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Old 08-01-2010, 12:32 PM   #26 (permalink)
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Gee another. "matt wheeler is right and everyone else is STUPIDand WRONG" thread. This should be good. Have fun guys!
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Old 08-01-2010, 12:43 PM   #27 (permalink)
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I'm with mwheeler on this one. With auctions the ending price is what the person who bid the second highest amount was willing to pay. Say there was a card I really wanted (1/1) and somebody put it up for auction. I was willing to pay $800 but the auction only ended at $300. But in a different scenario I won the BIN at $800. Is the card worth $300 or $800?
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Old 08-01-2010, 12:45 PM   #28 (permalink)
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Someone made an awesome deal!
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Old 08-01-2010, 12:53 PM   #29 (permalink)
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I'm with mwheeler on this one. With auctions the ending price is what the person who bid the second highest amount was willing to pay. Say there was a card I really wanted (1/1) and somebody put it up for auction. I was willing to pay $800 but the auction only ended at $300. But in a different scenario I won the BIN at $800. Is the card worth $300 or $800?
Exactly. This is common sense.

I honestly don't get why people choose not to see it.

Now...if a card is worth what the 2nd highest bidder is willing to pay, then nearly all ebay auctions determine a card's true value.

So which is it? Is a card's value what someone is willing to pay? Or is a card's value only slightly above what the 2nd highest bidder is willing to pay?

Seriously. Let's get some feedback on this. What do you guys think the true definition is?
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Old 08-01-2010, 12:56 PM   #30 (permalink)
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Gee another. "matt wheeler is right and everyone else is STUPIDand WRONG" thread. This should be good. Have fun guys!
Why are you calling everyone else "STUPID" CBO? I sure as heck didn't. And last I checked, I'm only disagreeing with a few people...a far cry from "everyone else".
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Old 08-01-2010, 01:37 PM   #31 (permalink)
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So which is it? Is a card's value what someone is willing to pay? Or is a card's value only slightly above what the 2nd highest bidder is willing to pay?
Personally I don't think cards have a "true" value. They are like the stock market. With that being said, let's look at reality. Ebay is not the end all for sell value and Beckett is not the bible for pricing. What about other sites that sell cards such as COMC or Sportlots and the many more that I have yet to come across. COMC you can sell a Card, with Beckett Value because that is how COMC prices the cards, at $500. Someone with the same card comes in and has a "sale" for say 80% and sells the card for $100. That same card is kept on COMC and the person that bought it has it at $500 with a 50% sale and then sells it for $250. What is the true value of that card. $500, $100, $250. The same card sells on ebay for BIN $750 because Joe Schmo does not know about COMC or the gazillion other Sites to Buy/Sell/Trade Cards.

As far as purchasing a card for $200 when you were willing to pay $500. I guarantee there is someone that has that auction on their watch list and is kicking themselves in the a** for not placing a bid cause they may have thought they could get it for $225 not knowing you placed a $500 bid on it. You made out great in my opinion.
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Old 08-01-2010, 02:30 PM   #32 (permalink)
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To me, the set is valued at around $1000-$1500 when you factor in the initial cost of the product. I pulled this set because I decided I wanted to keep it and the hard work that came along with it.

I didn't see the lowball auction until about 12 hours ago.

Look the bottom line is this. There are people who open high end product and then there's the rats that scavenge off of what is pulled. Either you open or you scavenge. You can't do both because people who open product are far more willing to pay above and beyond to acquire a card they want. And people who scavenge, do that, they scavenge the remains. Rarely do they haul out the big bucks to buy something they want. They would rather wait 3 years and buy a card for $20 when they could've had it 3 years ago for $50. I don't have time for that, go scavenge elsewhere.

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Old 08-01-2010, 02:37 PM   #33 (permalink)
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To me, the set is valued at around $1000-$1500 when you factor in the initial cost of the product. I pulled this set because I decided I wanted to keep it and the hard work that came along with it.

I didn't see the lowball auction until about 12 hours ago.

Look the bottom line is this. There are people who open high end product and then there's the rats that scavenge off of what is pulled. Either you open or you scavenge. You can't do both because people who open product are far more willing to pay above and beyond to acquire a card they want. And people who scavenge, do that, they scavenge the remains. Rarely do they haul out the big bucks to buy something they want. They would rather wait 3 years and buy a card for $20 when they could've had it 3 years ago for $50. I don't have time for that, go scavenge elsewhere.
So you don't think there are true collectors out there who pay top dollar for cards of their player/set without pulling it?
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Old 08-01-2010, 02:53 PM   #34 (permalink)
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So you don't think there are true collectors out there who pay top dollar for cards of their player/set without pulling it?


No, I didn't say that. What I said was collectors have 1 of 2 tendencies.

1. They pay what they need to.
2. They cheap out and scavenge.

There really is no in-between.
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Old 08-01-2010, 02:58 PM   #35 (permalink)
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No, I didn't say that. What I said was collectors have 1 of 2 tendencies.

1. They pay what they need to.
2. They cheap out and scavenge.

There really is no in-between.
But you pretty much said if you don't open boxes you cheap out and scavenge, even though I don't bust boxes and I pay what I need to for my PC...
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Old 08-01-2010, 03:01 PM   #36 (permalink)
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To me, the set is valued at around $1000-$1500 when you factor in the initial cost of the product. I pulled this set because I decided I wanted to keep it and the hard work that came along with it.

I didn't see the lowball auction until about 12 hours ago.

Look the bottom line is this. There are people who open high end product and then there's the rats that scavenge off of what is pulled. Either you open or you scavenge. You can't do both because people who open product are far more willing to pay above and beyond to acquire a card they want. And people who scavenge, do that, they scavenge the remains. Rarely do they haul out the big bucks to buy something they want. They would rather wait 3 years and buy a card for $20 when they could've had it 3 years ago for $50. I don't have time for that, go scavenge elsewhere.
Dude who the hell do you think you are calling people lowballers, rats, and scavengers because they have a different idea or method of collecting cards than you do. I make enough money to open Hi-End cases and buy expensive singles I want for my PC. I also clean up on buying HUGE amounts of Hi-End singles cheap (or as you would call scavenging) and flipping for some sweet profit, which is what I enjoy most about this hobby. How about if I called someone a real dumb-azz for spending $1500 to put together a $300 set, would that be ok???
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Old 08-01-2010, 03:08 PM   #37 (permalink)
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These statements are a little off-base concerning me as well.

I bust high-end cases, and I buy high-end singles. Sometimes I get those singles cheap, and other times I probably over-pay for them.
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Old 08-01-2010, 03:14 PM   #38 (permalink)
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Exactly. This is common sense.

I honestly don't get why people choose not to see it.

Now...if a card is worth what the 2nd highest bidder is willing to pay, then nearly all ebay auctions determine a card's true value.

So which is it? Is a card's value what someone is willing to pay? Or is a card's value only slightly above what the 2nd highest bidder is willing to pay?

Seriously. Let's get some feedback on this. What do you guys think the true definition is?
Matt,
This common sense is getting old. The only people who ever have common sense on this forum are the people who agree with you. That is just BS and the most far fetches thing I have ever heard.

The market reflect the price of anything. That's how it's always been. Just like stocks. Items fluctuate from a day today basis and you will come to and average price basis. I have a certain action figure in my inventory that I sell a lot of. I probably sell 2-3 of them a month. I have it set up as a BIN/BO and they go anywhere between $32-38ea. So what's it worth? I've also seen this figure go for more and less. But I control it because I use a BIN/BO option.

I can't believe for two seconds that anyone would think an item is worth what someone "might" pay for an it. When people price an item they go back and look at what it has sold for or similar items like it. They don't say, "Hey I wonder what he might have paid for it". The mark is paid on real sale value. Not hope dreams and what ifs. Just because it might have a higher value to you, doesn't mean it has a higher market value. There may not be enough demand at the price to justify the increase, so the price it ended at was correct. However, maybe tomorrow it would end for more? Either way it doesn't matter. Right now at this very second, that is the market value of that item. That is common sense.
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Old 08-01-2010, 03:17 PM   #39 (permalink)
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Dude who the hell do you think you are calling people lowballers, rats, and scavengers because they have a different idea or method of collecting cards than you do. I make enough money to open Hi-End cases and buy expensive singles I want for my PC. I also clean up on buying HUGE amounts of Hi-End singles cheap (or as you would call scavenging) and flipping for some sweet profit, which is what I enjoy most about this hobby. How about if I called someone a real dumb-azz for spending $1500 to put together a $300 set, would that be ok???
But you're still willing to pay the money if you need to.
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Old 08-01-2010, 04:42 PM   #40 (permalink)
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Matt,
This common sense is getting old. The only people who ever have common sense on this forum are the people who agree with you. That is just BS and the most far fetches thing I have ever heard.

The market reflect the price of anything. That's how it's always been. Just like stocks. Items fluctuate from a day today basis and you will come to and average price basis. I have a certain action figure in my inventory that I sell a lot of. I probably sell 2-3 of them a month. I have it set up as a BIN/BO and they go anywhere between $32-38ea. So what's it worth? I've also seen this figure go for more and less. But I control it because I use a BIN/BO option.

I can't believe for two seconds that anyone would think an item is worth what someone "might" pay for an it. When people price an item they go back and look at what it has sold for or similar items like it. They don't say, "Hey I wonder what he might have paid for it". The mark is paid on real sale value. Not hope dreams and what ifs. Just because it might have a higher value to you, doesn't mean it has a higher market value. There may not be enough demand at the price to justify the increase, so the price it ended at was correct. However, maybe tomorrow it would end for more? Either way it doesn't matter. Right now at this very second, that is the market value of that item. That is common sense.
I'm honestly sorry when I say I can't agree with you completely here. I do agree about the stock market. However, when I'm talking about rare cards, (and maybe that's where our differences lie..."rare" cards), I don't believe at all that an auction format that runs for 3, 5, 7 or 10 days determines the value of that card. All it determines is how much the 2nd highest bidder was willing to pay "who happened to see that card during that small window of time on that 1 particular auction site".

Here's another example. Let's see if this makes sense to you guys. This is a true story:

I offered a guy $500 for a SK 1/1 cut auto card off-line. He thought it was worth more than that, so he decided to run it on ebay at auction. It ended up selling for under $200.

So, what was that 1/1 card worth? Was it worth the $500 I offered originally, AND the same price I bid at auction? Or is it only worth less than $200? Because if it's not worth $500, then a card's value is not "what someone is willing to pay". Using this example, the definition could be...a card is worth slightly more than what the 2nd highest bidder is willing to pay.

If you disagree with me, of course that's fine. But can you come up with a more accurate definition?
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Old 08-01-2010, 04:58 PM   #41 (permalink)
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I'm honestly sorry when I say I can't agree with you completely here. I do agree about the stock market. However, when I'm talking about rare cards, (and maybe that's where our differences lie..."rare" cards), I don't believe at all that an auction format that runs for 3, 5, 7 or 10 days determines the value of that card. All it determines is how much the 2nd highest bidder was willing to pay "who happened to see that card during that small window of time on that 1 particular auction site".

Here's another example. Let's see if this makes sense to you guys. This is a true story:

I offered a guy $500 for a SK 1/1 cut auto card off-line. He thought it was worth more than that, so he decided to run it on ebay at auction. It ended up selling for under $200.

So, what was that 1/1 card worth? Was it worth the $500 I offered originally, AND the same price I bid at auction? Or is it only worth less than $200? Because if it's not worth $500, then a card's value is not "what someone is willing to pay". Using this example, the definition could be...a card is worth slightly more than what the 2nd highest bidder is willing to pay.

If you disagree with me, of course that's fine. But can you come up with a more accurate definition?
The flaw that I see with that interpretation of value is that this SK 1/1 card is more valuable to a dedicated SK collector such as yourself versus somone who may just be buying for the player on the card perhaps. There are too many variables to be able to come up with a precise definition of value. For now I believe that a working defintion would be what price a card brings at auction over a period of time.
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Old 08-01-2010, 05:12 PM   #42 (permalink)
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I'm honestly sorry when I say I can't agree with you completely here. I do agree about the stock market. However, when I'm talking about rare cards, (and maybe that's where our differences lie..."rare" cards), I don't believe at all that an auction format that runs for 3, 5, 7 or 10 days determines the value of that card. All it determines is how much the 2nd highest bidder was willing to pay "who happened to see that card during that small window of time on that 1 particular auction site".

Here's another example. Let's see if this makes sense to you guys. This is a true story:

I offered a guy $500 for a SK 1/1 cut auto card off-line. He thought it was worth more than that, so he decided to run it on ebay at auction. It ended up selling for under $200.

So, what was that 1/1 card worth? Was it worth the $500 I offered originally, AND the same price I bid at auction? Or is it only worth less than $200? Because if it's not worth $500, then a card's value is not "what someone is willing to pay". Using this example, the definition could be...a card is worth slightly more than what the 2nd highest bidder is willing to pay.

If you disagree with me, of course that's fine. But can you come up with a more accurate definition?
You agree with the stock market analogy, but you cant use that same theory for selling and buying cards? Why not? It's the same basics that sets the standards for supply and demand and pricing anything.

In your experience, the card was worth what you paid for it. Since nothing else had sold like it- that will be the value established to that item. Now, if it gets sold in the future and it goes for more - then a new value will be given to that card. You could tell me that you would pay 2k for that card, so that's what is should be worth. But we all know that's not how determining that real market value of anything is worth.

Any item can only be determined it's value by what the same items or similar items of it's nature has sold for. You can give an item an average price run and include quality of an item along with inflation to help create a market value. But at no point in time can a market include what someone might pay for an item until it sells for that price.

The guy was a fool to not take the $500 offer. He could have encouraged the market. He "could" have added value to the card. Problem is, he didn't and there wasn't another buyer to help add value to that card. So it sold for $200. At this time and moment- that's what history will record the value of the item at, not what you "would" have paid for it. Maybe if this item were to ever get sold again, it might go for more - then it would have gain value and you made a good investment. But we cant go making up values.
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Old 08-01-2010, 05:36 PM   #43 (permalink)
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You agree with the stock market analogy, but you cant use that same theory for selling and buying cards? Why not? It's the same basics that sets the standards for supply and demand and pricing anything.
Because the exact same stocks, nearly all given stocks, are traded every single day the market is open. Cards on the other hand are not.

How many of a card numbered to 10 do you see selling on a daily basis? How about a 1/1 card? Obviously there's a very real difference when comparing the stock market to rarer sports card sales.

We will have to agree to disagree because there is no way I'll ever agree that a card I offered $500 for is only worth $200 while my offer is still out there. Once I purchase the card, perhaps the value drops to around $200 or less, but while it's still for sale, and my offer is still good, I know that card is worth at least $500.
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Old 08-01-2010, 05:39 PM   #44 (permalink)
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The flaw that I see with that interpretation of value is that this SK 1/1 card is more valuable to a dedicated SK collector such as yourself versus somone who may just be buying for the player on the card perhaps. There are too many variables to be able to come up with a precise definition of value. For now I believe that a working defintion would be what price a card brings at auction over a period of time.
I would accept that definition if that's what the majority wants to agree with. I just keep hearing that a card is worth what someone else is willing to pay for it. Clearly we can all see that both your definition and this one can't both be true in nearly all cases.

I am very happy to accept ebay as the market value for a card. Trust me, I could pick up cards a LOT cheaper if I could convince everyone that ebay prices are standard.
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Old 08-01-2010, 06:01 PM   #45 (permalink)
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Why does value make such a big deal to you if you are only a "Collector"?

True value of a card is defined by what it sells for in the NEXT transaction. That $500 card may sell for $1,000 or it may sell for $50 if left to run in a $.99 auction. Heck you yourself may spill your Coke on the card and render it worthless.

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Because the exact same stocks, nearly all given stocks, are traded every single day the market is open. Cards on the other hand are not.

How many of a card numbered to 10 do you see selling on a daily basis? How about a 1/1 card? Obviously there's a very real difference when comparing the stock market to rarer sports card sales.

We will have to agree to disagree because there is no way I'll ever agree that a card I offered $500 for is only worth $200 while my offer is still out there. Once I purchase the card, perhaps the value drops to around $200 or less, but while it's still for sale, and my offer is still good, I know that card is worth at least $500.
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Old 08-01-2010, 06:15 PM   #46 (permalink)
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There's no one "TRUE" price. I hate that term.

If I sell an item on eBay, 7 day auction for $0.99, that's once price.

If I sell the same item on eBay via BIN/BO for $500, that's another price.

If I sell the exact same item at a show for $300 cash, that's a third price.

None of these sales is definitive of price, and people who try to say that one price is the TRUE price are typically just trying to serve their own interests (as either buyer or seller).

The attempt to analogize eBay price to the stock market is ludicrous. They're completely different models of price determination (second price Vickrey auction vs. bid/ask) and completely different animals with regard to the types of goods sold (unique vs. commodity).

Let's say there's a ballplayer (Adam Morrison) with only two fans: Mom and Dad. No other fans in the whole world. Mom is rich and Dad is poor, so whenever a card of his comes out, Mom is willing to pay $500 and his Dad is only willing to pay $0.99.

If a person who has this player's card sells it via eBay auction, it will close at $0.99 every time because Dad can't afford to bid higher. And that's a valid price for THAT PARTICULAR STYLE OF AUCTION. However, it's not a "magic" price.

If that same person does a $500 BIN, it'll sell at $500 and that's a valid price too.

Once a person starts trying to convince me that ONE of those prices is more valid, they've completely lost me.
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Old 08-01-2010, 06:43 PM   #47 (permalink)
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Why does value make such a big deal to you if you are only a "Collector"?
Maybe I like to be accurate when insuring my "collection".

I love numbers. I enjoy analyzing things associated with numbers. I have always been intrigued with this argument.

You know, my $200 and $500 card example isn't too far off from what Beckett does. They have a low and a high value, and the low value is usually somewhat close to 40% to 60% of the high value.
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Old 08-01-2010, 08:25 PM   #48 (permalink)
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Maybe I like to be accurate when insuring my "collection".

I love numbers. I enjoy analyzing things associated with numbers. I have always been intrigued with this argument.

You know, my $200 and $500 card example isn't too far off from what Beckett does. They have a low and a high value, and the low value is usually somewhat close to 40% to 60% of the high value.
Since you love numbers I'd say you offering $500 when others wouldn't go over $200 makes you an outlier and not a reflection of an accurate value of the item.
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Old 08-01-2010, 08:35 PM   #49 (permalink)
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I forgot cards are worth what Dr. Jim (Beckett) tells us they are worth.

Part of the fun of this hobby is knowing the value of your collection, what cards are undervalued and should be purchased, etc.
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Old 08-01-2010, 10:31 PM   #50 (permalink)
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Because the exact same stocks, nearly all given stocks, are traded every single day the market is open. Cards on the other hand are not.

How many of a card numbered to 10 do you see selling on a daily basis? How about a 1/1 card? Obviously there's a very real difference when comparing the stock market to rarer sports card sales.

We will have to agree to disagree because there is no way I'll ever agree that a card I offered $500 for is only worth $200 while my offer is still out there. Once I purchase the card, perhaps the value drops to around $200 or less, but while it's still for sale, and my offer is still good, I know that card is worth at least $500.
But you still need the demand to get it to that price. You would have over paid based on the price the card sold for. Supply and demand proves this theory correct. There was not enough demand in this auction to justify a $500 price tag.

Here is something funny though. If that card would have sold for $500 out right, well that's what market value would be on the card. It's cut and dry. So, when you go to insure this card - do you insure it for $200 or $500? I'm pretty sure if it was destroyed - you would have a tough time proving it is worth $500 considering you paid $200 for it.

I refuse to get in a pissing contest, and we can agree to disagree. I just cant justify putting a higher value on something just because someone would pay higher for something than they did. It goes against everything supply and demand stands for.
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