if they really improve the content, i am sure MAPP itself will not even need to be mandatory
They wont be better. Every product since Prizm and Certified has been complete garbage. Limited, Absolute and Timeless come to mind.
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Old 01-26-2013, 12:49 PM   #30 (permalink)
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They wont be better. Every product since Prizm and Certified has been complete garbage. Limited, Absolute and Timeless come to mind.
Take the good stuff from Limited, Absolute and Timeless combine them, then throw out a quality product. People want their moneys worth.
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Old 01-26-2013, 12:52 PM   #31 (permalink)
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Oh good, maybe a hobby box of low end stuff like Hoops will be around $40 instead of the ridiculous $70
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Old 01-26-2013, 12:54 PM   #32 (permalink)
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good move...
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Old 01-26-2013, 01:05 PM   #33 (permalink)
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Now everything besides Prizm/TC should drop in price significantly
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Old 01-26-2013, 07:40 PM   #34 (permalink)
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Can't help but feel like this may be the end result of ending MAPP pricing:

No MAPP pricing means product may be offered at pre-order at lower prices
Pre-orders go up due to lower prices
More people want product so Panini makes more product
Wanting to make more money, Panini prints more base cards and inserts less valuable autographs and memorabilia cards
People, while paying a lower price, are just as angry over the quality of the product being low

Also this hurts the LCS since they can no longer compete with online. The original idea behind MAPP was to set a price floor to a product as well as give the LCS a week jump on the product. They got rid of the later pretty quickly, and now the former is gone. To me, this may provide some great short-term benefits, such as National Treasures BB being lower in price, but long term could hurt us all by causing some LCS to go out of business due to not being able to compete with online. I dunno, I think we can all agree that MAPP isn't such a bad idea IF you give the customer something in return for their money.
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Old 01-27-2013, 09:02 AM   #35 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by jr24ai3 View Post
Sorry, I was talking about Contenders Football. I think MAPP on Contenders basketball is $120, and it costs $90 direct from Panini. Still only $30 profit on a $120 sale, before accounting for any credit card fees.

My point is people complain like a LCS is doubling their money on a box. Yes there are some shops that overprice products. But shops that are at $120 on Contenders basketball are in no way taking advantage of customers with that price.

how do you know what lcs owner have to pay for their items? the price depends on the number you buy from them, so the prices are lower than we think. most products retailer sell have an increase of 100-120% of the buying price. for example we buy shoes from nike 50$ a piece and charge 120$ in store, wich is the mapp from nike. after some time we are able to give discounts for them, by the end to get rid of them we do 50% off the original mapp so still with 50% off we have 10$ + what we paid for them. i think some guys need some merchant help.

so we buy it for 50$
mapp is 120$
we have a + of 70$
with this 70$ + we need to calculate all our cost (tax, rent, workes, energy ....)

so you example with contenders
asking price 120$
buying price 90
+ 30$ can't work, because it can't cover the lcs costs!
the buying price is in the 50-60$ area not 90$

the buying price from any manufacturer is under 50% of the asking price.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brobocop View Post
Can't help but feel like this may be the end result of ending MAPP pricing:

No MAPP pricing means product may be offered at pre-order at lower prices
Pre-orders go up due to lower prices
More people want product so Panini makes more product
Wanting to make more money, Panini prints more base cards and inserts less valuable autographs and memorabilia cards
People, while paying a lower price, are just as angry over the quality of the product being low

Also this hurts the LCS since they can no longer compete with online. The original idea behind MAPP was to set a price floor to a product as well as give the LCS a week jump on the product. They got rid of the later pretty quickly, and now the former is gone. To me, this may provide some great short-term benefits, such as National Treasures BB being lower in price, but long term could hurt us all by causing some LCS to go out of business due to not being able to compete with online. I dunno, I think we can all agree that MAPP isn't such a bad idea IF you give the customer something in return for their money.
well the collector of today want the ceapest prices no matter what that means to the hobby.
like you wrote, the mapp was a good idea but it didn't work the way they wanted, with a drop of it you will see again more lcs will go down because nobody can compete with online store wich have much less costs then an real lcs owner!

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Old 01-27-2013, 09:22 AM   #36 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by lennox.p View Post
how do you know what lcs owner have to pay for their items? the price depends on the number you buy from them, so the prices are lower than we think. most products retailer sell have an increase of 100-120% of the buying price. for example we buy shoes from nike 50$ a piece and charge 120$ in store, wich is the mapp from nike. after some time we are able to give discounts for them, by the end to get rid of them we do 50% off the original mapp so still with 50% off we have 10$ + what we paid for them. i think some guys need some merchant help.

so we buy it for 50$
mapp is 120$
we have a + of 70$
with this 70$ + we need to calculate all our cost (tax, rent, workes, energy ....)

so you example with contenders
asking price 120$
buying price 90
+ 30$ can't work, because it can't cover the lcs costs!
the buying price is in the 50-60$ area not 90$

the buying price from any manufacturer is under 50% of the asking price.
I am glad you know how the shoe industry works but until you have an account with a sports card distributor do not guess how the pricing works. I know for a fact the lowest cost for a box direct as a preorder of Prizm was 75. MAPP WAS 100 A BOX. The only product in recent releases that commanded the markup your talking about and that was UD retro, and that was manipulated by the UD AIRs.
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Old 01-27-2013, 09:56 AM   #37 (permalink)
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I am glad you know how the shoe industry works but until you have an account with a sports card distributor do not guess how the pricing works. I know for a fact the lowest cost for a box direct as a preorder of Prizm was 75. MAPP WAS 100 A BOX. The only product in recent releases that commanded the markup your talking about and that was UD retro, and that was manipulated by the UD AIRs.

well if that is whow the card industry works, than it makes no sense to run a lcs or resell box/cases anyway. any industry where you have to pay 75% of the mapp price has no sense if you calculate the costs you have to run a store.
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Old 01-27-2013, 12:52 PM   #38 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by zebrastar View Post
This is great news for Blowout, since they are the largest seller of product they should be able to operate off the smallest margins...
This news only mentions HOBBY SHOPS, not online dealers. Unitil I see more I will assume those who sell online will need to be at a certain price.
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Old 01-27-2013, 01:05 PM   #39 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Frankp2311 View Post
This news only mentions HOBBY SHOPS, not online dealers. Unitil I see more I will assume those who sell online will need to be at a certain price.
You're right, I didn't pick up on that on my first read through on their blog. Going along with that thought, Blowout has yet to change any of their post National Treasures Baseball products products prices. Maybe this isn't as bad as I thought and goes along with their commitment to hobby shops.
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Old 01-27-2013, 02:48 PM   #40 (permalink)
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For what's it worth there is 1 LCS near me that actually sells nearly EVERYTHING below online prices. He charges 5-10 less per box, if you pay by credit he marks it up 3% to cover his cost, no sales tax charged (which I'm sure is sort of illegal ) but my point is if this guy can sell stuff at that price and STILL make money, than what is everyone else doing wrong when they claim they can't compete?
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Old 01-27-2013, 02:48 PM   #41 (permalink)
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This news only mentions HOBBY SHOPS, not online dealers. Unitil I see more I will assume those who sell online will need to be at a certain price.
Look around.
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Old 01-27-2013, 04:39 PM   #42 (permalink)
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Look around.
What am I looking for???
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Old 01-27-2013, 05:08 PM   #43 (permalink)
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For what's it worth there is 1 LCS near me that actually sells nearly EVERYTHING below online prices. He charges 5-10 less per box, if you pay by credit he marks it up 3% to cover his cost, no sales tax charged (which I'm sure is sort of illegal ) but my point is if this guy can sell stuff at that price and STILL make money, than what is everyone else doing wrong when they claim they can't compete?
He must be moving quite a bit, there's not that much money to be made!
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Old 01-27-2013, 08:32 PM   #44 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by phil View Post
i don't know what factory cost was but the local distributor that sells to LCS's here is $92 on contenders.
where do you get your information?

Last edited by buckeyeforlife; 01-27-2013 at 08:38 PM.
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Old 01-28-2013, 10:19 AM   #45 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Frankp2311 View Post
This news only mentions HOBBY SHOPS, not online dealers.


noticed ATL sportscards has presell cases below MAPP. assume blowout will follow at some point.
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Old 01-28-2013, 10:42 AM   #46 (permalink)
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noticed ATL sportscards has presell cases below MAPP. assume blowout will follow at some point.
Or maybe they assume ot applies to them when it doesnt. Panini tried to help the shops out and if they drop the program completely it wont help brick and mortar stores. Letting the LCS sell at their own price and keeping online dealers at a MAPP makes sense to me in terms of what is good for the shops.
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Old 01-28-2013, 11:15 AM   #47 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Frankp2311 View Post
Or maybe they assume ot applies to them when it doesnt. Panini tried to help the shops out and if they drop the program completely it wont help brick and mortar stores. Letting the LCS sell at their own price and keeping online dealers at a MAPP makes sense to me in terms of what is good for the shops.

it won't change Panini's bottom line much if they stick to MAPP for online sellers. the large majority of people who preorder want to do it online and don't want to or aren't able to preorder through an LCS. i don't live within 100 miles of an LCS.
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Old 01-28-2013, 11:23 AM   #48 (permalink)
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when you think about it that wouldn't even make sense, since LCS's weren't really being constrained by MAPP in the first place. dropping MAPP for LCS's and keeping it for everyone else would change almost nothing.
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Old 01-28-2013, 11:35 AM   #49 (permalink)
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i don't know what blowout would do in this case, but I know D&A has a presell price guarantee to refund if the price drops before release. if they dropped prices on currently listed presells they would have to do some refunding, so it wouldn't surprise me if they stuck to MAPP on stuff that was already up for that reason.
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Old 01-28-2013, 11:36 AM   #50 (permalink)
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[QUOTE=lennox.p;4119223]how do you know what lcs owner have to pay for their items? the price depends on the number you buy from them, so the prices are lower than we think. most products retailer sell have an increase of 100-120% of the buying price. for example we buy shoes from nike 50$ a piece and charge 120$ in store, wich is the mapp from nike. after some time we are able to give discounts for them, by the end to get rid of them we do 50% off the original mapp so still with 50% off we have 10$ + what we paid for them. i think some guys need some merchant help.

so we buy it for 50$
mapp is 120$
we have a + of 70$
with this 70$ + we need to calculate all our cost (tax, rent, workes, energy ....)

so you example with contenders
asking price 120$
buying price 90
+ 30$ can't work, because it can't cover the lcs costs!
the buying price is in the 50-60$ area not 90$

the buying price from any manufacturer is under 50% of the asking price.

[QUOTE]

This is not how it works with wax. Direct cost from Panini for a Contenders basketball case comes out to 90/box. Possibly Blowout gets a little extra discount since they order a ton of cases. But for the average LCS that orders the 1 case that Panini allows them to order direct, it is 90/box with MAPP pricing at $120.

The markup on wax is completely different than Nike shoes. Not every industry is the same.

The small markups on wax is the reason why a LCS struggles if they only specialize in wax.
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