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View Poll Results: Cracking Graded Cards To Re-Sell Ok??
Yes 160 75.83%
No 51 24.17%
Voters: 211. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 04-24-2013, 12:21 PM   #101 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Kosmo Kards View Post
I don't know why more people don't get this concept. You're one of the few people that is actually honest about condition.
I guarentee my sales or give a refund. Thus far I have had only one person ask for a refund that was due to them finding another copy cheaper and blaming it on condition.

It works for me and the buyer. When I sell something to you and im open and honest about it, chances are you trust me and will buy from me again. Customer loyalty leads to more $$ not 1 time sales and gouging someone with misinformation!! Sustaining a constant flow of sales is the name of the game!!
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Old 04-24-2013, 12:40 PM   #102 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by murrke03 View Post
You don't follow because it shows your position is wrong.

When Beckett deems a card altered they have no clue 100% whether it is altered or not. It is there subjective opinion. Just like a grade.

This is proven by the fact that they have not been consistent in both cases. This the situation is the same.
So if you say that Beckett is not consistent and have no clue whether a card is altered or not, then why would you care if someone tells you the card was graded an 8.5? That information shouldn't matter since beckett is not consistent and have no clue what they are doing?
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Old 04-24-2013, 12:52 PM   #103 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Orangejello727 View Post
I guarentee my sales or give a refund. Thus far I have had only one person ask for a refund that was due to them finding another copy cheaper and blaming it on condition.

It works for me and the buyer. When I sell something to you and im open and honest about it, chances are you trust me and will buy from me again. Customer loyalty leads to more $$ not 1 time sales and gouging someone with misinformation!! Sustaining a constant flow of sales is the name of the game!!
Not saying you are anti-Paul in this instance, but if he (or anyone) accurately describes a cracked out card, does NOT identifying that it was previously graded 'X' matter?

I've never had a return on a raw card, myself. Probably just a few times I cracked a card and sold raw after realizing it wasn't worth re-submitting. I describe the condition and any flaws of note.

What I don't like? "See scan for condition". So many potential flaws that are not visible in a scan.
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Old 04-24-2013, 12:55 PM   #104 (permalink)
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Nothing wrong with it to me but there is no reason to tell people what it was, if you are going to do that you might as well leave it slabbed? Its a raw card at that point it isn't being sold as a BGS 9.5 (if it was then that is an obvious lack of morals.) As long as its sold as a raw card without anything of how mint or gradable it is im fine with it 100%
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Old 04-24-2013, 12:55 PM   #105 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Orangejello727 View Post
Customer loyalty leads to more $$ not 1 time sales and gouging someone with misinformation!! Sustaining a constant flow of sales is the name of the game!!
Check my feedback OJ the name of the game is being real. It's not MISinformation it's just information. There are times when you bust out a 9.5 and can't sell it for that price anymore now that it's raw. It's not always those crooked crooks that you are after.
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Old 04-24-2013, 12:58 PM   #106 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by burke23 View Post
Not saying you are anti-Paul in this instance, but if he (or anyone) accurately describes a cracked out card, does NOT identifying that it was previously graded 'X' matter?

I've never had a return on a raw card, myself. Probably just a few times I cracked a card and sold raw after realizing it wasn't worth re-submitting. I describe the condition and any flaws of note.

What I don't like? "See scan for condition". So many potential flaws that are not visible in a scan.
Depend on your buyer. Like I stated earlier, if I buy a card from you and you had it listed nrmnt-mnt and I got it RCR'd and it came back less than 9.5, would you be okay be asking for a refund by returning the card? Yes or No?

If you dont mind giving me the refund, then you should have no issues with disclosing previous grades or condition sensitivity.

If you have an issue with refunding because the buyer got a card that they expected in better condition, then why not have full disclosure to begin with? Especially if you know the condition prior. Meaning if you know full well the card was Graded a 7.5, why not state it? It gives the buyer the heads up that the card will be within reason to a 7.5 condition.

Most time sellers do not disclose this because they want the buyer to pay more thinking that the card could possibly be a 9 or better. But in reality, they already know it isnt. Thats unehtical. Then you hope and pray they dont notice or claim it as a loss and move on. You basically reap the benefits of misleading people without disclosing what you already knew for an honest transaction.
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Old 04-24-2013, 12:59 PM   #107 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by ManInTheMirror View Post
Check my feedback OJ the name of the game is being real. It's not MISinformation it's just information. There are times when you bust out a 9.5 and can't sell it for that price anymore now that it's raw. It's not always those crooked crooks that you are after.
Keep on keeping. If you choose to sell the way you do, thats up to you. I have nothing against it. Im all for supporting people who request refunds when they dont get what they wanted.
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Old 04-24-2013, 01:14 PM   #108 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Orangejello727 View Post
Depend on your buyer. Like I stated earlier, if I buy a card from you and you had it listed nrmnt-mnt and I got it RCR'd and it came back less than 9.5, would you be okay be asking for a refund by returning the card? Yes or No?

If you dont mind giving me the refund, then you should have no issues with disclosing previous grades or condition sensitivity.

If you have an issue with refunding because the buyer got a card that they expected in better condition, then why not have full disclosure to begin with? Especially if you know the condition prior. Meaning if you know full well the card was Graded a 7.5, why not state it? It gives the buyer the heads up that the card will be within reason to a 7.5 condition.

Most time sellers do not disclose this because they want the buyer to pay more thinking that the card could possibly be a 9 or better. But in reality, they already know it isnt. Thats unehtical. Then you hope and pray they dont notice or claim it as a loss and move on. You basically reap the benefits of misleading people without disclosing what you already knew for an honest transaction.
I think anyone buying a card described as nrmt or nmmt trying to return it because it didn't gem out is crazy. If my description even states 'has light chipping' or 'minor surface scratch' that would support the stated condition, what else can a seller do?

And say it was a bgs 9, you crack and sell raw, and buyer subs it and gets an 8.5. You have now opened yourself to a return because YOU the seller said it was a bgs 9, right? They say buy the card and not the slab...i think selling raw cards is the same. You sell the condition of the card as is because any previous grade has no bearing on future grades. Grading is not a science unfortunately, but rather an educated (ha) opinion.
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Old 04-24-2013, 01:17 PM   #109 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Orangejello727 View Post
Depend on your buyer. Like I stated earlier, if I buy a card from you and you had it listed nrmnt-mnt and I got it RCR'd and it came back less than 9.5, would you be okay be asking for a refund by returning the card? Yes or No?

If you dont mind giving me the refund, then you should have no issues with disclosing previous grades or condition sensitivity.

If you have an issue with refunding because the buyer got a card that they expected in better condition, then why not have full disclosure to begin with? Especially if you know the condition prior. Meaning if you know full well the card was Graded a 7.5, why not state it? It gives the buyer the heads up that the card will be within reason to a 7.5 condition.

Most time sellers do not disclose this because they want the buyer to pay more thinking that the card could possibly be a 9 or better. But in reality, they already know it isnt. Thats unehtical. Then you hope and pray they dont notice or claim it as a loss and move on. You basically reap the benefits of misleading people without disclosing what you already knew for an honest transaction.

My opinion on the topic is based on my belief in the bolded comment above. My belief may be false, but my stance rests on that comment.
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Old 04-24-2013, 01:19 PM   #110 (permalink)
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I think anyone buying a card described as nrmt or nmmt trying to return it because it didn't gem out is crazy. If my description even states 'has light chipping' or 'minor surface scratch' that would support the stated condition, what else can a seller do?

And say it was a bgs 9, you crack and sell raw, and buyer subs it and gets an 8.5. You have now opened yourself to a return because YOU the seller said it was a bgs 9, right? They say buy the card and not the slab...i think selling raw cards is the same. You sell the condition of the card as is because any previous grade has no bearing on future grades. Grading is not a science unfortunately, but rather an educated (ha) opinion.
Why would you crack open a BGS 9 and sell it raw? To entice buyers into thinking the card could possibly be something better than a BGS 9? If you wanted to sell it as a BGS 9, you should have kept it in the slab.

If you sell a card raw with no prior knowledge of its previous grade then you are negligent to its grade. But if you know its a BGS 9, bust it open and sell it as nr mint, what is the purpose?
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Old 04-24-2013, 01:27 PM   #111 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Orangejello727 View Post
Why would you crack open a BGS 9 and sell it raw? To entice buyers into thinking the card could possibly be something better than a BGS 9? If you wanted to sell it as a BGS 9, you should have kept it in the slab.

If you sell a card raw with no prior knowledge of its previous grade then you are negligent to its grade. But if you know its a BGS 9, bust it open and sell it as nr mint, what is the purpose?
What if you don't keep your cards slabbed, and don't want to resend for grading? I've cracked out cheaper 9.5's even with the intent to send to PSA, but never got around to it. Could be a number of reasons why you crack it out, but once you do, why not describe the card vs the previous grade?

If buyers want to ignore an accurately stated condition, that's on them. But you are opening yourself up to some issues if you post what it WAS graded, as there is no guarantee it will grade the same (better or worse).

Honestly this is why I grade a lot of my crap - don't have this problem.
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Old 04-24-2013, 01:31 PM   #112 (permalink)
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So if you say that Beckett is not consistent and have no clue whether a card is altered or not, then why would you care if someone tells you the card was graded an 8.5? That information shouldn't matter since beckett is not consistent and have no clue what they are doing?
Don't flip it to me. That was their position and I am pointing out that it is the same thing so you can't say one is right and the other is wrong.
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Old 04-24-2013, 01:37 PM   #113 (permalink)
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What if you don't keep your cards slabbed, and don't want to resend for grading? I've cracked out cheaper 9.5's even with the intent to send to PSA, but never got around to it. Could be a number of reasons why you crack it out, but once you do, why not describe the card vs the previous grade?

If buyers want to ignore an accurately stated condition, that's on them. But you are opening yourself up to some issues if you post what it WAS graded, as there is no guarantee it will grade the same (better or worse).

Honestly this is why I grade a lot of my crap - don't have this problem.
If you choose to keep a card in raw form thats up to you. If you choose to sell a card, then the honus is on you for accurate description. Like I said, if a card was a BGS 7, why not state it? Im talking about 9.0 vs 9.5. Im talking about a BGS 7 being pawned off as a possible Mint card.

I rather see people sell graded cards. Makes it easier to deal with. Atleast the card is slabbed with an opinion thus the buyer knows exactly what he / she is getting.
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Old 04-24-2013, 01:37 PM   #114 (permalink)
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The entire debate boils down to what one buyer considered material and what others may not.

- If I own an autograph that I receive an expert opinion that the signature is a forgery, can I sell it as 'as is' without disclosing that someone with expertise declared it fake?

- If bingo has been confirmed, is it okay for the parlor to continue selling game pieces for that game?

- If a scratch off lottery game with only one grand prize has been won, should the state continuing selling tickets without disclosing that the winning ticket was already discovered?

- If I submerge my car into a lake and fix any noticable problems should I sell without disclosing that the engine was submerged?


Why place the burden on the buyer to determine if deceipt is occurring? Disclose what you know and let the buyer decide. If you see a large gouge in a card, tell it in the auction description, dont' type 'see picture for condition,' that is simply playing on the hope that a buyer doesn't notice.

As OJ stated, my goal as a seller is to satisfy a customer by delivering a quality product without leaving the buyer in a stat of uncertainty. I don't want an item returned, so I do my very best to provide transparency to buyers. Expell the uncertainty and your chance of an unhappy customer goes down tremendously.

This goes for card packaging. State in your description exactly how you package, down to the penny sleeve. You force out the uncertainty.
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Old 04-24-2013, 01:42 PM   #115 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Orangejello727 View Post
If you choose to keep a card in raw form thats up to you. If you choose to sell a card, then the honus is on you for accurate description. Like I said, if a card was a BGS 7, why not state it? Im talking about 9.0 vs 9.5. Im talking about a BGS 7 being pawned off as a possible Mint card.

I rather see people sell graded cards. Makes it easier to deal with. Atleast the card is slabbed with an opinion thus the buyer knows exactly what he / she is getting.
I think everyone agrees overselling the condition of a raw card is a horrible practice. I think the original question is whether you should be required to disclose the previous grade of a raw card if for all intents and purposes, you describe the raw condition accurately.

I hate to to think about the card that geets subbed multiple times that came back with different grades (9, 8.5, 9, 9.5). Which one do I list if I had cracked it back out?
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Old 04-24-2013, 01:51 PM   #116 (permalink)
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I think everyone agrees overselling the condition of a raw card is a horrible practice. I think the original question is whether you should be required to disclose the previous grade of a raw card if for all intents and purposes, you describe the raw condition accurately.

I hate to to think about the card that geets subbed multiple times that came back with different grades (9, 8.5, 9, 9.5). Which one do I list if I had cracked it back out?
Its easy. Get its graded 1 last time before selling it. That grade on the slab will be the answer to your question. If it comes back slabbed a 9.0, then you list and sell as a 9.0!
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Old 04-24-2013, 01:53 PM   #117 (permalink)
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My curiosity:

Anyone who has taken a statistics or behavior class knows that polls are biased (no matter who conducts them) by the questions asked.


Would this poll change if the question were:

If you purchased an ungraded card, later to find out the seller knew it was professional graded a BGS8.5, you would feel _____

a. indifferent (that information is immaterial)
b. that you were deceived (you wish that information were divulged)


If you bought the card based on a scan (which leaves much to be desired) in the hopes of a high grade, would this information omittance be important? Would your choice of submittal (or lack thereof) possibly be based on knowing this information?

Would the amount you were willing to pay vary based on knowing this information?
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Old 04-24-2013, 01:55 PM   #118 (permalink)
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Don't flip it to me. That was their position and I am pointing out that it is the same thing so you can't say one is right and the other is wrong.
You were the one who started asking if its ok to crack an "altered" slabbed card and tried comparing it to cracking a card with a grade. Yes, both the altered and graded cards are "subjective" since its an opinion and can vary from one grader to the next.

But clearly you are against cracking and selling raw. So my question to you was: since you say bgs has no clue when it comes to grading or telling if a card is altered, why should a seller have to disclose information that you consider not credible?
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Old 04-24-2013, 01:55 PM   #119 (permalink)
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I wish the 26 people who voted 'no' were availabe to the public. I buy several hundred cards per month and I would add you to my preferred seller list.
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Old 04-24-2013, 02:04 PM   #120 (permalink)
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I wish the 26 people who voted 'no' were availabe to the public. I buy several hundred cards per month and I would add you to my preferred seller list.
I voted that it was ok, as long as the seller accurately describes the condition. If it was an 8.5, and they call it NM-MT or better, I don't see the issue since it was graded NM-MT+. Now if it was a 6.5 and they called it NM-MT or just said see scan for condition w/o giving any type of information on the condition of the card, then its wrong.

Here is an example of where I submitted a card 2 times.

I bought a few 1994 SP Alex Rodriguez cards from a guy who busted the boxes himself. I sent all 4 into BGS and all 4 came back "evidence of trimming". I know they were pack fresh and were not trimmed, so I took them to a show for a RCR. I got 1 evidence of trimming, 2 BGS 9s, and 1 BGS 9.5. The other evidence of trimming eventually came back a BGS 9 as well. Do you feel I had an obligation to tell the buyers that the first time it came back "evidence of trimming", when I know they were not trimmed?
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Old 04-24-2013, 02:05 PM   #121 (permalink)
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I wish the 26 people who voted 'no' were availabe to the public. I buy several hundred cards per month and I would add you to my preferred seller list.
The game and vote only changes when they become the victim or start to realize the misinformation!!
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Old 04-24-2013, 02:07 PM   #122 (permalink)
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I bought a few 1994 SP Alex Rodriguez cards from a guy who busted the boxes himself. I sent all 4 into BGS and all 4 came back "evidence of trimming". I know they were pack fresh and were not trimmed, so I took them to a show for a RCR. I got 1 evidence of trimming, 2 BGS 9s, and 1 BGS 9.5. The other evidence of trimming eventually came back a BGS 9 as well. Do you feel I had an obligation to tell the buyers that the first time it came back "evidence of trimming", when I know they were not trimmed?
Excellent scenerio.

I don't have an answer for you. I'll have to think about it. I don't have an opinion right off the bat.

Great example!
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Old 04-24-2013, 02:10 PM   #123 (permalink)
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Excellent scenerio.

I don't have an answer for you. I'll have to think about it. I don't have an opinion right off the bat.

Great example!
This is definitely a discussion worth having on here, as long as it stays civilized. But I'm sure it will end like most blowout threads.
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Old 04-24-2013, 02:26 PM   #124 (permalink)
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I have enjoyed everyones thoughts an opinions regarding the poll question,A big thanks to those who took the time to place a vote as well as dropping a comment!

Fullmetal - you are absolutely right about the title of the poll and how much some may have considered voting no,This was never meant to turn into a pissing match with another member.

Someone comes in and immediatly takes a defensive stance and starts to attack me?

I don't think the majority of the members think its a severe issue and myself being one,However when a greedy fat cat has a long history of this...openly admits he does it because the cards bring more money being raw vs 8.5 or lower is concerning to me and frankly it rubs me the wrong way.
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Old 04-24-2013, 02:28 PM   #125 (permalink)
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I voted that it was ok, as long as the seller accurately describes the condition. If it was an 8.5, and they call it NM-MT or better, I don't see the issue since it was graded NM-MT+. Now if it was a 6.5 and they called it NM-MT or just said see scan for condition w/o giving any type of information on the condition of the card, then its wrong.

Here is an example of where I submitted a card 2 times.

I bought a few 1994 SP Alex Rodriguez cards from a guy who busted the boxes himself. I sent all 4 into BGS and all 4 came back "evidence of trimming". I know they were pack fresh and were not trimmed, so I took them to a show for a RCR. I got 1 evidence of trimming, 2 BGS 9s, and 1 BGS 9.5. The other evidence of trimming eventually came back a BGS 9 as well. Do you feel I had an obligation to tell the buyers that the first time it came back "evidence of trimming", when I know they were not trimmed?
This is my opinion..

If you were to sell all of them, I think they should be stated as the following;

1 sold as 9.5 slabbed
2 sold as BGS 9
Last one sold as BGS 9 because its been slabbed BGS 9. If it was still in raw form, I feel that you are obligated to let the buyer know that it was returned as possibly trimmed. This would give the buyer a heads up with information that would make the decision for him much easier on whether to buy it or not.

If the card has been slabbed a BGS 9 and was previously noted as trimmed, its not a BGS 9 however you look at it. The moral duty lies in doing what you would want done to you if you were in the shoes of the person that is buying.

If I was buying a card, I definately would want to know if the raw copy had been graded before and the grade it was given. If I want that as a buyer, then as a seller I would want to disclose that information. If you honestly dont know the grade (If the card was pulled from a pack the day before and for sale today), then thats being honest. But if you know beforehand, why not disclose it?
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