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Old 11-13-2013, 10:21 AM   #26 (permalink)
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I personally think panini products have better returns than UD products in average. I remember back in the days when I bust UD products, I get scrubs continuesly...

Now days people are spoiled with "mojo" hits and returns but forgot to enjoy the fun of breaking hobby boxes.
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Old 11-13-2013, 10:22 AM   #27 (permalink)
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I told you so!

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Old 11-13-2013, 10:28 AM   #28 (permalink)
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Way to much garbage rookies and stickers.. But maybe we are just so soiled from flawless. Anyway in starting away and taking the singles route. Also find it hard to believe no one on here or Ebay has pulled Logoman or Logoman book yet...first box break of nt I clicked on dude pulled Logoman and one hasn't been pulled out of this yet..must be super super tough pulls
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Old 11-13-2013, 10:29 AM   #29 (permalink)
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This is not pertaining to the OP as I know he busts wax and builds sets, but rather a generalization of the basketball community.

You guys are spoiled. Thats the jist of it.

You demand more, you get it. When its not enough, you complain. You want bigger, better and more content. When you get it, for the very short time it suffices before you get bored and demand more. You want more ROI, they give it to you. Then its not enough. Same issue recycling itself.

Trash it...Buy it...Bust it...Sell it...trash it again and complain Repeat after every product release!!

All we hear today is;

ROI is bad
Too expensive
Not enough content
Need more stars less filler

Followed by ... the business aspect has ruining this hobby. That might true, but reality check tells me that the collector is now the business man himself. Essentially you hate yourself.
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Old 11-13-2013, 10:30 AM   #30 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlabamaSlamma View Post
were people really arguing the ROI on immaculate would be higher than flawless? the consensus seemed to be that flawless has very consistent positive returns, while immaculate is purely feast or famine. i thought the majority of the bickering was mainly about card design. then again, theres been so many damn threads about this product that i've lost track of just about everything at this point.
^^what he said. Nobody was arguing about ROI. Immaculate has better looking cards and that is what people like to collect.
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Old 11-13-2013, 10:35 AM   #31 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Orangejello727 View Post
This is not pertaining to the OP as I know he busts wax and builds sets, but rather a generalization of the basketball community.

You guys are spoiled. Thats the jist of it.

You demand more, you get it. When its not enough, you complain. You want bigger, better and more content. When you get it, for the very short time it suffices before you get bored and demand more. You want more ROI, they give it to you. Then its not enough. Same issue recycling itself.

Trash it...Buy it...Bust it...Sell it...trash it again and complain Repeat after every product release!!

All we hear today is;

ROI is bad
Too expensive
Not enough content
Need more stars less filler

Followed by ... the business aspect has ruining this hobby. That might true, but reality check tells me that the collector is now the business man himself. Essentially you hate yourself.
this should be pinned at the top of the hobby boards.
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Old 11-13-2013, 10:37 AM   #32 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Orangejello727 View Post
This is not pertaining to the OP as I know he busts wax and builds sets, but rather a generalization of the basketball community.

You guys are spoiled. Thats the jist of it.

You demand more, you get it. When its not enough, you complain. You want bigger, better and more content. When you get it, for the very short time it suffices before you get bored and demand more. You want more ROI, they give it to you. Then its not enough. Same issue recycling itself.

Trash it...Buy it...Bust it...Sell it...trash it again and complain Repeat after every product release!!

All we hear today is;

ROI is bad
Too expensive
Not enough content
Need more stars less filler

Followed by ... the business aspect has ruining this hobby. That might true, but reality check tells me that the collector is now the business man himself. Essentially you hate yourself.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AlabamaSlamma View Post
this should be pinned at the top of the hobby boards.
Agreed. Great post.
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Old 11-13-2013, 10:46 AM   #33 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by jbarnett83 View Post
Immaculate has better looking cards and that is what people like to collect.
I disagree, as do many others. I prefer the look of the flawless cards. I don't hate the immaculate cards. I like some of them too. But on a whole I prefer the look of flawless. Point is people collect what "they" like.
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Old 11-13-2013, 10:48 AM   #34 (permalink)
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Those Immaculate previews overwhelmed us with sick logo patch. It looks great when you put all 20+ cards together like a complete puzzle. However, it is clear that some of the patch does not stand out as an individual card. You can only see half of the patch with 70% of the jersey to fill up the window.

And most important, there are just WAY too many filler players in this product.

Lastly, I do like the team color on the card. It is much better than black and white in flawless.
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Old 11-13-2013, 11:14 AM   #35 (permalink)
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opened 3 boxes this morning... overall an average break. can't decide if i want to open the other 3 boxes I have coming later today...
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Old 11-13-2013, 11:14 AM   #36 (permalink)
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I don't understand how you guys still think Flawless was a good product. Have you seen the current prices? It's been two weeks, and the product has tanked beyond belief.

You're confusing prices within the first 5 days of release with long-term success.

I think you're also forgetting what Exquisite was like. That product was filled with Ben Gordon and Ike Diogu just like Immaculate has Chris Singleton. The lasting impact of Exquisite was the high quality of the cards - which Immaculate seems to have. Flawless is an incredibly boring product outside of some of the patch autographs, which came out rarely. When the base cards are the consistently best selling items out of the product, you know something is wrong.

Don't get me wrong, the huge hits from Flawless will probably hold some value. But everything else . . . not so much.
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Old 11-13-2013, 11:21 AM   #37 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by bdrr View Post
I don't understand how you guys still think Flawless was a good product. Have you seen the current prices? It's been two weeks, and the product has tanked beyond belief.

You're confusing prices within the first 5 days of release with long-term success.

I think you're also forgetting what Exquisite was like. That product was filled with Ben Gordon and Ike Diogu just like Immaculate has Chris Singleton. The lasting impact of Exquisite was the high quality of the cards - which Immaculate seems to have. Flawless is an incredibly boring product outside of some of the patch autographs, which came out rarely. When the base cards are the consistently best selling items out of the product, you know something is wrong.

Don't get me wrong, the huge hits from Flawless will probably hold some value. But everything else . . . not so much.
I agree with you. Flawless was okay but I think Immaculate looks nicer since to me Flawless is so plain and also Immaculate has logomen and more chase cards then Flawless. Flawless was a good product I just feel Immaculate will be better IMO. Also I agree Immaculate is kind of like exquisite there's scrubs in the product but its worth it for the big hits you can get.

Last edited by Exquisite Man; 11-13-2013 at 11:26 AM.
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Old 11-13-2013, 11:30 AM   #38 (permalink)
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Apparently the collectors over seas are loving immaculate & can't get enough of it. Been told there buying it up.
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Old 11-13-2013, 11:30 AM   #39 (permalink)
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My point is more that people here who opened Flawless on the day of release and sold it all quickly seem to believe that nothing has changed since those first 5 days.

Flawless was a win on release. Everybody made money. That's great. But, I challenge you to open a box today and make a profit without hitting one of the top 20 or so cards in the product. Chances are you will lose. Huge. Hundreds.

I see people who still think their Kyrie non RC non RPA is worth $700-1000 (when they're currently getting $250-350). Durant non-patches /10 are under $200. Kobe non-patches /10 under $300.

Like . . . you better be hitting a big name auto #/5 or #/1, a Kyrie RC auto, a big 3 auto patch, a Pete/Wilt patch, or a big base because that's the only way you're going to break even on Flawless now. Remember, friends, you're in all likelihood going to end up with 4-5 of those filler cards currently worth $20-50 a pop.
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Old 11-13-2013, 11:36 AM   #40 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by bdrr View Post
I don't understand how you guys still think Flawless was a good product. Have you seen the current prices? It's been two weeks, and the product has tanked beyond belief.

You're confusing prices within the first 5 days of release with long-term success.

I think you're also forgetting what Exquisite was like. That product was filled with Ben Gordon and Ike Diogu just like Immaculate has Chris Singleton. The lasting impact of Exquisite was the high quality of the cards - which Immaculate seems to have. Flawless is an incredibly boring product outside of some of the patch autographs, which came out rarely. When the base cards are the consistently best selling items out of the product, you know something is wrong.

Don't get me wrong, the huge hits from Flawless will probably hold some value. But everything else . . . not so much.

I agree! Flawless, while limited, was boring in essence. An average design at best, with a bunch of parallels and a few auto patches. How is that exciting?! Especially at such a high price point? As bdrr said, sales have tanked since release on mostly everything except a handful of the diamond cards.

Immaculate may have a bunch of blah hits, but they also have huge logo patches, letter patches, nba logoman patches, auto logoman 1/1s, multi-logoman patch cards, acetate patch & acetate auto patch cards, etc., etc.

Flawless has gemstone base cards, auto cards and auto patch cards ... that's it.



I'm not saying Flawless is the worst product ever, but it's far from the best product ever.


As OJ said, people are judging breaks based on ROI ... not the quality of the BIG HITS of the product. That's what's exciting and interesting.

Who cares if ROI on a box of Immaculate is 20%, you have the chance at hitting a $10k Kobe Auto Logoman Patch 1/1.

Sports card wax is a gamble. If you want 100% ROI, don't gamble. Put your cash in front of you, close your eyes and reopen them, you have 100% ROI !.


Too many people are not only spoiled, but under the impression that hobby wax shouldn't be a gamble, that they deserve only top quality hits and huge ROI %. They feel entitled. Go buy a lottery ticket and when you lose go complain to the state and watch how they laugh in your face!



The top hits from Immaculate are MUCH better than the top hits out of Flawless. The worst hits from Flawless are nicer than the worst hits from Immaculate.

That's how the products are. Enjoy them for what they are! Nobody forces anyone to spend their money one way or another, and anyone who complains on a product had the choice to buy that product in the first place!:turkey::turkey:
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Old 11-13-2013, 11:38 AM   #41 (permalink)
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for whatever reason, there are several people that are scared of panini being successful. i believe thats why many tried to bring down flawless by saying immaculate is going to be better. some were just trying to bring down flawless any way they could.
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Old 11-13-2013, 11:39 AM   #42 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by paul06901 View Post
I agree! Flawless, while limited, was boring in essence. An average design at best, with a bunch of parallels and a few auto patches. How is that exciting?! Especially at such a high price point? As bdrr said, sales have tanked since release on mostly everything except a handful of the diamond cards.

Immaculate may have a bunch of blah hits, but they also have huge logo patches, letter patches, nba logoman patches, auto logoman 1/1s, multi-logoman patch cards, acetate patch & acetate auto patch cards, etc., etc.

Flawless has gemstone base cards, auto cards and auto patch cards ... that's it.



I'm not saying Flawless is the worst product ever, but it's far from the best product ever.


As OJ said, people are judging breaks based on ROI ... not the quality of the BIG HITS of the product. That's what's exciting and interesting.

Who cares if ROI on a box of Immaculate is 20%, you have the chance at hitting a $10k Kobe Auto Logoman Patch 1/1.

Sports card wax is a gamble. If you want 100% ROI, don't gamble. Put your cash in front of you, close your eyes and reopen them, you have 100% ROI !.


Too many people are not only spoiled, but under the impression that hobby wax shouldn't be a gamble, that they deserve only top quality hits and huge ROI %. They feel entitled. Go buy a lottery ticket and when you lose go complain to the state and watch how they laugh in your face!



The top hits from Immaculate are MUCH better than the top hits out of Flawless. The worst hits from Flawless are nicer than the worst hits from Immaculate.

That's how the products are. Enjoy them for what they are! Nobody forces anyone to spend their money one way or another, and anyone who complains on a product had the choice to buy that product in the first place!:turkey::turkey:

Good post. People were spoiled by the initial ROI on Flawless, and really neither understand nor care about how that ROI came about. They also inexplicably believe it remains constant. The return on Immaculate will be infinitely better than the return on NT, and the cards are much more collectible.
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Old 11-13-2013, 11:40 AM   #43 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by paul06901 View Post
I agree! Flawless, while limited, was boring in essence. An average design at best, with a bunch of parallels and a few auto patches. How is that exciting?! Especially at such a high price point? As bdrr said, sales have tanked since release on mostly everything except a handful of the diamond cards.

Immaculate may have a bunch of blah hits, but they also have huge logo patches, letter patches, nba logoman patches, auto logoman 1/1s, multi-logoman patch cards, acetate patch & acetate auto patch cards, etc., etc.

Flawless has gemstone base cards, auto cards and auto patch cards ... that's it.



I'm not saying Flawless is the worst product ever, but it's far from the best product ever.


As OJ said, people are judging breaks based on ROI ... not the quality of the BIG HITS of the product. That's what's exciting and interesting.

Who cares if ROI on a box of Immaculate is 20%, you have the chance at hitting a $10k Kobe Auto Logoman Patch 1/1.

Sports card wax is a gamble. If you want 100% ROI, don't gamble. Put your cash in front of you, close your eyes and reopen them, you have 100% ROI !.


Too many people are not only spoiled, but under the impression that hobby wax shouldn't be a gamble, that they deserve only top quality hits and huge ROI %. They feel entitled. Go buy a lottery ticket and when you lose go complain to the state and watch how they laugh in your face!



The top hits from Immaculate are MUCH better than the top hits out of Flawless. The worst hits from Flawless are nicer than the worst hits from Immaculate.

That's how the products are. Enjoy them for what they are! Nobody forces anyone to spend their money one way or another, and anyone who complains on a product had the choice to buy that product in the first place!:turkey::turkey:
Agree with this post.....that is all
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Old 11-13-2013, 11:45 AM   #44 (permalink)
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Sports card wax is a gamble. If you want 100% ROI, don't gamble. Put your cash in front of you, close your eyes and reopen them, you have 100% ROI!
technically, your ROI is zero, but who's keeping track
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Old 11-13-2013, 11:48 AM   #45 (permalink)
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technically, your ROI is zero, but who's keeping track
Don't try or bother to teach. I already learn it that most people in the forum have no basic math knowledge.
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Old 11-13-2013, 11:49 AM   #46 (permalink)
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Good post. People were spoiled by the initial ROI on Flawless, and really neither understand nor care about how that ROI came about. They also inexplicably believe it remains constant. The return on Immaculate will be infinitely better than the return on NT.
I don't know about that.

I think there will be a lot of Immaculate boxes that give out like $70 worth of cards.

Flawless boxes are what? $1,800 and Immaculate $400?

Even with the declining sales I'd say it's not too difficult to get $900 out of a Flawless box. Usually the the base go between $100-$200, and the other incased card on low end is probably a good $300. So right off the bat you've got almost $500 from those two, and then you just need $50 each to get 50%.

Immaculate on the other hand has base cards that won't be worth anything really, jersey cards that will sell for $5 and lots of bad names.

I agree you could hit it huge in immaculate, but I'd imagine many people struggle to break the $100 mark with this product after a few weeks when sales even out.
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Old 11-13-2013, 11:53 AM   #47 (permalink)
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Why compare immaculate to flawless

I MEAN YOU SHOULD BE COMPARING IT TO
SELECT
PREFERRED
PRIZM

IMACCULATE IS A $200 A BOX PRODUCT
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Old 11-13-2013, 11:59 AM   #48 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by pepsiporch View Post
Why compare immaculate to flawless

I MEAN YOU SHOULD BE COMPARING IT TO
SELECT
PREFERRED
PRIZM

IMACCULATE IS A $200 A BOX PRODUCT
Have you just not been paying attention?
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Old 11-13-2013, 12:01 PM   #49 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by paul06901 View Post
I agree! Flawless, while limited, was boring in essence. An average design at best, with a bunch of parallels and a few auto patches. How is that exciting?! Especially at such a high price point? As bdrr said, sales have tanked since release on mostly everything except a handful of the diamond cards.

Immaculate may have a bunch of blah hits, but they also have huge logo patches, letter patches, nba logoman patches, auto logoman 1/1s, multi-logoman patch cards, acetate patch & acetate auto patch cards, etc., etc.

Flawless has gemstone base cards, auto cards and auto patch cards ... that's it.



I'm not saying Flawless is the worst product ever, but it's far from the best product ever.


As OJ said, people are judging breaks based on ROI ... not the quality of the BIG HITS of the product. That's what's exciting and interesting.

Who cares if ROI on a box of Immaculate is 20%, you have the chance at hitting a $10k Kobe Auto Logoman Patch 1/1.

Sports card wax is a gamble. If you want 100% ROI, don't gamble. Put your cash in front of you, close your eyes and reopen them, you have 100% ROI !.


Too many people are not only spoiled, but under the impression that hobby wax shouldn't be a gamble, that they deserve only top quality hits and huge ROI %. They feel entitled. Go buy a lottery ticket and when you lose go complain to the state and watch how they laugh in your face!



The top hits from Immaculate are MUCH better than the top hits out of Flawless. The worst hits from Flawless are nicer than the worst hits from Immaculate.

That's how the products are. Enjoy them for what they are! Nobody forces anyone to spend their money one way or another, and anyone who complains on a product had the choice to buy that product in the first place!:turkey::turkey:
Very well said Agreed.
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Old 11-13-2013, 12:03 PM   #50 (permalink)
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I don't know about that.

I think there will be a lot of Immaculate boxes that give out like $70 worth of cards.

Flawless boxes are what? $1,800 and Immaculate $400?

Even with the declining sales I'd say it's not too difficult to get $900 out of a Flawless box. Usually the the base go between $100-$200, and the other incased card on low end is probably a good $300. So right off the bat you've got almost $500 from those two, and then you just need $50 each to get 50%.

Immaculate on the other hand has base cards that won't be worth anything really, jersey cards that will sell for $5 and lots of bad names.

I agree you could hit it huge in immaculate, but I'd imagine many people struggle to break the $100 mark with this product after a few weeks when sales even out.
I haven't seen a single $70 box yet out of roughly 10 cases I've seen busted.
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