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View Poll Results: Cracking Graded Cards To Re-Sell Ok??
Yes 160 75.83%
No 51 24.17%
Voters: 211. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 04-25-2013, 10:54 PM   #176 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Orangejello727 View Post
See that card in your avatar?

What if I sold you a barkley autographics but knew it was fake. But pawned it off as to the bet of my knowledge as being real. Would that be fair? I mean all i have to do is claim "I didnt know and in my opinion its real!!"

Would you be okay with that? Or as a buyer would you want to know?

Dont say its not the same thing because it is. Hiding behind manipulated words and descriptions to gain for more profit.

The reason why people break BGS 7 cases and sell raw is because a BGS 7 slabbed cards sells for less than a raw version.
Your point is moot when you state that you know the cards was fake.

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Originally Posted by penny1fan View Post
In my opinion when you get kicked off of another forum for doing it,and here is 36 votes against your methods... there is a problem with it.
Your 36 votes are called the minority. And what exactly did the user get booted for? Curious. Was it selling raw cards as described? Or was it cracking out lower grade cards and selling without describing condition or even over exaggerating the condition?
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Old 04-25-2013, 10:58 PM   #177 (permalink)
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When someone was banned from another forum over a year ago for doing it,knows it is not right....Yet he keeps doing it thinking it is ok,Goes through all the troubles of doing it,now why do you think one would keep doing this???

Hmmmmmmmm ???????????


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Old 04-25-2013, 11:01 PM   #178 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by jr24ai3 View Post
What if I buy a BGS 8.5, crack and resub it, and get a 9.5. Does the 8.5 grade need to be disclosed then? Or are we just talking about raw cards?

And just say you crack out a card graded a BGS 9 for your PC. 2 years later you decide to sell it, knowing it was an BGS 9 in the past. If you say it was a BGS 9 and the buyer subs it and it gets an 8.5, you are opening yourself up to a paypal dispute. By stating the grade, you have to rely on beckett's consistency with grading, which we all know is not very reliable.
Can you show us an example of anyone who has cracked an 8.5 and had it regraded as a 9.5?
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Old 04-25-2013, 11:02 PM   #179 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by burke23 View Post
Your point is moot when you state that you know the cards was fake.



Your 36 votes are called the minority. And what exactly did the user get booted for? Curious. Was it selling raw cards as described? Or was it cracking out lower grade cards and selling without describing condition or even over exaggerating the condition?
He was caught cracking several graded cards and others on the forum noticed he was proceeding to sell them as MINT or better out from underneathe people.This was over a year ago and is still doing it,He was a moderator for the forum and was abusing his popularity and privileges.In this hobby I would have thought many others would have seen this as somewhat betrayal?I guess I am of the small minority here?
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Old 04-25-2013, 11:11 PM   #180 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by burke23 View Post
Your point is moot when you state that you know the cards was fake.
And when you know a card is BGS 7 and you crack it out to sell it raw with the intention to dupe the buyer into thinking its possibly Mint? They are one in the same. A guise to dupe the buyer into paying more for something you know full well they are not getting. You just mask it with semantics to feel good about doing it.
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Old 04-25-2013, 11:11 PM   #181 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by jj2 View Post
Can you show us an example of anyone who has cracked an 8.5 and had it regraded as a 9.5?
I know it has happened, and have read about it on here. It was just a scenario that I proposed to people for opinions. whether its an 8.5 that's re-graded to a 9.5 or a 9 to a 9.5, the point was should the previous grade be told to the buyers?
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Old 04-25-2013, 11:13 PM   #182 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by jr24ai3 View Post
I know it has happened, and have read about it on here. It was just a scenario that I proposed to people for opinions. whether its an 8.5 that's re-graded to a 9.5 or a 9 to a 9.5, the point was should the previous grade be told to the buyers?
Its bound to happen once in a while. But its not common. Most cards are graded within reason. A few mistake will happen along the way. Its not perfect.
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Old 04-25-2013, 11:16 PM   #183 (permalink)
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I typically stay away from these types of threads, but for once I feel like contributing, so here goes..

Fact is, most people aren't collecting cards nowadays for enjoyment. Most people can't get a Kyrie Irving autograph out of a box without wondering "Wow, I wonder how much I can get for this?!" or "I wonder how much I can flip this Jordan auto for if I can snipe it for a good auction price". Most cards are more like miniature stocks that people want to put some money into, and get more money out of.

When it comes to selling cards, people want the most money possible, and everybody wants to pay the least amount possible. It's painfully obvious if you are tracking condition in a card that modern BGS sub 8 cards go for under typical raw SV, 8.5-9 get close to raw SV and 9.5-10 get more, sometimes much more. If you aren't thinking about condition and reselling it when you buy it, then it is probably a PC item. So, to crack out a card for pure intentions to re-sell to someone else (at a profit, because who sells to take a loss unless it's an emergency or something similar) is trying to upsell the card. The car analogy earlier in this thread was actually really good, and I'll use one similar:

Say you take in your car to a dealership to sell it. The dealer offers you $2,500 based on the condition, mileage, model, kelley book value, whatever. You take the $2,500. Well, the dealer is going to take your $2,500 car, get it cleaned, fix up the interior, wax and wash, replace the busted taillight, and so on. They aren't going to sell that current BGS 7 to the next customer, they are going to crack the case and turn it into a BGS 9 because the next customer isn't going to pay $5,000 for it in its current condition. People want money, and raw > low grades, so most people are going to upsell these cards and not care about morals or ethics or anything.
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Old 04-25-2013, 11:16 PM   #184 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Orangejello727 View Post
See that card in your avatar?

What if I sold you a barkley autographics but knew it was fake. But pawned it off as to the bet of my knowledge as being real. Would that be fair? I mean all i have to do is claim "I didnt know and in my opinion its real!!"

Would you be okay with that? Or as a buyer would you want to know?

Dont say its not the same thing because it is. Hiding behind manipulated words and descriptions to gain for more profit.

The reason why people break BGS 7 cases and sell raw is because a BGS 7 slabbed cards sells for less than a raw version.
I really don't see how selling a fake card can be the same as not telling someone a card was graded a BGS 7. They are 2 different situations. Maybe if you cracked a BGS 4 with a light crease and didn't mention the crease. That could somewhat be compared to a fake card.

If someone cracks a BGS 7 and lists the condition as Near Mint, that is an accurate description IMO. As a buyer, I wouldn't expect a card listed as Near Mint to get a 9. The seller told me its basically a 7 by listing it as Near Mint.
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Old 04-25-2013, 11:17 PM   #185 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Orangejello727 View Post
And when you know a card is BGS 7 and you crack it out to sell it raw with the intention to dupe the buyer into thinking its possibly Mint? They are one in the same. A guise to dupe the buyer into paying more for something you know full well they are not getting. You just mask it with semantics to feel good about doing it.
Ok...totally different situation if he is not accurately describing the card, but apparently the first five times I stated the importance of doing so went unnoticed...my bad?


Quote:
Originally Posted by jj2 View Post
Can you show us an example of anyone who has cracked an 8.5 and had it regraded as a 9.5?
I have cracked a psa 8 to get a bgs 9.5....sorry that didn't quite meet your request
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Old 04-25-2013, 11:27 PM   #186 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Setzy View Post
I typically stay away from these types of threads, but for once I feel like contributing, so here goes..

Fact is, most people aren't collecting cards nowadays for enjoyment. Most people can't get a Kyrie Irving autograph out of a box without wondering "Wow, I wonder how much I can get for this?!" or "I wonder how much I can flip this Jordan auto for if I can snipe it for a good auction price". Most cards are more like miniature stocks that people want to put some money into, and get more money out of.

When it comes to selling cards, people want the most money possible, and everybody wants to pay the least amount possible. It's painfully obvious if you are tracking condition in a card that modern BGS sub 8 cards go for under typical raw SV, 8.5-9 get close to raw SV and 9.5-10 get more, sometimes much more. If you aren't thinking about condition and reselling it when you buy it, then it is probably a PC item. So, to crack out a card for pure intentions to re-sell to someone else (at a profit, because who sells to take a loss unless it's an emergency or something similar) is trying to upsell the card. The car analogy earlier in this thread was actually really good, and I'll use one similar:

Say you take in your car to a dealership to sell it. The dealer offers you $2,500 based on the condition, mileage, model, kelley book value, whatever. You take the $2,500. Well, the dealer is going to take your $2,500 car, get it cleaned, fix up the interior, wax and wash, replace the busted taillight, and so on. They aren't going to sell that current BGS 7 to the next customer, they are going to crack the case and turn it into a BGS 9 because the next customer isn't going to pay $5,000 for it in its current condition. People want money, and raw > low grades, so most people are going to upsell these cards and not care about morals or ethics or anything.
The difference is that, you can alter the car appearance. In this industry/hobby, you just cannot. Any alteration is considering as banned (e.x. trimming).

And besides, buying car has lemon law; buying card does. It totally leaves the "trust" on the seller. That's why, this hobby/industry relies on trust and reputation FAR more than anything else. Just think of all the auto memorabilia, you can't sell any of those without a good source of COA.
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Old 04-25-2013, 11:28 PM   #187 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by burke23 View Post

I have cracked a psa 8 to get a bgs 9.5....sorry that didn't quite meet your request
What card was it?

You are right 'accurately' describing the card is the key.

But busting a bgs 7 and just stating 'near mint or better' is accurate?
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Old 04-25-2013, 11:30 PM   #188 (permalink)
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I really don't see how selling a fake card can be the same as not telling someone a card was graded a BGS 7. They are 2 different situations. Maybe if you cracked a BGS 4 with a light crease and didn't mention the crease. That could somewhat be compared to a fake card.

If someone cracks a BGS 7 and lists the condition as Near Mint, that is an accurate description IMO. As a buyer, I wouldn't expect a card listed as Near Mint to get a 9. The seller told me its basically a 7 by listing it as Near Mint.
The thing is that.. BGS 4 is like a death sentence to the sale. On the other hand, if you have cracked and sell it raw with "slightly creased in the middle with perfect edge/corners/center" would let you to sell at higher price. Heck, some sellers would even put "the card is like this from the pack pulled, and this is manufacturer damaged".
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Old 04-25-2013, 11:37 PM   #189 (permalink)
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What card was it?

You are right 'accurately' describing the card is the key.

But busting a bgs 7 and just stating 'near mint or better' is accurate?
2007 bowman sterling jason heyward auto. I thought the 8 grade was waaaay off.

Busting a bgs 7 and selling as nrmt because of reason x and y is perfectly fine. Leaving the door open for better is rather cheesy.
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Old 04-26-2013, 12:13 AM   #190 (permalink)
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The thing is that.. BGS 4 is like a death sentence to the sale. On the other hand, if you have cracked and sell it raw with "slightly creased in the middle with perfect edge/corners/center" would let you to sell at higher price. Heck, some sellers would even put "the card is like this from the pack pulled, and this is manufacturer damaged".
I would not have a problem w/ someone cracking out a BGS 4 and selling it raw, as long as they mention the crease.

As long as a seller accurately describes a card, I wouldn't have a problem with them cracking a case and selling it raw.
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Old 04-26-2013, 12:17 AM   #191 (permalink)
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2007 bowman sterling jason heyward auto. I thought the 8 grade was waaaay off.

Busting a bgs 7 and selling as nrmt because of reason x and y is perfectly fine. Leaving the door open for better is rather cheesy.
Agree. No one is saying its right to deceive a buyer. If it was a 7.5, I could see using "near mint or better". Because a 7.5 will typically regrade between a 7 and 8, which fits Near Mint (7) or better (7.5 or higher).

I do use NM-MT or better in my listings for raw cards. A lot I feel will grade a 9, but the last thing I want to do is get the buyers expectations too high by calling it MINT in the listing. So I just use NM-MT or better because I am confident it will grade a minimum of an 8 (NM-MT).
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Old 04-26-2013, 12:22 AM   #192 (permalink)
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Agree. No one is saying its right to deceive a buyer. If it was a 7.5, I could see using "near mint or better". Because a 7.5 will typically regrade between a 7 and 8, which fits Near Mint (7) or better (7.5 or higher).

I do use NM-MT or better in my listings for raw cards. A lot I feel will grade a 9, but the last thing I want to do is get the buyers expectations too high by calling it MINT in the listing. So I just use NM-MT or better because I am confident it will grade a minimum of an 8 (NM-MT).
Your definition of "near mint" is not what my definition of my "near mint". Hence, the "near mint or better" is not really accurately describe the card condition. If you want to describe the card, you have to list all the defects. "near mint" is an opinion, NOT a fact.
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Old 04-26-2013, 12:31 AM   #193 (permalink)
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Your definition of "near mint" is not what my definition of my "near mint". Hence, the "near mint or better" is not really accurately describe the card condition. If you want to describe the card, you have to list all the defects. "near mint" is an opinion, NOT a fact.
Well if you don't know what Near Mint means, go to PSA or BGS's site and look up what "Near Mint" is. That's the standard in the industry. If your "Near Mint" is different, then that's your issue. Typically with a "Near Mint" card, the flaws are easily visible in a scan for a raw card. If they are not easily visible, I would mention the flaw in the listing. EX: no need to mention a card being off center when that's visible...chipping on a black border is also visible, no need to mention. A slight corner ding on a black border that is not visible in a scan gets mentioned in the listing.
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Old 04-26-2013, 12:34 AM   #194 (permalink)
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Well, I happened to have a graded card and did some testing.

GRADED Nick Foles auto card!!!

$100 for grabs

Basically nobody wants it. If you notice in the second thread I had not even yet designated a price, the buyer says "literally will buy anything at a good price" in his thread, but yet passes on the card.

This is the point I've been trying to make. I have sold and traded a good number of cards on here. You can research my selling threads- I never make claim of condition for my cards unless there is something wrong with them. But yet everyone has always been happy and I've had no problems.

I have this Foles card now- and I got it not aiming to sell it and especially not so quickly but I want to move it. Normally, and as I have in the past twice, I would bust graded cards out immediately upon receiving them. So down the line when I ended up selling them I would sell them raw and not even think to include said information.

I am not trying to sway anyone's opinion- but if I busted this (Foles) out and sold it the same way I always sell cards I just don't see me doing anything wrong.
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Old 04-26-2013, 12:56 AM   #195 (permalink)
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Well if you don't know what Near Mint means, go to PSA or BGS's site and look up what "Near Mint" is. That's the standard in the industry. If your "Near Mint" is different, then that's your issue. Typically with a "Near Mint" card, the flaws are easily visible in a scan for a raw card. If they are not easily visible, I would mention the flaw in the listing. EX: no need to mention a card being off center when that's visible...chipping on a black border is also visible, no need to mention. A slight corner ding on a black border that is not visible in a scan gets mentioned in the listing.
This is from Beckett. See all the wording there "slight", "a few", "very minor". Are you going to follow this guideline to check your card? No seller would bother to refer to this list, but just put "Near mint or better" to save their butt.

To me, the phase "near mint or better" starts to mean nothing to buyer. It doesn't tell me that the seller is actually doing the work to check the card condition.

Near Mint 7
Centering: 65/35 both ways or better on front. 90/10 or better on back. Very slight diamond cutting is allowed.
Corners: Very minor wear on two or three corners is allowed.
Edges: Slight roughness, minor chipping or very minor notching is allowed.
Surface: A few noticeable print spots or minor speckling is allowed. Minor color or focus imperfections. Very minor border discoloration. A very minor wax stain on back. Solid gloss with a few minor scratches detectable upon close inspection. A few metallic print lines.
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Old 04-26-2013, 12:57 AM   #196 (permalink)
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Old 04-26-2013, 01:16 AM   #197 (permalink)
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This is from Beckett. See all the wording there "slight", "a few", "very minor". Are you going to follow this guideline to check your card? No seller would bother to refer to this list, but just put "Near mint or better" to save their butt.

To me, the phase "near mint or better" starts to mean nothing to buyer. It doesn't tell me that the seller is actually doing the work to check the card condition.

Near Mint 7
Centering: 65/35 both ways or better on front. 90/10 or better on back. Very slight diamond cutting is allowed.
Corners: Very minor wear on two or three corners is allowed.
Edges: Slight roughness, minor chipping or very minor notching is allowed.
Surface: A few noticeable print spots or minor speckling is allowed. Minor color or focus imperfections. Very minor border discoloration. A very minor wax stain on back. Solid gloss with a few minor scratches detectable upon close inspection. A few metallic print lines.
I deal with a decent amount of vintage cards, so I am very familiar with all of the grades. So once you know what to look for, its easy to call a card Near Mint, or Ex-Mt, or Ex, or Vg-Ex, etc. I've easily graded well over 15,000 cards over the past 10 years (not submitting to beckett or psa, but giving a grade to raw cards so they can be accurately priced/sold based on condition). Once you start doing it and learn what is expected out of each grade, it is really pretty simple.

Maybe people have different expectations for modern cards when they hear Near Mint than they have for vintage. But really, Near Mint is Near Mint, whether its 1965 or 1995 or 2005. You just see rarely see vintage reach the NM-MT status compared to Modern, where 99% of cards come out of packs at NM-MT+ or better.
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Old 04-26-2013, 01:18 AM   #198 (permalink)
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The first grading done is highly subjective in the first place, it shouldn't matter if you bust it out and get it done by a different grader, maybe a better grade depending on his mood.
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Old 04-26-2013, 01:25 AM   #199 (permalink)
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I deal with a decent amount of vintage cards, so I am very familiar with all of the grades. So once you know what to look for, its easy to call a card Near Mint, or Ex-Mt, or Ex, or Vg-Ex, etc. I've easily graded well over 15,000 cards over the past 10 years (not submitting to beckett or psa, but giving a grade to raw cards so they can be accurately priced/sold based on condition). Once you start doing it and learn what is expected out of each grade, it is really pretty simple.

Maybe people have different expectations for modern cards when they hear Near Mint than they have for vintage. But really, Near Mint is Near Mint, whether its 1965 or 1995 or 2005. You just see rarely see vintage reach the NM-MT status compared to Modern, where 99% of cards come out of packs at NM-MT+ or better.
"NM-MT+ or better" is such a general statement. If this is true, then most people who are buying modern raw is ok with BGS 7.5 grade. However, the market clearly shows otherwise. People expect the modern card to be BGS 9.0 (not even 8.5).

So, when the seller puts in a general statement "NM-MT+ or better" for every card, that is not accurately describe the card condition. People put "NM-MT" as the safety net AND put "or better" as a bait for sale.
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Old 04-26-2013, 01:29 AM   #200 (permalink)
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"NM-MT+ or better" is such a general statement. If this is true, then most people who are buying modern raw is ok with BGS 7.5 grade. However, the market clearly shows otherwise. People expect the modern card to be BGS 9.0 (not even 8.5).

So, when the seller puts in a general statement "NM-MT+ or better" for every card, that is not accurately describe the card condition. People put "NM-MT" as the safety net AND put "or better" as a bait for sale.
A 7.5 would be Near Mint+. NM-MT+ or better would be an 8.5 or better.

Yes, NM-MT is a safety net because the last thing you want to do is over grade a card. Clearly there are people out there that don't know how to grade a card or what the numerical grade actually means in terms of condition.

As I said, I use NM-MT or better on a lot of modern auctions even if I feel a card is closer to Mint. There is no reason to start telling people a card is Mint. Because most buyers don't realize that a "Mint" card in grading standards is not free of flaws.
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