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Old 04-10-2012, 12:41 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Default What exactly is wrong about shilling?

I wouldn't go through the trouble of doing it, nor would I risk losing hundreds of potential customers if I got caught but what is wrong about shill bidding?

This is an honest question, when I bid on a card, I bid the maximum I would pay, no more, no less.

If the seller bids over what I would pay, he or she loses the sale. No big deal. If they bid the price higher and I still win, they are simply covering what they wanted to get for the card. Plus, they do not have to lose a whole group of potential bidders who would avoid an auction with a reserve.
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Old 04-10-2012, 12:45 PM   #2 (permalink)
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All I am going to say... is anyone placing a bid on Ebay should be interested in paying for and winning the card.

What the shiller is REALLY trying to do is generate some fake interest...... that makes other bidders nervous if they think other folks are trying to get the card.

Its a bit of a sham if you ask me.
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Old 04-10-2012, 12:47 PM   #3 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by danimal875 View Post
I wouldn't go through the trouble of doing it, nor would I risk losing hundreds of potential customers if I got caught but what is wrong about shill bidding?

This is an honest question, when I bid on a card, I bid the maximum I would pay, no more, no less.

If the seller bids over what I would pay, he or she loses the sale. No big deal. If they bid the price higher and I still win, they are simply covering what they wanted to get for the card. Plus, they do not have to lose a whole group of potential bidders who would avoid an auction with a reserve.
Well first of all it's against eBay policy.

It's essentially fraud...

The shill bidder is creating false interest in an item. Say you are trying to buy a Robinson Cano autograph and your max is $35...the seller has someone shill it to $40 and you figure what the hell....and bid $42 to win it. You got screwed out of $7. By doing that they can also drive up future sales of similar items. Not to mention it is completely dishonest and who would want to buy from someone like that?

If there is a minimum they want for a card they can just do a BIN.
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Old 04-10-2012, 12:52 PM   #4 (permalink)
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I saw a good debate a while back on a forum (can't remember where exactly), but somebody posted that there is not a big difference between shill bidding and reserve pricing for an auction.

I by no means think shilling is right, but it was a good debate, with good points made for both sides.
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Old 04-10-2012, 12:56 PM   #5 (permalink)
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Well first of all it's against eBay policy.

It's essentially fraud...

The shill bidder is creating false interest in an item. Say you are trying to buy a Robinson Cano autograph and your max is $35...the seller has someone shill it to $40 and you figure what the hell....and bid $42 to win it. You got screwed out of $7. By doing that they can also drive up future sales of similar items. Not to mention it is completely dishonest and who would want to buy from someone like that?

If there is a minimum they want for a card they can just do a BIN.
It being against Ebay policy makes it a no brainer to avoid but I am looking at it from a moral perspective. What is the difference between real interest and fake interest. People spend trillions of dollars a year on products they don't need because of advertising, which is in essence, a creator of false interest.

The example of the Cano illustrates my point, You set a price of $35. If you had stuck to your value, the seller would have lost the sale. If you then went and bid $42 then you just set a value of $42 for it. What if the seller bid $5,000? Would you still say "what the hell, I'll do it." Of course not, but what is the number where that cut off is? $55? $70? I just think people should bid that number, I guess I don't really understand the psychology of auctions very well and their value system attached.
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Old 04-10-2012, 01:00 PM   #6 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by danimal875 View Post
I wouldn't go through the trouble of doing it, nor would I risk losing hundreds of potential customers if I got caught but what is wrong about shill bidding?

This is an honest question, when I bid on a card, I bid the maximum I would pay, no more, no less.

If the seller bids over what I would pay, he or she loses the sale. No big deal. If they bid the price higher and I still win, they are simply covering what they wanted to get for the card. Plus, they do not have to lose a whole group of potential bidders who would avoid an auction with a reserve.
Simple answer.
Regardless of what your maximum is
wouldnt you PREFER to pay say, half that ?

If you win and pay full amount as a result of honest bidding, so be it.

But if your paying your max bid based on false bids by "shill" accounts that have no intention of actually buying the item, well that kinda sucks because there is the rather obvious chance you MIGHT not have had to pay that much.
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Old 04-10-2012, 01:05 PM   #7 (permalink)
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The problem of shill bidding. You bid $50. Next highest legit bidder bids $30. So you should have won with $30.50. Then the seller shilled it with a $49.00 bid. Now you need to pay $50 instead of $30.50. Even $50.00 is your max, do you want to pay $50.00 or $30.50?

If the seller doesn't want to sell the card for less than $50, then set a reserve price or start the auction opening bid or do BIN. Shilling is wrong.
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Old 04-10-2012, 01:22 PM   #8 (permalink)
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anyone placing a bid on Ebay should be interested in paying for and winning the card.Its a bit of a sham if you ask me.
you hit both nails on the head, if you bid on eBay you should want the item.

it is a shame that ebay (though i have reported shillers) will do nothing about it. however, it is against ebay rules. kinda like the government (say one thing but do another)

it's wrong because it is wrong.

you want a card for your PC and bid $100 on it, as soon as your bid is placed a shill bid gets placed over top of you. the shiller wins the item and it gets relisted, it will happen over and over until the seller/shiller get's outbid and the winner pays.

for example (known shiller bigboydsportscards3) has had the same derek jeter 1993 upper deck sp foil rookie for sale 25 times in the last 3 months, same winning bidder everytime.
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Old 04-10-2012, 01:30 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by danimal875 View Post
This is an honest question, when I bid on a card, I bid the maximum I would pay, no more, no less.
But what if no one else wants to pay as much as you do? Do you think the seller should be able to shill it up to your max bid?

Shilling subverts the whole free market aspect of an auction.

The seller wants all of the upside of an auction (possible price premium) and none of the downside (lack of interest resulting in lower price) and is cheating the system to get it.

BIN/BO if you have a set price to sell, auction if you want to gamble and see what you can get.
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Old 04-10-2012, 02:43 PM   #10 (permalink)
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But what if no one else wants to pay as much as you do? Do you think the seller should be able to shill it up to your max bid?

Shilling subverts the whole free market aspect of an auction.

The seller wants all of the upside of an auction (possible price premium) and none of the downside (lack of interest resulting in lower price) and is cheating the system to get it.

BIN/BO if you have a set price to sell, auction if you want to gamble and see what you can get.
I think sellers should have the option of seeing what people would pay for a card, that is one thing I really like about Sportsbuy (formerly NAXCOM). Unfortunately, there is no option like that on Ebay, in order to find out the true ceiling of a card, someone would have to shill.
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Old 04-10-2012, 02:49 PM   #11 (permalink)
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The thing that irks me is the value judgement that is associated with shilling. Why is it any better that people like auctions because they think they can get something for less than it is worth, there are countless threads on here of people bragging about getting a "steal" on a card. Nobody gives them any crap about paying much less than the value of the card. Maybe someone who would have bid more who wasn't on Ebay that night, or maybe it was listed with bad spelling or in the wrong section.
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Old 04-10-2012, 03:10 PM   #12 (permalink)
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Well, think about it in this sense. Would you like to pay $50.00 more on a card from a shilled auction? Or would you have rather had that extra $50.00 to buy another PC card or a hobby box of cards? The thing that is so insanely wrong about shill bidding is, that you're ripping your customer off, by trying to maximize profits for yourself, when in reality all you are doing is buying your own card over and over again.

Its similar to price fixing. Back in the day people said "What is wrong with price fixing?" If Wal Mart Agrees with Target that they set toothpaste at $3.00/tube, and then say, increase the price of the toothpaste $.25 every month, than by the end of the year, people are paying $6.00 a tube of toothpaste. In a free market society, this would screw everything up, and cause an inflated demand for toothpaste. Stores would buy more toothpaste, customers would have to fork over more, and it would eventually create a false bubble in the market that would later explode and be bad for all parties.

So before someone shills an auction, think "Would I like to buy the card I'm selling for $30.00 or $50.00?" Of course the seller would like to buy the card at $30.00, and that is what is going to keep a seller in business. Making the customer happy pays off in the long run. Disgruntled customers don't stay with you for to long. Its better to do things the honest way.
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Old 04-10-2012, 03:46 PM   #13 (permalink)
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The thing that irks me is the value judgement that is associated with shilling. Why is it any better that people like auctions because they think they can get something for less than it is worth, there are countless threads on here of people bragging about getting a "steal" on a card. Nobody gives them any crap about paying much less than the value of the card. Maybe someone who would have bid more who wasn't on Ebay that night, or maybe it was listed with bad spelling or in the wrong section.
Then that's the seller's fault. I mean they shouldn't expect to crap on a log and have people lining up to buy it. Someone just takes a cellphone pic of a card and sticks it on ebay expects to get paid a premium for it.
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Old 04-10-2012, 04:34 PM   #14 (permalink)
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Things go to auction because at auction the item will sell (HIGH OR LOW) based on what interested parties commit to pay.

This is the purpose of an auction... you may as the seller get more, less, or market value for whatever you take a chance at selling via that auction. Anyone here complaining about "value" needs to clam up a little bit. Auction is a GAMBLE. You don't SHILL or alter your gamble in a dishonest way.... that is FRAUD.

Definition for Auction:
Also called public sale. a publicly held sale at which property or goods are sold to the highest bidder.
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Old 04-10-2012, 04:37 PM   #15 (permalink)
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I think sellers should have the option of seeing what people would pay for a card, that is one thing I really like about Sportsbuy (formerly NAXCOM). Unfortunately, there is no option like that on Ebay, in order to find out the true ceiling of a card, someone would have to shill.
That's not the "true ceiling" of a card, it's a shill ceiling.
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Old 04-10-2012, 05:29 PM   #16 (permalink)
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for example (known shiller bigboydsportscards3) has had the same derek jeter 1993 upper deck sp foil rookie for sale 25 times in the last 3 months, same winning bidder everytime.
We have sold 10 different 1993 SP Jeter's in the last 3 months. One person has won 4 of them. 6 other people won the others. 7 different buyers. All different cards, all paid for. None of them were shilled, as none of our items are shilled. But way to report the facts..

Beware Vwbus1978, he shills ever auction he has ever run. That statement (if not true), has as much validity as your statement. If you are going to post something, at least post a fact.

To now contribute to the actual thread.. Shill bidding should not be tolerated, any shill bidding hurts the integrity of an auction. All auctions run should be 100% pure. I can't wait to see all the sarcastic and meaningless comments this post garners..
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Old 04-10-2012, 05:50 PM   #17 (permalink)
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*Gets his popcorn & coke ready*
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Old 04-10-2012, 07:06 PM   #18 (permalink)
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