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Old 01-28-2013, 11:41 AM   #51 (permalink)
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LCS has agreement with Panini to have MAPP. If they don't follow, panini has the right NOT to sell any boxes/cases to this LCS. It is just that, most local collectors don't bother to report this issue.
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Old 01-28-2013, 11:45 AM   #52 (permalink)
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LCS has agreement with Panini to have MAPP. If they don't follow, panini has the right NOT to sell any boxes/cases to this LCS. It is just that, most local collectors don't bother to report this issue.
Why would a collector report a LCS for selling them a product below MAPP pricing? MAPP pricing does not set a maximum price that a product can be sold at. It just sets the minimum advertised price. If a product has a MAPP price of $140, a LCS can price it at $140, 150, or even $200 if they wanted. They just can't advertise it at $139 or below.
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Old 01-28-2013, 11:51 AM   #53 (permalink)
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LCS has agreement with Panini to have MAPP. If they don't follow, panini has the right NOT to sell any boxes/cases to this LCS. It is just that, most local collectors don't bother to report this issue.

has anyone ever heard of an LCS being cut off for underselling MAPP? seems to me like they have been free all along to sell (in store) for whatever they want without any threat of consequence. obviously they couldn't dump new stuff on ebay, but not many LCS's were doing that anyway.
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Old 01-28-2013, 12:00 PM   #54 (permalink)
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Why would a collector report a LCS for selling them a product below MAPP pricing? MAPP pricing does not set a maximum price that a product can be sold at. It just sets the minimum advertised price. If a product has a MAPP price of $140, a LCS can price it at $140, 150, or even $200 if they wanted. They just can't advertise it at $139 or below.
What I said is that, MAPP may sound "fair". However, in reality, there are many LCS willing to sell below MAPP even they know they are breaking the agreement with Panini. For hot products (like certified), LCS would mark up the price to earn extra money. For bad products, they want to sell it quickly to get the cash back (even if they have to earn less on profit). In the end, the LCS that follows Panini pricing guideline is in disadvanage.
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Old 01-28-2013, 12:06 PM   #55 (permalink)
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has anyone ever heard of an LCS being cut off for underselling MAPP? seems to me like they have been free all along to sell (in store) for whatever they want without any threat of consequence. obviously they couldn't dump new stuff on ebay, but not many LCS's were doing that anyway.
I'm don't know if there is warning or something. However, if the LCS continues to undercut the MAPP, eventually, someone will say something stupid in forum "I got this box for $50 instead of MAPP $80 from ABC sport card from City,State".

Anyway, MAPP pushs the cost to collectors while keeping poor running business around. And like someone above mentioned, online seller gives free shipping. I don't even need to pay for gas to pick up boxes.
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Old 01-28-2013, 12:23 PM   #56 (permalink)
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I'm don't know if there is warning or something. However, if the LCS continues to undercut the MAPP, eventually, someone will say something stupid in forum "I got this box for $50 instead of MAPP $80 from ABC sport card from City,State".

Anyway, MAPP pushs the cost to collectors while keeping poor running business around. And like someone above mentioned, online seller gives free shipping. I don't even need to pay for gas to pick up boxes.
MAPP pricing isn't pushing a huge cost onto collectors. Shops are only making $30 on a $140 sale. If a shop had to pay $50 for a box and Panini set MAPP at $140, that would be pushing the cost onto the collector. But all MAPP pricing was doing was trying to give the LCS a $30 profit on a $140 sale.

Panini needs to make better products at a better price. Or they just need to find a way to lower the cost of the garbage they are already putting out. All Panini cares about is their bottom line.

I don't see why Panini thinks getting rid of MAPP pricing will increase pre-orders. Most of their products drop in price. A shop can just wait until a week after release and pick up a product under direct cost.
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Old 01-28-2013, 12:31 PM   #57 (permalink)
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MAPP pricing isn't pushing a huge cost onto collectors. Shops are only making $30 on a $140 sale. If a shop had to pay $50 for a box and Panini set MAPP at $140, that would be pushing the cost onto the collector. But all MAPP pricing was doing was trying to give the LCS a $30 profit on a $140 sale.

Panini needs to make better products at a better price. Or they just need to find a way to lower the cost of the garbage they are already putting out. All Panini cares about is their bottom line.

I don't see why Panini thinks getting rid of MAPP pricing will increase pre-orders. Most of their products drop in price. A shop can just wait until a week after release and pick up a product under direct cost.
For good business, LCS owner knows what product can sell and what can't during pre-order phase. However, with MAPP, this leaves no option for smart LCS owner to sell quick to regroup the cash back. I'm sure no LCS owners want to sit $10K on cheap Panini products as boxes/cases. The money can easily free up if there is no MAPP by undercut the price. Then the money can be used to invest other hotter products.

I agree that Panini makes too many crappy products that hurt LCS. If LCS can sell retail Prizm, I'm sure no LCS will cry about not making money. Panini really needs to make more LCS-only products (card that you can't buy from online distrubition)
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Old 01-28-2013, 12:36 PM   #58 (permalink)
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I'm don't know if there is warning or something. However, if the LCS continues to undercut the MAPP, eventually, someone will say something stupid in forum "I got this box for $50 instead of MAPP $80 from ABC sport card from City,State".

Anyway, MAPP pushs the cost to collectors while keeping poor running business around. And like someone above mentioned, online seller gives free shipping. I don't even need to pay for gas to pick up boxes.
People all the time talk about how they get boxes at their LCS for below MAPP pricing. The only way Panini could really catch a LCS doing this is to send in one of their guys to buy a product, and even then it would be difficult. A lot of stores probably only sell below MAPP to regulars or people they know and trust.

Also I have a very hard time buying any wax from online. Just paranoid about weighing and resealing and all that jazz. I like watching a fresh case opened and picking my boxes right there. I know you could go up the chain and say people are weighing cases, but I'm not even sure that would give you any insight into which case is better than another.
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Old 01-28-2013, 12:37 PM   #59 (permalink)
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at first i hated MAPP. but now i began to understand why its in place after talking to my dealer, and I understood and liked it a bit, now they drop it. ha
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Old 01-28-2013, 12:42 PM   #60 (permalink)
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People all the time talk about how they get boxes at their LCS for below MAPP pricing. The only way Panini could really catch a LCS doing this is to send in one of their guys to buy a product, and even then it would be difficult. A lot of stores probably only sell below MAPP to regulars or people they know and trust.

Also I have a very hard time buying any wax from online. Just paranoid about weighing and resealing and all that jazz. I like watching a fresh case opened and picking my boxes right there. I know you could go up the chain and say people are weighing cases, but I'm not even sure that would give you any insight into which case is better than another.
I think if my LCS is a better place (or cleaner place), I would go there more often and enjoys my break. However, there are 5 LCS around my place. All of them are running very poor. Dusk is everywhere. 91-92 Hoops pack are on the shelf for $3 a pack. I really can't support the notion of MAPP due to my experience on these 5 LCSs. I really can't give my money to poor run business for their profit.
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Old 01-28-2013, 12:55 PM   #61 (permalink)
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MAAP pricing is not a bad thing if Panini is making decent products. But when the product is crap, LCS cant get rid of them with a lower price. I think LCS's probably want to sell timeless teasures at 70-80 a box now instead of 100.
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Old 01-28-2013, 12:58 PM   #62 (permalink)
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lets take prizm as an example, i know that if you buy prizm from the manufacturer directly, they make you buy some of their crap too. they won't just sell you their good stuff. so many LCS' decide to go to an intermediary distributor. So let's say Prizm was $75 from Panini, the distributor will sell the LCS' a box for $81 and they don't have to also buy the crappy Panini products. Topps is notorious for this btw, you can't just buy all Topps Jumbo, if they are gonna sell you a case of that you're buying a few boxes of retail or something like that. So these LCS' generally will sell at MAPP prices say $100 and in theory BO or DA are supposed to sell at the same evenign the playing field.

The problem is, some LCS' would do a lot better they can sell at $95 and beat the online prices, or sell large quantities to their good customers at lesser prices and then keep their price at $110 for regular customers (prices at releases btw, not now, lol).

So now in theory without MAPP, nobody should be able to sell for less than the big distributors. However, its all BS. Half the online sites didn't folow MAPP, I know because I bought from them. And for sure LCS' sold at less than MAPP, its all over this forum.

So my guess is in the end it won't make a difference but I have been told LCS' are still disappointed.

So MAPP in theory
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Old 01-28-2013, 01:10 PM   #63 (permalink)
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lets take prizm as an example, i know that if you buy prizm from the manufacturer directly, they make you buy some of their crap too. they won't just sell you their good stuff. so many LCS' decide to go to an intermediary distributor. So let's say Prizm was $75 from Panini, the distributor will sell the LCS' a box for $81 and they don't have to also buy the crappy Panini products. Topps is notorious for this btw, you can't just buy all Topps Jumbo, if they are gonna sell you a case of that you're buying a few boxes of retail or something like that. So these LCS' generally will sell at MAPP prices say $100 and in theory BO or DA are supposed to sell at the same evenign the playing field.

The problem is, some LCS' would do a lot better they can sell at $95 and beat the online prices, or sell large quantities to their good customers at lesser prices and then keep their price at $110 for regular customers (prices at releases btw, not now, lol).

So now in theory without MAPP, nobody should be able to sell for less than the big distributors. However, its all BS. Half the online sites didn't folow MAPP, I know because I bought from them. And for sure LCS' sold at less than MAPP, its all over this forum.

So my guess is in the end it won't make a difference but I have been told LCS' are still disappointed.

So MAPP in theory


The only big advantage a LCS has over an online store is you can have the product the same day you pay for it. With a LCS you don't have to wait 2-3 days to receive it in the mail. That's why a LCS shouldn't have to beat online prices.

You did not have to buy any of the "crap" products to buy prizm from Panini. Same goes for National Treasures and their other products. But Topps does make you buy regular topps in order to buy Jumbos direct.
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Old 01-28-2013, 01:38 PM   #64 (permalink)
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The only big advantage a LCS has over an online store is you can have the product the same day you pay for it. With a LCS you don't have to wait 2-3 days to receive it in the mail. That's why a LCS shouldn't have to beat online prices.

You did not have to buy any of the "crap" products to buy prizm from Panini. Same goes for National Treasures and their other products. But Topps does make you buy regular topps in order to buy Jumbos direct.
Yea, I think we are on the same page. I don't own a store so I don't know exactly which require you to buy the crap, but yea. I guess though it really didn't seem like MAPP was hurting the stores too much and I don't think it will now. It would appear it should, but these online stores will prices their boxes as they will and the LCS' will have to make decision about whether to beat, match or sell for more.
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Old 01-28-2013, 01:38 PM   #65 (permalink)
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The only big advantage a LCS has over an online store is you can have the product the same day you pay for it. With a LCS you don't have to wait 2-3 days to receive it in the mail. That's why a LCS shouldn't have to beat online prices.

You did not have to buy any of the "crap" products to buy prizm from Panini. Same goes for National Treasures and their other products. But Topps does make you buy regular topps in order to buy Jumbos direct.
UD had the same thing in place back in the days.

In order to get Exquisite you had to buy x number of SPA. In order to get SPA you had to buy x number of UD regular.
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Old 01-29-2013, 04:32 AM   #66 (permalink)
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Guys looks like BO already drop prices on several presell and current panini box/cases.
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Old 01-29-2013, 08:56 AM   #67 (permalink)
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I haven't seen if the MAPP pricing policy affects all Panini authorized accounts as they break it down to online retailers/show dealers/card breakers too.

And it may have been mentioned but I didn't actually see it, MAPP only refers to the advertised price, not what price the product was actually being sold for.

"MAPP pricing ONLY pertains to the advertised price of the product. It has nothing to do with the price at which you sell the product."

Quoted from a distributor website.
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Old 01-29-2013, 09:42 AM   #68 (permalink)
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Guys looks like BO already drop prices on several presell and current panini box/cases.
Heres the real question now...

If online sellers drop prices, what happens to the guy who would have gone to a B&M shop to buy his wax? Does he now shop online because its cheaper while the B&M shop takes a loss?

MAPP was there to protect the B&M business. Soon enough theyll end up closing up shop and the only place to buy your wax will be online. What happens when they control the whole market and decide price increases are due at any given time?

You end up paying just as much if not more. The only difference is, you only have one outlet of gtting it!!
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Old 01-29-2013, 09:58 AM   #69 (permalink)
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Heres the real question now...

If online sellers drop prices, what happens to the guy who would have gone to a B&M shop to buy his wax? Does he now shop online because its cheaper while the B&M shop takes a loss?

MAPP was there to protect the B&M business. Soon enough theyll end up closing up shop and the only place to buy your wax will be online. What happens when they control the whole market and decide price increases are due at any given time?

You end up paying just as much if not more. The only difference is, you only have one outlet of gtting it!!
First, it is very unlikely to have all LCS going out of business. MAPP helps those poor running business to survive. Good LCSs actually have fans.

Second, there are at least 5 big online stores that sell boxes/cases. It is unlikely to have 4 goes down and 1 survive.

Lastly, even if only 1 surives and the price goes up, there are people willing to invest into this industry and open a new online store. The business cycle continues.
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Old 01-29-2013, 10:04 AM   #70 (permalink)
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Heres the real question now...

If online sellers drop prices, what happens to the guy who would have gone to a B&M shop to buy his wax? Does he now shop online because its cheaper while the B&M shop takes a loss?

MAPP was there to protect the B&M business. Soon enough theyll end up closing up shop and the only place to buy your wax will be online. What happens when they control the whole market and decide price increases are due at any given time?

You end up paying just as much if not more. The only difference is, you only have one outlet of gtting it!!
I only got back into cards due to finding a store that took care of me and really went the extra mile to keep me coming. Guy gives me pretty good prices on wax, sells my extra hits I don't want for me on eBay, does giveaways, and lets you put things on credit against cards you get. If he were to ever close up shop, I think I would be done with cards. Buying on eBay is okay, but it's just not as fun to me as opening boxes. And I do this for fun, not prospecting or looking to flip cards for profit. Nothing wrong with doing that at all, it's just not why I'm in it. Hearing stories about online places weighing boxes and things like that have steered me clear of shopping online for wax.
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Old 01-29-2013, 11:41 AM   #71 (permalink)
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Heres the real question now...

If online sellers drop prices, what happens to the guy who would have gone to a B&M shop to buy his wax? Does he now shop online because its cheaper while the B&M shop takes a loss?

MAPP was there to protect the B&M business. Soon enough theyll end up closing up shop and the only place to buy your wax will be online. What happens when they control the whole market and decide price increases are due at any given time?

You end up paying just as much if not more. The only difference is, you only have one outlet of gtting it!!
I don't think so. I think you're right that the intent was to protect the B&M's but I don't think it relaistically works that way. DAcards, BO, all these guys drop prices if you are a consistent customer form the price you see on their website. On the other side of town, most good LCS' also do the same and sell to you under MAPP anyway. So if everyone is breaking MAPP the avg obiding LCS is kinda screwed because people will just buy online... or if they buy from the LCS, they were gonna buy their anyway bc they are older or younger or don't use online sites.

Anyway, there is a store called Rookies & Stars in central Jersey. I went there one day becasue I was up in that area. They have cards i see on ebay all the time. They were selling boxes for like $30 bucks over ebay prices and most solid LCS'. Those stores deserve to be out of business anyway so if they go, they go... although I generally support a good LCS.
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Old 01-29-2013, 06:10 PM   #72 (permalink)
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dasiegel, i agree with you
however, some LCS are using this MAPP as an excuse of not able to sell lower...
now they cannot use this excuse anymore, it s a free market, and they have to compete with everyone else to give us (customer) their best price
so it s good for us, I guess ?

BO already drop their pre sell prices on most cases/boxes
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Old 01-29-2013, 06:42 PM   #73 (permalink)
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I don't think so. I think you're right that the intent was to protect the B&M's but I don't think it relaistically works that way. DAcards, BO, all these guys drop prices if you are a consistent customer form the price you see on their website. On the other side of town, most good LCS' also do the same and sell to you under MAPP anyway. So if everyone is breaking MAPP the avg obiding LCS is kinda screwed because people will just buy online... or if they buy from the LCS, they were gonna buy their anyway bc they are older or younger or don't use online sites.

Anyway, there is a store called Rookies & Stars in central Jersey. I went there one day becasue I was up in that area. They have cards i see on ebay all the time. They were selling boxes for like $30 bucks over ebay prices and most solid LCS'. Those stores deserve to be out of business anyway so if they go, they go... although I generally support a good LCS.
But unlike actual B&M shops, online retailers dont have to expense heavy overhead costs like shops do. Those overhead costs cannot be maintained by selling a few bucks above their actual cost.

Im not for or against MAPP. I just happen to see the practical use behind price integrity to compete. Same way tariffs work in countries. China could easily sell you product X for $1 vs an american made product for $5. But tariffs are put in place to protect the american manufacturer so he is able to still compete. All im saying is it works in cases.
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Old 01-29-2013, 06:45 PM   #74 (permalink)
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Funny how Panini dropped MAPP but Prizm Football is $119.99 a box pre-sale... I understand the market for this product is hot and mainly hype, but c'mon raising the price $20 more a box BEFORE the product releases? Not cool.
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Old 01-29-2013, 06:45 PM   #75 (permalink)
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dasiegel, i agree with you
however, some LCS are using this MAPP as an excuse of not able to sell lower...
now they cannot use this excuse anymore, it s a free market, and they have to compete with everyone else to give us (customer) their best price
so it s good for us, I guess ?

BO already drop their pre sell prices on most cases/boxes
How can you compete with online when they have nowhere near as much overhead? Most people have trusted case breakers they go to, Chris seemingly has the YouTube breaker market cornered, and sometimes singles can only get you so far. Plus online retailers move more product since they have a greater amount of people they can sell to. I don't think MAPP was the answer to helping a LCS because in the end, it was mostly overpriced stuff being put out there. What I did think was a good idea was to give the LCS a week jump on products over online retailers. I know this sucks for those without a LCS in the area, but it could also help motivate people into opening a business in their area.

Also Panini should be wanting to help out LCS. If you have Dave and Adam's, Blowout, and a few other large retailers, if makes you, as a company, hostage to their demands. May be good for us due to having a better product out there at a lower cost, but on Panini's side, it would suck. Their profits could be hurt if a lot of LCS go out of business. So I think they are still trying to work with the LCS to come up with a solution that everyone is happy with.

Just my two cents, may not be right on all fronts, but this is how I've been thinking about it.
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