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View Poll Results: Cracking Graded Cards To Re-Sell Ok??
Yes 160 75.83%
No 51 24.17%
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Old 04-26-2013, 11:18 AM   #226 (permalink)
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Well, it seems people are calling him a liar and he is just finding reason to back out. If there was no damage or back history on the card, he would probably do the same.



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Originally Posted by Orangejello727 View Post
Here is a high end buyer who puts a ton of emphasis on the condition of the card.

Check out the feedback he leaves people when he gets a card that is NOT in the condition he expects it to be in

eBay Feedback Profile for wegotstock99

This is a prime example of why selling high end ungraded cards is a two way street. More headaches then you realize in the long run.
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Old 04-26-2013, 11:22 AM   #227 (permalink)
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Well, it seems people are calling him a liar and he is just finding reason to back out. If there was no damage or back history on the card, he would probably do the same.


I doubt he is a liar,the dude has a lot of money.He purchased a $600 card from me on the forums and paid instantly.He buys a lot of high end cards,when you pay a lot of money for something you expect a fair return.Notice the sellers were listing "Mint+++" Or not describing the condition on the listings?His expectations as a buyer were not met
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Old 04-26-2013, 11:24 AM   #228 (permalink)
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Actually, there are many places with the different definition of "material". Even your definition, what is significant? 1.96 standard deviations away from the mean? If a raw card is sold for $110, and a BGS 8.5 is sold for $100, is it significant?

Even within the same industry, material can have very different meaning.
Material to the whole, not to the individual. I can say with some certainty this this hobby considers card condition important.
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Old 04-26-2013, 11:26 AM   #229 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Orangejello727 View Post
Here is a high end buyer who puts a ton of emphasis on the condition of the card.

Check out the feedback he leaves people when he gets a card that is NOT in the condition he expects it to be in

eBay Feedback Profile for wegotstock99

This is a prime example of why selling high end ungraded cards is a two way street. More headaches then you realize in the long run.
Lots of transactions, but rarely takes the time to identify the good apples. That is unfortunate. I like the honesty of the negatives, but I wish the buyer rewarded quality sellers with feedback.
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Old 04-26-2013, 11:35 AM   #230 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Orangejello727 View Post
Here is a high end buyer who puts a ton of emphasis on the condition of the card.

Check out the feedback he leaves people when he gets a card that is NOT in the condition he expects it to be in

eBay Feedback Profile for wegotstock99

This is a prime example of why selling high end ungraded cards is a two way street. More headaches then you realize in the long run.
I clicked on this auction that he won.
Kobe Bryant Refractor Auto 5 5 on Card Auto Only 5 Made Mint Cond | eBay

The card was called MINT+ in the listing. First of all, the seller is completely wrong for over grading the card. That is a card that would most likely grade an 7-8 due to the corners and should have been called "Near Mint due to touches on the bottom corners and edge".

As a buyer, if I see a card is listed as MINT+ and I was very picky w/ condition, I would look over the zoom scans very closely before purchasing. In the scans you can clearly see its not MINT+ like the seller states.

The seller is still at fault for misrepresenting the card. But buyers need to also realize that most sellers are idiots when it comes to grading a card and they need to check over cards carefully w/zoom.
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Old 04-26-2013, 11:35 AM   #231 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by penny1fan View Post
I doubt he is a liar,the dude has a lot of money.He purchased a $600 card from me on the forums and paid instantly.He buys a lot of high end cards,when you pay a lot of money for something you expect a fair return.Notice the sellers were listing "Mint+++" Or not describing the condition on the listings?His expectations as a buyer were not met
Ok that's fair but we can't say the sellers in these cases are withholding information. Their interpretations are just probably off and this buyer has higher than normal expectations when it comes to wanting accurate descriptions.

I've seen many auctions with the description just telling people to look at the picture. Assuming the card was not previously graded and there was no backstory on it, would you prefer sellers not saying anything or giving their own interpretation on the card if they truly believe what they're saying? Of course it could be different than what the buyer thinks...
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Old 04-26-2013, 11:41 AM   #232 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by fullmetal View Post
Material to the whole, not to the individual. I can say with some certainty this this hobby considers card condition important.
I know card condition is important, but what is the impact of the sale due to the card condition? Card condition only fits the first part of your definition, not much of the second part. That's why "material" is hard to put a fix definition.

BGS 8.5 and a raw card has very small difference on pricing. The outcome is very insignificant. BGS 9 to BGS 10 has very large difference. The scale for BGS is linear, but the pricing is exponential.
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Old 04-26-2013, 11:46 AM   #233 (permalink)
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Ok that's fair but we can't say the sellers in these cases are withholding information. Their interpretations are just probably off and this buyer has higher than normal expectations when it comes to wanting accurate descriptions.

I've seen many auctions with the description just telling people to look at the picture. Assuming the card was not previously graded and there was no backstory on it, would you prefer sellers not saying anything or giving their own interpretation on the card if they truly believe what they're saying? Of course it could be different than what the buyer thinks...
All I expect is complete honesty out of a seller,If he/she knows something I should know I expect that information.I don't mind a seller listing the condition as long as it is an accurate description.Also good pictures (no cropped) help out a lot.

A mixture of both but ultimately - Honesty is all I need as a buyer.
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Old 04-26-2013, 12:07 PM   #234 (permalink)
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I clicked on this auction that he won.
Kobe Bryant Refractor Auto 5 5 on Card Auto Only 5 Made Mint Cond | eBay

The card was called MINT+ in the listing. First of all, the seller is completely wrong for over grading the card. That is a card that would most likely grade an 7-8 due to the corners and should have been called "Near Mint due to touches on the bottom corners and edge".

As a buyer, if I see a card is listed as MINT+ and I was very picky w/ condition, I would look over the zoom scans very closely before purchasing. In the scans you can clearly see its not MINT+ like the seller states.

The seller is still at fault for misrepresenting the card. But buyers need to also realize that most sellers are idiots when it comes to grading a card and they need to check over cards carefully w/zoom.
This is the issue in a majority of the cases. FullMetal has stated previously that the sellers are tardy with listing and use vague descprtion (whether in error or in negligent matter) to save time or whatever else.

I can sit here and say confidently that the majority of cards listed with conditions by sellers for raw cards are either wrong, overgraded to achieve more $$ or just made up because the seller doesnt care.

Im guilty of it. Ive done this in the past, whereby I have listed a generic vague description "All cards are Nrmnt-Mnt unless otherwise stated". Though all cards I sold were be great shape with no visible flaws. Its that vague description that leads to returns, non loyal buyers and headaches.

Putting that aside, the main concern here is busting a BGS case to sell the idea of getting more $$ for a card offering a cards under the guise of being in a condition better than it really is.
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Old 04-26-2013, 12:12 PM   #235 (permalink)
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I know card condition is important, but what is the impact of the sale due to the card condition? Card condition only fits the first part of your definition, not much of the second part. That's why "material" is hard to put a fix definition.

BGS 8.5 and a raw card has very small difference on pricing. The outcome is very insignificant. BGS 9 to BGS 10 has very large difference. The scale for BGS is linear, but the pricing is exponential.

BGS 8.5 Kobe chrome $199

BGS 8 5 Kobe Bryant 1996 97 Topps Chrome 138 Lakers Rookie RC 5 from 9 Mint | eBay


Raw $255
1996 97 Kobe Bryant Topps Chrome Rookie Card RC 138 Centered Los Angeles Lakers | eBay


Raw $310
Kobe Bryant 1996 97 Topps Chrome Rookie RC 138 Los Angeles Lakers | eBay


Im willing to bet that if that BGS 8.5 is cracked out of case, it can fetch more money as raw then graded 8.5. Not because of condition. But solely based on the sellers description of noting that it could grade very well eventhough the seller knows FULL WELL it was a BGS 8.5. The notion is to "upsell" the card to be something we already know it is not!
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Old 04-26-2013, 12:16 PM   #236 (permalink)
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But isn't that the risk of buying raw?

Anyone buying a raw card and expecting a 9 or even a 9.5 is just crazy
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Old 04-26-2013, 12:19 PM   #237 (permalink)
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But isn't that the risk of buying raw?

Anyone buying a raw card and expecting a 9 or even a 9.5 is just crazy
But is it raw? Or being sold as raw to upsell to make it seem like a possible 9 or 9.5 knowing full well it isnt.

Its like returning a leased car to the dealership with a gasket blown. You can go buy a $12 pellet that seals the gasket as a temp fix then return it under the guise 'there is nothing wrong". But once in hand it leaks, what then? Buyer beware?

Ethics in integrity and being honest. Some have it and some dont! Thats the jist of it!
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Old 04-26-2013, 12:23 PM   #238 (permalink)
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Where did Paul go? Would love some more explanations from a seller standpoint who practices this method??

Maybe he is yet another member who loves to dish it out and pile on others?

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Old 04-26-2013, 12:26 PM   #239 (permalink)
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Where did Paul go? Would love some more explanations from a seller standpoint who practices this method??

Maybe he is yet another member who loves to dish it out and pile on others?

Seriously? This only supports his comments that you are trolling him.
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Old 04-26-2013, 12:27 PM   #240 (permalink)
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Seriously? This only supports his comments that you are trolling him.
Trolling him? this is my thread homeboy
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Old 04-26-2013, 12:28 PM   #241 (permalink)
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But is it raw? Or being sold as raw to upsell to make it seem like a possible 9 or 9.5 knowing full well it isnt.

Its like returning a leased car to the dealership with a gasket blown. You can go buy a $12 pellet that seals the gasket as a temp fix then return it under the guise 'there is nothing wrong". But once in hand it leaks, what then? Buyer beware?

Ethics in integrity and being honest. Some have it and some dont! Thats the jist of it!
Earlier when we were talking about a card coming back trimmed, then resubmitting it and it getting a BGS 9. You said something like "all that matters is that it's now a BGS 9". Why can't that reasoning work for a card cracked out of a BGS holder? It's raw now, why isn't that all that matters?

Just asking because I may have misunderstood your post about "all that matters is its a BGS 9 now".
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Old 04-26-2013, 12:29 PM   #242 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Orangejello727 View Post
But is it raw? Or being sold as raw to upsell to make it seem like a possible 9 or 9.5 knowing full well it isnt.

Its like returning a leased car to the dealership with a gasket blown. You can go buy a $12 pellet that seals the gasket as a temp fix then return it under the guise 'there is nothing wrong". But once in hand it leaks, what then? Buyer beware?

Ethics in integrity and being honest. Some have it and some dont! Thats the jist of it!
I understand that, but it comes with the territory. Its not a perfect world.

People want peace of mind, they buy graded or new. Its why there is a premium on that.

A ton of cards get "bumped", so which grade do you tell the buyer? The higher or the lower grade?
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Old 04-26-2013, 12:29 PM   #243 (permalink)
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Trolling him? this is my thread homeboy
All I'm saying is you are coming off as a stalker. This is coming from someone who doesn't have any bias towards either of you.
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Old 04-26-2013, 12:30 PM   #244 (permalink)
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BGS 8.5 Kobe chrome $199

BGS 8 5 Kobe Bryant 1996 97 Topps Chrome 138 Lakers Rookie RC 5 from 9 Mint | eBay


Raw $255
1996 97 Kobe Bryant Topps Chrome Rookie Card RC 138 Centered Los Angeles Lakers | eBay


Raw $310
Kobe Bryant 1996 97 Topps Chrome Rookie RC 138 Los Angeles Lakers | eBay


Im willing to bet that if that BGS 8.5 is cracked out of case, it can fetch more money as raw then graded 8.5. Not because of condition. But solely based on the sellers description of noting that it could grade very well eventhough the seller knows FULL WELL it was a BGS 8.5. The notion is to "upsell" the card to be something we already know it is not!
In your 3 cases, wouldn't be the problem on the buyer rather than on the seller? Someone would bid more on a green kobe than a clean copy of BGS 8.5.

And I said it before. The "Near mint or better" is a sale pinch. BGS 8.5 is a hard fact. You can't sell it with "or better". On the other hand, for a raw card, most people would put "Near mint or better" as to cover themselves AND to sell better. To me, "Near mint or better" is NOT an accurate description. Whoever put it there in the listing (including myself) is because we are lazy, and don't want to get into detail of exam the card at 100% effort.
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Old 04-26-2013, 12:34 PM   #245 (permalink)
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All I'm saying is you are coming off as a stalker. This is coming from someone who doesn't have any bias towards either of you.
Stalker? absolutely not ... This thread was not even about him until he came in here all defensive and tried making it about him.There was never a call out period,Some members such as himself play the high and mighty card while attacking/piling on others while kicking them when they are down.Do I feel sorry for this dime duping con artist? Hell no! Simply asking for some more input from someone who does what the (38) voted against.I think that is fair ... no?
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Old 04-26-2013, 12:38 PM   #246 (permalink)
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In your 3 cases, wouldn't be the problem on the buyer rather than on the seller? Someone would bid more on a green kobe than a clean copy of BGS 8.5.

And I said it before. The "Near mint or better" is a sale pinch. BGS 8.5 is a hard fact. You can't sell it with "or better". On the other hand, for a raw card, most people would put "Near mint or better" as to cover themselves AND to sell better. To me, "Near mint or better" is NOT an accurate description. Whoever put it there in the listing (including myself) is because we are lazy, and don't want to get into detail of exam the card at 100% effort.
I also use "or better" in my listings. I don't see there being a need to point out something like light chipping on an edge that can easily be seen in a scan on a modern day card that is typically at least NM-MT out of the pack. Now if its vintage where there can be a light crease or something not noticeable in the scan, then I definitely point that out.
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Old 04-26-2013, 12:43 PM   #247 (permalink)
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Stalker? absolutely not ... This thread was not even about him until he came in here all defensive and tried making it about him.There was never a call out period,Some members such as himself play the high and mighty card while attacking/piling on others while kicking them when they are down.Do I feel sorry for this dime duping con artist? Hell no! Simply asking for some more input from someone who does what the (38) voted against.I think that is fair ... no?
You aren't just asking for his input, you posted a picture of a guy screaming Paul's name.

Sure there are 38 against it, but there are 130 who don't have an issue with it *as long as the cards condition is accurately described in the auction*
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Old 04-26-2013, 12:46 PM   #248 (permalink)
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Earlier when we were talking about a card coming back trimmed, then resubmitting it and it getting a BGS 9. You said something like "all that matters is that it's now a BGS 9". Why can't that reasoning work for a card cracked out of a BGS holder? It's raw now, why isn't that all that matters?

Just asking because I may have misunderstood your post about "all that matters is its a BGS 9 now".
What I meant with that comment was...

If it was left raw and the note was trimmed, it can be sold at a raw card with the note of it being trimmed.

If that same card was resubmitting and came back BGS 9, then selling it as a BGS 9 is the way to go about it.

There is no set standard, I agree, But there as to be some sort of informal guideline to follow. It seems to be that the industiry itself accepts BGS and PSA as a guideline to professional grading.

In that specfic case its more than likely the inital grade of trimmed was in error and the BGS 9 was the fix. Or opposite and the trim was correct and the BGS 9 was in error. Either way one or the other is noted. This is more for isolated cases than the average and norm.

I dont think it can work for a card busted out of a case. Its not as if a BGS 5 can be busted out and sold as "possible Nr-Mnt" or under the guise of possibly being Mint or better. The process of busting it out and trying to upsell is what is most likely happening. If it wasnt, then why bust it out?
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Old 04-26-2013, 12:49 PM   #249 (permalink)
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You aren't just asking for his input, you posted a picture of a guy screaming Paul's name.

Sure there are 38 against it, but there are 130 who don't have an issue with it *as long as the cards condition is accurately described in the auction*
He is one of the more well known sellers for the subject at hand and am just hoping he could shed a little more light on the situation and possibly tell everyone he is sorry and will stop doing it instead of running off like a coward?Is a few more bucks worth it?

And if you are asking if he supplies a description of the card or it's condition - NO he does not, "just 2 high resolution photo's"
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Old 04-26-2013, 12:58 PM   #250 (permalink)
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I dont think it can work for a card busted out of a case. Its not as if a BGS 5 can be busted out and sold as "possible Nr-Mnt" or under the guise of possibly being Mint or better. The process of busting it out and trying to upsell is what is most likely happening. If it wasnt, then why bust it out?
No one here agrees a BGS 5 should be advertised as being possibly near mint or Mint or Better. That is 100% wrong.

But 1 reason for busting a BGS 8 is to appeal to more buyers. Some don't like graded and don't want to take the time to bust open a BGS 8. A raw card appeals to more buyers. Yes there are the guys looking to hit a 9.5. But with a proper scan and accurate description (this card is NM-MT), I don't see a problem with it. An 8.5 being advertised as NM-MT or better is fine with me, since an 8.5 (NM-MT+) is better than NM-MT.

I don't crack and sell raw, but I don't have issues when people do it with an accurate description.
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