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Old 07-10-2010, 11:58 AM   #26 (permalink)
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I say buy this product while you can if it's something you're interested in because this concept won't be around long. I sincerely doubt it's 100% legal.

Just think, this kind of thing can pop up everywhere if it's allowed. I might as well go out and buy a bunch of collectible coins, and a hand full of very rare, very expensive ones, package them all up, and sell to people as a grab bag style offering, making myself an unlimited amount of cash. That's what this Razor Rookie Retro product is, and if/when the Attorney Generals catch wind of it, it will no longer be available.

This is not a new concept, it's just a relatively new concept for a card company to do it. Programs like this have been shut down many times. He might get away with this one, but sometime in the future, this will cease.
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Old 07-10-2010, 01:13 PM   #27 (permalink)
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I say buy this product while you can if it's something you're interested in because this concept won't be around long. I sincerely doubt it's 100% legal.

Just think, this kind of thing can pop up everywhere if it's allowed. I might as well go out and buy a bunch of collectible coins, and a hand full of very rare, very expensive ones, package them all up, and sell to people as a grab bag style offering, making myself an unlimited amount of cash. That's what this Razor Rookie Retro product is, and if/when the Attorney Generals catch wind of it, it will no longer be available.

This is not a new concept, it's just a relatively new concept for a card company to do it. Programs like this have been shut down many times. He might get away with this one, but sometime in the future, this will cease.
Just curious, but under what laws would something like this be shut down? A person (or company) owns the cards they are selling, just because it is unknown which cards are in which packages, that doesn't make it illegal. It's exactly what the card companies do, especially with the cards that are 1 in multi case hits, or the cards that are 1 per case. You don't know which box or case those particular cards are in (and those of course are the big hits - $$$), so what's the difference here? Not arguing or anything, simply asking because I know of no laws that would make something like this illegal. I'm not a lawyer though, so basically I'm just searching for information and trying to learn something here.
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Old 07-10-2010, 02:07 PM   #28 (permalink)
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Just curious, but under what laws would something like this be shut down? A person (or company) owns the cards they are selling, just because it is unknown which cards are in which packages, that doesn't make it illegal. It's exactly what the card companies do, especially with the cards that are 1 in multi case hits, or the cards that are 1 per case. You don't know which box or case those particular cards are in (and those of course are the big hits - $$$), so what's the difference here? Not arguing or anything, simply asking because I know of no laws that would make something like this illegal. I'm not a lawyer though, so basically I'm just searching for information and trying to learn something here.
No problem at all. I'm no lawyer either.

You asked what's the difference between this and what other card companies do...

Other card companies actually make their own cards and sell them in every pack. There's nothing wrong with making a product and selling it. However, have you noticed how these card companies allow you to send in for insert cards through the mail for free? They have to do this to accommodate the anti-gambling laws. Many places frown upon you "having" to spend money on a shot at getting something of value other than what's in every pack. Now notice how this Razor Retro product has no cards made by Razor in each pack. Notice how there is no mail-in offer for free "insert cards".

Trust me, what Razor is doing is vastly different than what other card companies are doing, and it's my opinion that a product like this will not be on the market in the years to come. Again, it's just an opinion. I am not a lawyer. It just makes sense to me, that's all.
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Old 07-10-2010, 03:56 PM   #29 (permalink)
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I believe Razor is a California based company? Below is the california gaming code pertaining to trading cards. I'm not a lawyer, but I would think if it could be proven that the advertised hits are not in circulation, it could mean big federal trouble for the copmany.

Penal Code Sec.319.

A lottery is any scheme for the disposal or distribution of property by chance, among persons who have paid or promised to pay any valuable consideration for the chance of obtaining such property or a portion of it, or for any share or any interest in such property, upon any agreement, understanding, or expectation that it is to be distributed or disposed of by lot or chance, whether called a lottery, raffle, or gift enterprise, or by whatever name the same may be known.

Penal Code Sec. 319.3.

319.3. (a) In addition to Section 319, a lottery also shall include a grab bag game which is a scheme whereby, for the disposal or distribution of sports trading cards by chance, a person pays valuable consideration to purchase a sports trading card grab bag with the understanding that the purchaser has a chance to win a designated prize or prizes listed by the seller as being contained in one or more, but not all, of the grab bags.

(b) For purposes of this section, the following definitions shall apply:

(1) "Sports trading card grab bag " means a sealed package which contains one or more sports trading cards that have been removed from the manufacturer's original packaging. A "sports trading card grab bag" does not include a sweepstakes, or procedure for the distribution of any sports trading card of value by lot or by chance, which is not unlawful under other provisions of law.

(2) "Sports trading card " means any card produced for use in commerce that contains a company name or logo, or both, and an image, representation, or facsimile of one or more players or other team member or members in any pose, and that is produced pursuant to an appropriate licensing agreement.
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Old 07-10-2010, 10:42 PM   #30 (permalink)
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No problem at all. I'm no lawyer either.

You asked what's the difference between this and what other card companies do...

Other card companies actually make their own cards and sell them in every pack. There's nothing wrong with making a product and selling it. However, have you noticed how these card companies allow you to send in for insert cards through the mail for free? They have to do this to accommodate the anti-gambling laws. Many places frown upon you "having" to spend money on a shot at getting something of value other than what's in every pack. Now notice how this Razor Retro product has no cards made by Razor in each pack. Notice how there is no mail-in offer for free "insert cards".

Trust me, what Razor is doing is vastly different than what other card companies are doing, and it's my opinion that a product like this will not be on the market in the years to come. Again, it's just an opinion. I am not a lawyer. It just makes sense to me, that's all.
Thanks!

To counter-discuss though, you mentioned the "print and sell" not being illegal, but there's nothing illegal about buying a product and reselling it either, which is what Razor is doing (not defending them of course, just talking).

True and good point about the wrapper redemption program. Curious to know if Razor (or any company that does something like this) is subject to those same terms since it is simply a resale of a product and not an original print run.

True, what Razor is doing is different from the original print run, but I just don't see how reselling a product is illegal. There's the obvious as far as alcohol, tobacco, and firearms due to the seller rules and laws, but trading cards? I just don't see it here.

Maybe something will come of this though and the law will either shut it down (confirming it is illegal), or ignore it (confirming it is legal), and then we'll know for sure. Heck, someone posted in this thread that someone from Razor reads the forums, maybe they can give us an answer? Oddly enough, I live pretty darn close to them. Didn't realize they were right here until I saw this thread. Or if there are any lawyers out there?
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Old 07-10-2010, 10:58 PM   #31 (permalink)
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but there's nothing illegal about buying a product and reselling it either, which is what Razor is doing (not defending them of course, just talking).
No, this is not what they are doing.

It's not simply buying and reselling. What Razor is doing is buying, repackaging, and then selling without you knowing what you're buying. They are telling you that you could hit something big, which is true, but in reality, the majority of people won't make back their money spent. Therefore, this is a form of gambling, not simply buying and re-selling.

Hopefully this clears it up a little better.
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Old 07-11-2010, 12:31 AM   #32 (permalink)
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So are you saying all of the things at Target and Wal Mart with random hits etc of cards made by other companies is illegal? They show me pictures of good cards that I can get but I dont. Its basically the same concept. The Razor vault products had boxes inside from Topps, Inkworks, Artbox, Rittenhouse etc etc etc. They said I could get Twilight but I never did. 09 Vault has been over a year and Gray isnt in the pen yet. I agree if the hits arent in there then he has some issues. With the track record of his company would any of us be surprised? People who buy this product are asking to get burnt considering one of his main cards he was already trying to sell lol.
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Old 07-11-2010, 01:38 AM   #33 (permalink)
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No, this is not what they are doing.

It's not simply buying and reselling. What Razor is doing is buying, repackaging, and then selling without you knowing what you're buying. They are telling you that you could hit something big, which is true, but in reality, the majority of people won't make back their money spent. Therefore, this is a form of gambling, not simply buying and re-selling.

Hopefully this clears it up a little better.
*Shrug*

You don't know what you are getting with any sealed box of cards.

Granted, courts love to throw around the term "gambling" when it doesn't apply (like buying cards, playing poker, etc), so they may rule that way but they really shouldn't.
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Old 07-11-2010, 02:31 AM   #34 (permalink)
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Curious, do the "Famous Fabrics" releases have wrapper redemptions? If not, how do they get around the "gambling" stuff? If yes, do any releases not have redemptions (Sportskings, the autographed tennis balls, anything?), and if so, how are they getting around the "gambling" aspect?
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Old 07-11-2010, 10:12 AM   #35 (permalink)
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Brian Gray with Razor recently announced this:

1> 2010 RAZOR ROOKIE RETRO
This product is being met with tremendous excitement and considerable interest. We are rapidly approaching sold out status. In addition to the graded card per box, each and every box will contain a 2010 Razor signed card never before released of one of our exclusive players!!!

I knew he'd have to do something to make this more legal.
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Old 07-11-2010, 04:11 PM   #36 (permalink)
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Great idea, Razor. I think I'll start grading all of my cards and selling them in pack form for $200 a pop. Why waste time putting the actual cards on ebay?
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Old 07-13-2010, 10:37 AM   #37 (permalink)
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im preordering a case of this!! i cant wait to hit some donk rookie!! NICE
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Old 07-13-2010, 05:57 PM   #38 (permalink)
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im preordering a case of this!! i cant wait to hit some donk rookie!! NICE
You better get it now while it's on special! I just bought one of the 2 they have.
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Old 07-16-2010, 08:32 PM   #39 (permalink)
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So I placed my order two days ago at $1389, now I see BLOWOUT has the cases on sale for $1350?, wtf I want a $39 refund
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Old 07-17-2010, 01:42 AM   #40 (permalink)
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Heck with $39. Why are people buying this after seeing the owner with one of the cards FROM THE SELL SHEET still for sale on eBay AFTER the sheet was released. Do we really think these cards will make it in the product? Has anyone seen the top card supposedly in Legends of the Diamond? The top cut in Razor Poker? I could go on and on but wont. This product would be cool if the company producing it had an ounce of integrity.
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Old 07-17-2010, 01:45 PM   #41 (permalink)
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we will have to wait and see.
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Old 07-17-2010, 02:47 PM   #42 (permalink)
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There's no way that the Strasburg won't be pulled. There's only 1800 boxes of this stuff being made, so it has to be pulled.
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Old 07-17-2010, 04:54 PM   #43 (permalink)
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The card you posted earlier that was on Ebay was for sell before the whole Razor Rookie Retro concept and they forgot to pull it from Ebay. I think I read this on FCB.

I have been all over the web for that Stu Ungar Cut and haven't heard of it. I opened myself several cases without luck. With only 299 cases of 12 boxes it might be out somewhere in a PC. Maybe still packed? I would not start telling it never made it to the packs tough. If you compare to the 2007 Poker release I would say hits were in the packs. Not in 2007. I think I have seen enough of 2007 case cracking to say they weren't packed, but in 2010 it's different.

I honestly think you would need a bunch of lawers to determine if what Razor is doing is against the law. Might be different from one state to another, same thing from a country to another. I'm no lawyers neither, but I don't see how it is different from other card product up on the market. Cards are lotery period. Stop hidding behind wrappers and redemption. When I buy a box I'm putting at risk a certain amount of money hoping for the big hit. I have no idea where I will end up in return.

When I'm buying a chocolate bar, I know what I will get and how much it's costing me. Cards are different and I don't believe they could established in court enough difference between Razor activities and other cards companies to shut down this type of product.

Of course I might be wrong, but I know one thing for sure, Razor ran a legal background check on this prior to release. The addition of some of their own "exclusive" cards are probably the conlusion from their legal advice they get.

Like it or not, Razor is moving the water in this hobby swamp. I think at the end they will bring up something good to the hobby. One thing for sure, since this hobby is acting like a casino does, they should be ruled by the same intergrity process. Maybe that's what Razor will bring, integrity reinforcement in the hobby.

*sorry for my english. 1st language is french.
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Old 07-18-2010, 01:09 AM   #44 (permalink)
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Did they forget they had an ebay name with a ton of stuff listed that they stated was in Razor vault? Were they mistaken by producing a 3k a pack product with a TON of fake autographs in it? Do yourself a favor and dont argue for this company when it comes to integrity.
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Old 07-18-2010, 05:51 PM   #45 (permalink)
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You better get it now while it's on special! I just bought one of the 2 they have.
i ordered as soon as i saw it had a price...my case is now paid in full after a few payments came in so now im ready to bust.........a month from now
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Old 07-19-2010, 02:31 PM   #46 (permalink)
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Did they forget they had an ebay name with a ton of stuff listed that they stated was in Razor vault? Were they mistaken by producing a 3k a pack product with a TON of fake autographs in it? Do yourself a favor and dont argue for this company when it comes to integrity.
lol. Ton of fake auto in a 99 packs production? One or 2 were identified suspicious and Razor contacted the owners to solve the issue pretty fast.
Try to find 99 cut autos like they did to produce this product with 98% of them being genuine. Second Razor were not selling those packs 3K$/pack, resellers were on ebay since the product was in high demand and rare.

Please do yourself a favor and stop spreading false informations when you just don't know what you are talking about.
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Old 07-19-2010, 09:45 PM   #47 (permalink)
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beckett will pull the strasburg in there box break .
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Old 07-19-2010, 10:10 PM   #48 (permalink)
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Its good to see Razor has a fan on this site. You are one of the few I can tell you. And you say false information? Lets start with the presidential series. For such a high SELLING product, wouldnt you think this reputable company would have put AUTHENTIC signatures in it? You are excusing a manufacturer for placing fake autographs in a product now?
Next lets go to Razor Vault. This company has an eBay name where they are selling many of the hits pictured on the box? Once people catch on then they stop! Doesnt seem a little shady to you?
Lets head now to this little Rookie Retro product. Hmmm, Gray says on video he has spent months buying the cards for THIS PRODUCT. He then releases a sell sheet with the picture of a Jason Heyward Superfractor. Then in yet another eBay debacle, Gray has the darn card LISTED ON EBAY for sale. A mistake? Well yes, since he got caught lol. If it were truly meant for this product, why would he even be selling it?
The track record here speaks for itself. You can defend them, but you will have a hard time doing it. Everything I have written is completely FACTUAL. Have we seen the top pulls from Razor poker or legends of the diamond yet? No, but I guess they could still be out there. Kinda odd neither product has produced the big monster hit. We could get into the rumblings about UD owning this company and backing them financially, but Ill save that for later. Your making look foolish defending this joke of a company. Heck, they cant even product their own cards that sell. Lets make products of other companies cards, advertise hits that nobody pulls, and sell them to crazy people dumb enough to buy them. I guess Brian Gray is smart on that note.
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Old 07-20-2010, 08:11 AM   #49 (permalink)
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Its good to see Razor has a fan on this site. You are one of the few I can tell you. And you say false information? Lets start with the presidential series. For such a high SELLING product, wouldnt you think this reputable company would have put AUTHENTIC signatures in it? You are excusing a manufacturer for placing fake autographs in a product now?
Next lets go to Razor Vault. This company has an eBay name where they are selling many of the hits pictured on the box? Once people catch on then they stop! Doesnt seem a little shady to you?
Lets head now to this little Rookie Retro product. Hmmm, Gray says on video he has spent months buying the cards for THIS PRODUCT. He then releases a sell sheet with the picture of a Jason Heyward Superfractor. Then in yet another eBay debacle, Gray has the darn card LISTED ON EBAY for sale. A mistake? Well yes, since he got caught lol. If it were truly meant for this product, why would he even be selling it?
The track record here speaks for itself. You can defend them, but you will have a hard time doing it. Everything I have written is completely FACTUAL. Have we seen the top pulls from Razor poker or legends of the diamond yet? No, but I guess they could still be out there. Kinda odd neither product has produced the big monster hit. We could get into the rumblings about UD owning this company and backing them financially, but Ill save that for later. Your making look foolish defending this joke of a company. Heck, they cant even product their own cards that sell. Lets make products of other companies cards, advertise hits that nobody pulls, and sell them to crazy people dumb enough to buy them. I guess Brian Gray is smart on that note.
True we saw all the Razor Poker hits being pulled. Except the Stu Ungar cut. It's a 1/1 why do you think you will see it. What don't you understand in the 1/1 concept. If I grab it and put it in my PC, you will never see it. It might pop-up in 30 years when the guy that own it dies.

It's not a surprise to me that you don't understand this simple thing.

It's not that "joke" of a company that made me laugh, it's more people like you who will never try to do something by themselves and laughing at people that does. That's making me laugh.

Another question I'm asking to myself is why do you think you can tell him how to run his business? Where are your shares in this joke of company?

Give me a break with your "FACTS". You know what, I heard you killed your brother on the Internet. I know it's true because it was posted on a forum by someone I don't know and hidding behind a nickname! I'll bring this FACT to the court with me against you.

And by the way I don't care being the only Razor fan in the whole world, I know you are not able to stand alone with your opinions, but that's not my case. I don't need to bash Razor to make myself friends on the forums.
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Old 07-20-2010, 01:40 PM   #50 (permalink)
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What friend am I trying to make on this board?

FACT: Razor had an account on ebay selling hits that were in the Vault products on the side.

FACT: There were fake autographs in the Presidential series made by Brian Gray

FACT: Brian Gray was selling the Heyward Superfractor AFTER the sell sheet was out for the product it was to be placed in.

FACT: Brain Gray said he had bought it for the product, not to sell on ebay.

Those are FACTS not opinions. I havent told him how to run his business. He is soliciting information to dealers and collectors stating certain cards are in there WHILE HE HAS THEM FOR SALE. He solicited a product to us with fake autographs in it for thousands of dollars a pack.
Enough said.
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