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View Poll Results: Cracking Graded Cards To Re-Sell Ok??
Yes 160 75.83%
No 51 24.17%
Voters: 211. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 04-26-2013, 01:54 AM   #201 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by xavieronly1 View Post
The thing is that.. BGS 4 is like a death sentence to the sale. On the other hand, if you have cracked and sell it raw with "slightly creased in the middle with perfect edge/corners/center" would let you to sell at higher price.
You mean like this?





Good thing I'm not selling this one....
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Old 04-26-2013, 01:57 AM   #202 (permalink)
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^^^^ Now crack that card and sell it with no description,Just add a few high resolution pictures for the buyers...That would do the trick and make it ok!
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Old 04-26-2013, 02:01 AM   #203 (permalink)
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You mean like this?
Good thing I'm not selling this one....
Yeah. The hard fact with BGS 4 would damage your sale more more than "slightly creased in the middle". And if people really stick to BGS grade, BGS 4 is like 30%~40% of your mint condition. And "slightly creased in the middle" would still give you 80% of the mint condition.
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Old 04-26-2013, 02:06 AM   #204 (permalink)
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Was the auto on that Wilt a 10?

Sell it to Leaf, let them make a cut 1/1 and it will be worth $5k easily lol
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Old 04-26-2013, 02:07 AM   #205 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by xavieronly1 View Post
Yeah. The hard fact with BGS 4 would damage your sale more more than "slightly creased in the middle". And if people really stick to BGS grade, BGS 4 is like 30%~40% of your mint condition. And "slightly creased in the middle" would still give you 80% of the mint condition.
On a card like that, a light crease in the middle will not affect the sale value as much as a slight crease on a 1960 topps card due to the rarity of the card and most people are buying it for the autograph. I don't know what that card goes for, so lets just say 2000 for a normal NM-MT copy. I'd say that still brings $1300-1400. While a creased 1960 topps card might only get 30% like Xavier said.
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Old 04-26-2013, 02:14 AM   #206 (permalink)
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Was the auto on that Wilt a 10?

Sell it to Leaf, let them make a cut 1/1 and it will be worth $5k easily lol
Brian actually just won a card from me on Ebay tonight lol
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Old 04-26-2013, 02:53 AM   #207 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by tristan20 View Post
Was the auto on that Wilt a 10?

Sell it to Leaf, let them make a cut 1/1 and it will be worth $5k easily lol
Yep, 9.5s all round and 10 auto, but for the creasing caused by high pressure in the middle of the card...

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Originally Posted by jr24ai3 View Post
On a card like that, a light crease in the middle will not affect the sale value as much as a slight crease on a 1960 topps card due to the rarity of the card and most people are buying it for the autograph. I don't know what that card goes for, so lets just say 2000 for a normal NM-MT copy. I'd say that still brings $1300-1400. While a creased 1960 topps card might only get 30% like Xavier said.
There are several light creases, but I doubt it'd sell that high. I would never bust it out though. I do see what you're saying though - it does depend on the card.
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Old 04-26-2013, 07:28 AM   #208 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by xavieronly1 View Post
The difference is that, you can alter the car appearance. In this industry/hobby, you just cannot. Any alteration is considering as banned (e.x. trimming).

And besides, buying car has lemon law; buying card does. It totally leaves the "trust" on the seller. That's why, this hobby/industry relies on trust and reputation FAR more than anything else. Just think of all the auto memorabilia, you can't sell any of those without a good source of COA.
Forget altering. How about hiding facts and information? If a car has been in a wreck and fixed, it must be divulged and it will show on the title. The information is transparent.
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Old 04-26-2013, 08:48 AM   #209 (permalink)
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What it comes down to is the reason why the seller does it. And that reason is greed and money.

They hope to trick and dupe the buyer into bidding more money. That is shady.
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Old 04-26-2013, 08:52 AM   #210 (permalink)
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What I would love to know is, who in the WORLD, would buy such a faded Wilt Chamberlain autograph? It's just beyond me.... It would take a very special person to do such a thing.
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Old 04-26-2013, 10:10 AM   #211 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Setzy View Post
I typically stay away from these types of threads, but for once I feel like contributing, so here goes..

Fact is, most people aren't collecting cards nowadays for enjoyment. Most people can't get a Kyrie Irving autograph out of a box without wondering "Wow, I wonder how much I can get for this?!" or "I wonder how much I can flip this Jordan auto for if I can snipe it for a good auction price". Most cards are more like miniature stocks that people want to put some money into, and get more money out of.

When it comes to selling cards, people want the most money possible, and everybody wants to pay the least amount possible. It's painfully obvious if you are tracking condition in a card that modern BGS sub 8 cards go for under typical raw SV, 8.5-9 get close to raw SV and 9.5-10 get more, sometimes much more. If you aren't thinking about condition and reselling it when you buy it, then it is probably a PC item. So, to crack out a card for pure intentions to re-sell to someone else (at a profit, because who sells to take a loss unless it's an emergency or something similar) is trying to upsell the card. The car analogy earlier in this thread was actually really good, and I'll use one similar:

Say you take in your car to a dealership to sell it. The dealer offers you $2,500 based on the condition, mileage, model, kelley book value, whatever. You take the $2,500. Well, the dealer is going to take your $2,500 car, get it cleaned, fix up the interior, wax and wash, replace the busted taillight, and so on. They aren't going to sell that current BGS 7 to the next customer, they are going to crack the case and turn it into a BGS 9 because the next customer isn't going to pay $5,000 for it in its current condition. People want money, and raw > low grades, so most people are going to upsell these cards and not care about morals or ethics or anything.
Thank you. I knew when I posed the question as 'what are you expecting to gain from doing so' would be ignored by those who do it.

Thank you for explicitly stating the one and only reason that someone would buy, crack and immediately resell.

The absolute only reason is deceit with the hope of a higher selling price. Outside of a 0.5% chance of other legimate reasons, the overwhelming reason is to turn a profit through deceit.
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Old 04-26-2013, 10:13 AM   #212 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by burke23 View Post
Ok...totally different situation if he is not accurately describing the card, but apparently the first five times I stated the importance of doing so went unnoticed...my bad?




I have cracked a psa 8 to get a bgs 9.5....sorry that didn't quite meet your request
I buy close to 500 auctions a month. I bet that less than 5% of sellers spend to time to describe condition. Half of them say 'see scan' which only provides visual evidence of extreme damage. The other half of the listings don't have a word in the description other than 'posted by eBay mobile.'

Your example has merit, but it does NOT happen.
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Old 04-26-2013, 10:13 AM   #213 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by fullmetal View Post
Thank you. I knew when I posed the question as 'what are you expecting to gain from doing so' would be ignored by those who do it.

Thank you for explicitly stating the one and only reason that someone would buy, crack and immediately resell.

The absolute only reason is deceit with the hope of a higher selling price. Outside of a 0.5% chance of other legimate reasons, the overwhelming reason is to turn a profit through deceit.
I did not fully realize this conversation was mainly about people who do this immediately with intention. I thought it was more of a broad general discussion.

I can see where you guys stand now and somewhat agree. I like to think my case was different as I never did this in order to trick a buyer into giving me more money. But if you have an issue with someone doing this to make money then you have to be against flippers as well. There main goal is to purchase cheap just to sell high. It's all about the money to them.
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Old 04-26-2013, 10:14 AM   #214 (permalink)
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Forget altering. How about hiding facts and information? If a car has been in a wreck and fixed, it must be divulged and it will show on the title. The information is transparent.
That's why using car example is not perfectly fitted here. You have way more laws to protect consumers from buying a defected car. You have police reports that are related to car VIN.

For card, do you have VIN number? Do you find a police report every time you damage the card? Do you even own a title for a card? NONE.

And besides, what seriously determine "hiding facts and information"? What is fact? What is hiding? What is information? You list me some law from every country and tell me what are those.

Some of the not well developed countries don't even have "lemon law" (or anything similar) to protect consumer from buying defected cars. In those places, the sale person just has to earn trust and you, as a consumer, would have to buy based on reputation or referral.
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Old 04-26-2013, 10:19 AM   #215 (permalink)
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^^^^ Now crack that card and sell it with no description,Just add a few high resolution pictures for the buyers...That would do the trick and make it ok!
How much would the Wilt command as is? How much would the Wilt command if cracked and listed 'with crease'?

We know the latter would sell for more and that is the ONLY reason someone cracks to resale. That is deception and anyone who does it is a fraud.

If the poll is accurate, we play in a hobby that lacks integrity.
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Old 04-26-2013, 10:23 AM   #216 (permalink)
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I did not fully realize this conversation was mainly about people who do this immediately with intention. I thought it was more of a broad general discussion.

I can see where you guys stand now and somewhat agree. I like to think my case was different as I never did this in order to trick a buyer into giving me more money. But if you have an issue with someone doing this to make money then you have to be against flippers as well. There main goal is to purchase cheap just to sell high. It's all about the money to them.

Correct. I'm referring to a short term series of transactions. Not an issue with flipping, that is merely playing the ups and downs of the market demands. I'm talking about taking advantage through the omittance of material information that a buyer WOULD use to make a decision about their purchase.

Long term, the information remains relevant, but understandibly that information may not be remembered.

I started to state if you feel uncomfortable listing something with omitted information, but then I realized that only works for people who legitimately feel bad when defrauding another.
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Old 04-26-2013, 10:28 AM   #217 (permalink)
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That's why using car example is not perfectly fitted here. You have way more laws to protect consumers from buying a defected car. You have police reports that are related to car VIN.

For card, do you have VIN number? Do you find a police report every time you damage the card? Do you even own a title for a card? NONE.

And besides, what seriously determine "hiding facts and information"? What is fact? What is hiding? What is information? You list me some law from every country and tell me what are those.
Some of the not well developed countries don't even have "lemon law" (or anything similar) to protect consumer from buying defected cars. In those places, the sale person just has to earn trust and you, as a consumer, would have to buy based on reputation or referral.
Look up MATERIAL and you will have your answer.

Of sufficient importance or relevance as to have possible significant influence on an outcome.
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Old 04-26-2013, 10:35 AM   #218 (permalink)
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I did not fully realize this conversation was mainly about people who do this immediately with intention. I thought it was more of a broad general discussion.

I can see where you guys stand now and somewhat agree. I like to think my case was different as I never did this in order to trick a buyer into giving me more money. But if you have an issue with someone doing this to make money then you have to be against flippers as well. There main goal is to purchase cheap just to sell high. It's all about the money to them.
Nothing wrong with flipping.

I buy a card for $10 and sell it for $20. I accruately describe the card.

I buy a card for $12 in BGS 7 condition, bust it out and flip it raw for $80 because I can get buyers to think that it could possibly grade to gem mint knowing full well it was graded a bgs 7 prior.

Two totally different scenarios. THe purpose of buying card at $10 and selling at $20 is to make money. Nothing unehtical there. To bust a BGS 7 and pawn the card off as a possible better condition to increase profit is being unethical KNOWING full well it was graded less but giving the perception that it can be more.

Last edited by Orangejello727; 04-26-2013 at 10:37 AM.
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Old 04-26-2013, 10:39 AM   #219 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Orangejello727 View Post
Nothing wrong with flipping.

I buy a card for $10 and sell it for $20. I accruately describe the card.

I buy a card for $12 in BGS 7 condition, bust it out and flip it raw for $80 because I can get buyers to think that it could possibly grade to gem mint knowing full well it was graded a bgs 7 prior.

Two totally different scenarios. THe purpose of buying card at $10 and selling at $20 is to make money. Nothing unehtical there. To bust a BGS 7 and pawn the card off as a possible better condition to increase profit is being unethical KNOWING full well it was graded less but giving the perception that it can be more.
Right, and I think maybe I should have never even chimed in because I don't do it like that, repeadetly, in order to profit. So I just wanted to be clear there that it was just a 2 time thing and I will sell this Foles graded but if I bust it out I will thus inform the buyer it was graded 8.5- good day gentlemen.
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Old 04-26-2013, 10:40 AM   #220 (permalink)
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Take that Will auto in the post above.

If that card is busted out out of the case and sold with a note "As is" "Small damage" on the card. Please see scan. What do you think it sellls for?

If that card is sold with the BGS 4 slab how much does it sell for?

My bet is the card would sell for more in raw form than BGS 4 because the description does not fit the proper and accurate flaw in the card to the buyer. THe buyer now must only work with the limited scans, views and hopefully the sellers honesty.

Here is the part that I dont understand. Say you sell that card raw and get more $$. If I buy that card and get it in the mail, I would request a refund. Now the seller has to refund me and is out the time and money. Even worse, Im probably not buying from him again.
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Old 04-26-2013, 10:48 AM   #221 (permalink)
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Take that Will auto in the post above.

If that card is busted out out of the case and sold with a note "As is" "Small damage" on the card. Please see scan. What do you think it sellls for?

If that card is sold with the BGS 4 slab how much does it sell for?

My bet is the card would sell for more in raw form than BGS 4 because the description does not fit the proper and accurate flaw in the card to the buyer. THe buyer now must only work with the limited scans, views and hopefully the sellers honesty.

Here is the part that I dont understand. Say you sell that card raw and get more $$. If I buy that card and get it in the mail, I would request a refund. Now the seller has to refund me and is out the time and money. Even worse, Im probably not buying from him again.
Thank you for clearly stating what I attempted to a few posts above.

I believe that a seller could accurately describe the damage, but I don't believe it happens even a small fraction of the time. The scan is viewed by the buyer and an impression is made within a second. Removing the holder of a card with a subpar condition alters that impression.


I won't comment anymore. I stick to my beliefs. I will not deceive in order to profit. I'm transparent and you will be treated with the same respect I expect. I expect my buyers to hold me to my word.
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Old 04-26-2013, 10:51 AM   #222 (permalink)
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How much would the Wilt command as is? How much would the Wilt command if cracked and listed 'with crease'?

We know the latter would sell for more and that is the ONLY reason someone cracks to resale. That is deception and anyone who does it is a fraud.

If the poll is accurate, we play in a hobby that lacks integrity.
Honestly, the chance of me wanting to buy a bgs 4 wilt with a crease is going to be the same as if the wilt was not in the case but the description of the crease was written in bold letters and 18 pt font. I'm not sure why the latter would bring in more interest in this case...the card has a crease! In this instance, the grade really doesn't matter because nobody is deceived by thinking a creased card is worth a grade of 7

Maybe if the description did not mention the crease, you might be able to trick a good amount of people into bidding on the card by taking deceiving pictures in certain lighting but that example would be way over the top

I get the point with busting out an 8 and describing it as a 9 but at the same time, card buyers are savvy enough to know what to look for or ask for if they're gonna buy a high priced non graded card.
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Old 04-26-2013, 11:08 AM   #223 (permalink)
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Look up MATERIAL and you will have your answer.

Of sufficient importance or relevance as to have possible significant influence on an outcome.
Actually, there are many places with the different definition of "material". Even your definition, what is significant? 1.96 standard deviations away from the mean? If a raw card is sold for $110, and a BGS 8.5 is sold for $100, is it significant?

Even within the same industry, material can have very different meaning.
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Old 04-26-2013, 11:10 AM   #224 (permalink)
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Here is a high end buyer who puts a ton of emphasis on the condition of the card.

Check out the feedback he leaves people when he gets a card that is NOT in the condition he expects it to be in

eBay Feedback Profile for wegotstock99

This is a prime example of why selling high end ungraded cards is a two way street. More headaches then you realize in the long run.
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Old 04-26-2013, 11:16 AM   #225 (permalink)
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Here is a high end buyer who puts a ton of emphasis on the condition of the card.

Check out the feedback he leaves people when he gets a card that is NOT in the condition he expects it to be in

eBay Feedback Profile for wegotstock99

This is a prime example of why selling high end ungraded cards is a two way street. More headaches then you realize in the long run.

Some sellers would rather take the chance at getting a few extra bucks (same principle of crackings slabs for resell)It is funny how some will go through all of that trouble and out of their way for a few more dollars but can't be honest or list a condition description?

I sold a 98-99 Grant Hill Playmakers Theatre /100 on Hobby Kings to wegotstock99 and had no issues,but the Hill was in excellent condition.
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