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Old 10-18-2009, 10:34 PM   #26 (permalink)
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I bet its looked over and somethig is done. The browns need to do something. Maybe a pay cut for them refs?? I agree that they can't make every call. But when play is stopped and measurement is taken, they need to get at LEAST that right. If not, lower the tickets $100 or more
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Old 10-18-2009, 10:41 PM   #27 (permalink)
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Yeah this may force me to watch the Four Letter tonight to see if they have anything to say about it. Probably not because I am sure the Shield has told everybody not to talk about this play. My question is how many people on this board would have even known about this if I didn't post it?
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Old 10-19-2009, 12:12 AM   #28 (permalink)
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Yeah this may force me to watch the Four Letter tonight to see if they have anything to say about it. Probably not because I am sure the Shield has told everybody not to talk about this play. My question is how many people on this board would have even known about this if I didn't post it?
I wouldn't have known, and I'm a Steelers fan. I'm definitely glad you posted it, and from what I see in that picture, I honestly can't believe they messed up that call. They need to be fined if the facts are as they seem in this thread.
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Old 10-19-2009, 12:15 AM   #29 (permalink)
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they did not cover the spread at -14 so they lost in my book!!!!!!!!!!1
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Old 10-19-2009, 12:40 AM   #30 (permalink)
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If the refs blew the call, they blew the call. You act like this is the first time that a ref or umpire has blew a call. Think Baltimore fans are still bitter about the Jeffrey Maire or whatever? Get over it, calls happen. A call will go against the Steelers somewhere down the line and even it out, geez. Stop beating a damn dead horse son.
I would guess that this would be the first and hopefully last time they blow that call. Someone has to lose their job over something that blatant!
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Old 10-19-2009, 01:27 AM   #31 (permalink)
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Here's an even clearer shot of the TV view...



Also, a reverse angle from the Browns sideline shot by a local TV network basically confirmed the TV shot, that the ball was about 2 inches short of a first down. Wouldn't have changed the outcome of the game IMO, but it does spotlight how absolutely inept some NFL referees are.
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Old 10-19-2009, 01:36 AM   #32 (permalink)
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Leave it to the wonders of youtube to have the full video of this.

YouTube - Browns-Steelers: Refs Bad Call on Fourth Down October 18

Amazing how bad this call is!

Yeah it must be a bad angle on our end. Get outta here I have now seen it all from the National Fixed League. Way to make sure Pittspuke covered that first half spread.
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Old 10-19-2009, 01:47 AM   #33 (permalink)
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Gosh, it must be difficult to be a Browns fan. Why does the NFL refs hate them so much. I heard about Rob Ryan being upset that the Bengals field goal was no good but damn he is correct. I found this video on youtube as well. The Browns Bengals game should have ended in a tie. He clearly didn't make this field goal. I don't know who the Lerners pissed off but they had better throw some money at Mr Goodell so they can get on the right side of these scripts.

YouTube - NFL Bengals beat Browns 23 20 on a missed game winning ot field goal kick wide right
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Old 10-19-2009, 12:11 PM   #34 (permalink)
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That video is absolutely worthless if you're trying to determine anything on the measurement.

Look at the hash mark in the picture, obviously not even close to a direct angle. You'd have to move the camera quite a bit to the left so that the hash mark is perpendicular to the camera shot. It's not even close. Every bit you move the camera angle to the left, the gap narrows.

Overall, I'm shocked that so many educated people (including ESPN) are so ignorant of the basic fundamentals of kindergarten 101 Physics needed to analyze this…

Do this test if you still think it was a HORRIBLE call. Get a regulation sized football (or one that is close). Put it on your kitchen/bathroom counter. Put something that is straight up and down AT THE POINT OF THE BALL - such that if it were the yard marker, it WOULD be a first down (can of hairspray, shampoo, PAM, etc.). This item must be 4 to 5 inches in front of the ball (i.e., closer to you) because the chain cannot interfere with the side of the ball when stretched out. Now…step back about 8 to 10 feet from the straight-on view which still "to the eye" is a first down. Take one large step to your right.

What do you see? Something pretty damn similar to the video and still shot included in this thread.

If you think you see something different, well … all I can say is "I'm sorry".

It's just like the view that shows a pitch "appear" to be over the plate, but it's because the camera is to the left-field side of the straight-line between home and the pitcher's mound. Home plate and the catcher are pretty darn close - but it doesn't take much of an angle to alter the perception.

As an FYI - I do not care one bit about the Steelers, and actually am one that prefers to see the reigning champion humbled/beat/etc., and 99% of the time cheers for the underdog.
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Old 10-19-2009, 12:58 PM   #35 (permalink)
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thekramers5,
Would you please like to explain this reponse then by Steelers center Justin Hartwig who was on the field for the measurement. Again this is a Steelers player saying this not a Browns player!

"I have no idea how they gave us a first down, but we'll take it," Hartwig said. "I'd say (it was short) by two chain links. It was obvious to everybody playing on the field. I don't know how they called it the way they did, but ... we're not going to complain about it."

But yeah it is our camera angle okay. All the players on the field must have had a bad angle too. The Browns defensive coordinator must have had a bad angle too. Or maybe he just got so excitied and jumped up and down and screamed FCK YEAH!!! We almost stopped them on 4th down. Sounds like a good reason to jump up and down to me.

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Old 10-19-2009, 01:25 PM   #36 (permalink)
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Bad call but seriously Wolffy you can't think it would have changed the game from a loss to a win if the Steelers didn't get the 3 points. The Browns are horrible and shouldn't even be on the same field as the Steelers. Unlike the Eagles, the Steelers don't lose to horrible teams which is why they have all those Lombardi Trophies.
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Old 10-19-2009, 01:26 PM   #37 (permalink)
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wolffer12 - explain to me how the off-angle video has ANYTHING to do with the support.

If you notice - my post is 100% about the camera angle that has everybody so up in arms.

I'm not at all saying whether it was "the thickness of a quarter" short or that they made it by "the thickness of a quarter", I'm just shocked that so many people simply cannot understand the, I don't want to say "physics"...so I'll just say the common sense in this one.

Quite comical to say the least...

To see ESPN show "the same stupid camera angle" and highlight the distance gap between the ball and the yardstick shows how inept they are.

Again, do my test and let me know what you see. I'm not at all saying whether the call was right - just that the video & still everybody is seeing and raising hell about were assinine to use.

Was Hartwig on the field looking down the "right angle" when the chains were stretched? Or, did he see the dumb-a$$ video and fall for the same crap as everybody else?

Isn't he a center? I doubt he was on the field...
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Old 10-19-2009, 02:00 PM   #38 (permalink)
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wolffer12 - explain to me how the off-angle video has ANYTHING to do with the support.

If you notice - my post is 100% about the camera angle that has everybody so up in arms.

I'm not at all saying whether it was "the thickness of a quarter" short or that they made it by "the thickness of a quarter", I'm just shocked that so many people simply cannot understand the, I don't want to say "physics"...so I'll just say the common sense in this one.

Quite comical to say the least...

To see ESPN show "the same stupid camera angle" and highlight the distance gap between the ball and the yardstick shows how inept they are.

Again, do my test and let me know what you see. I'm not at all saying whether the call was right - just that the video & still everybody is seeing and raising hell about were assinine to use.

Was Hartwig on the field looking down the "right angle" when the chains were stretched? Or, did he see the dumb-a$$ video and fall for the same crap as everybody else?

Isn't he a center? I doubt he was on the field...
Maybe you need to apply some of that "common sense" to that last line of yours Doesn't the Steeler's center need to snap the ball to the Steeler's QB?? It was a bush league crappy call and all the trying to "impress with physics" in the world won't change it. Yes, the Brown's probably still wouldn't have won the game but it sure would have helped their chances with a big momentum change. I am not a fan of either team by the way. I just don't like poor officiating in any game. Now, lets get back to some box breaks
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Old 10-19-2009, 02:09 PM   #39 (permalink)
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Isn't he a center? I doubt he was on the field...
Shows how much of a dumb-a$$ I am! Of course he was "on the field" (unless he's the back-up center ).

But seriously, if more than 2 players TOTAL on both teams had the perfect angle to see something that was obviously that close, I'd be surprised.

Somebody mentioned 2 inches earlier in the post - um, yeah. The BAD ANGLE appeared to be about 2 inches maximum, so the true angle wouldn't have been anywhere near that close.

Don't forget, most of these football players would probably have a tough time dropping fries and onion rings at the local fast food joint and pulling them up without burning themselves or my side order (i.e., not exactly the sharpest knives in the drawer).

Quotes from the official making the call:
“It touched the plane of the stake because that’s what I’m looking at,” Anderson said.

If you shot at an angle maybe from back behind the ball it might look like it’s short,” Anderson said. “If you shot at angle the other side, it might actually look like it’s further in advance of the stake.”

Another quote from the official...

The Browns appeared to stop the Steelers on a fourth-and-1 play in the first half, but referee Walt Anderson ruled that Pittsburgh had gained just enough yardage to convert. “It touched the plane of the stake because that’s what I’m looking at,” Anderson explained. “If the nose of the ball touches the stake, then it’s a first down. But we don’t actually put the stake up against the nose of the ball because of the way the ball is shaped. The chains and stake are laid beside, so it kind of depends on the angle you might be looking at it from.

Rocket science it is not - kindergarten physics it is.
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Old 10-19-2009, 02:10 PM   #40 (permalink)
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It was a bush league crappy call and all the trying to "impress with physics" in the world won't change it.
Sorry, forgot that physics classes don't happen until the later years of high school, and probably in college nowadays.
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Old 10-19-2009, 02:23 PM   #41 (permalink)
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FIrst of all, the centers are normally among the smartest guys on the field. They call out the lineman assignments and have to be able to comprehend the defense just like the QB does.

Second, after all these years, it still amazes me how much play any issue with the Steelers get. The Steelers are the only ones cheating. The Steelers have incriminating evidence against the NFL. The Steelers are the only ones that get favorable calls from the Refs. The Steelers this and the Steelers that.

I would tell all you haters to give it a break but you never will so what's the point.
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Old 10-19-2009, 02:56 PM   #42 (permalink)
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First off, I don't know where in this thread I said the Browns would win the game. I am not that stupid, but to say it didn't have any impact on the game is laughable. I won't go into the details on it because most logical people would understand this. Nice way to use quotes from the Ref too. Notice he is the only one saying it touched the marker. Players from both teams are saying it was short and they had the same damn view as the ref.

I guess in conculsion with the logic of thekramers, we can't ever tell if it is a first down or not on a close measurement at home because our angle may not be right. For the 40 to 50 some years they have been showing football games on tv I guess we have been fooled all these years.
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Old 10-19-2009, 03:17 PM   #43 (permalink)
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First off, I don't know where in this thread I said the Browns would win the game. I am not that stupid, but to say it didn't have any impact on the game is laughable. I won't go into the details on it because most logical people would understand this. Nice way to use quotes from the Ref too. Notice he is the only one saying it touched the marker. Players from both teams are saying it was short and they had the same damn view as the ref.

I guess in conculsion with the logic of thekramers, we can't ever tell if it is a first down or not on a close measurement at home because our angle may not be right. For the 40 to 50 some years they have been showing football games on tv I guess we have been fooled all these years.
I do agree - any play during a game that ends up with even a slightly different result DOES have an impact on the rest of the game. So I know that comment wasn't directed towards me, but I agree with the statement.

A simple ball/strike call in the 3rd inning could have a HUGE impact on a baseball game - so please reference who you are directing that comment to because it certainly isn't me.

As for including the ref's comments - the ref simply explained what I said --- the fact that the chain CANNOT be pressed up against the point of the ball makes the angle MATTER. And yes, if the angle isn't right - don't ever rely on the TV view. Problem is that most of the time the angle IS CORRECT with today's technology. I can only imagine why they didn't get the right view with that play ... ???

Go back to the video and look at the hashmark --- PLEASE !!! Is it straight on??? Is it even close???

Did you ever do the test I recommended? I'm sure not because it would show the complete IDIOCY of using the TV video and still as any reference to this argument.

Please ... do the test and let me know what you see!!! Or, did you already do it and you're afraid to mention the results?

And one more time - I'm not saying that the correct angle would have supported a first-down call, but to even reference the video/still is humorous at best.

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For the 40 to 50 some years they have been showing football games on tv I guess we have been fooled all these years.
Quotes like this make you appear ignorant. It's the angle that matters IN THIS INSTANCE. It's the angle that matters IN THIS INSTANCE. It's the angle that matters IN THIS INSTANCE.

And, yes, for 40 or 50 years - if THAT pi$$-poor angle is used to judge first downs that are within a few inches - YES - you have been fooled for 40 or 50 years.
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Old 10-19-2009, 03:21 PM   #44 (permalink)
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FIrst of all, the centers are normally among the smartest guys on the field. They call out the lineman assignments and have to be able to comprehend the defense just like the QB does.
Man - if this Hartwig guy is such a mensa scholar, how could he think it was 2 chain-links short of a first down when the chain links are not even at the last 1/2 a foot of the markers/chains?

And, most importantly, what ref in his right mind would blow a call that absolutely obvious if he KNOWS that there are literally dozens of cameras with the potential of seeing the same thing he is looking at ... ??
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Old 10-19-2009, 04:07 PM   #45 (permalink)
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Man - if this Hartwig guy is such a mensa scholar, how could he think it was 2 chain-links short of a first down when the chain links are not even at the last 1/2 a foot of the markers/chains?

And, most importantly, what ref in his right mind would blow a call that absolutely obvious if he KNOWS that there are literally dozens of cameras with the potential of seeing the same thing he is looking at ... ??
A. I didn't watch the game (as I stated previously) so I have not made any comments specifically related to the call.

B. I never stated the Pittsburgh center was a mensa scholar. I merely stated what is well know in football that centers are normally among the smartest guys on offense. I did say normally although I dont know Justin Hartwig personally. So he could be a mensa scholar or he could be as dumb as a box of rocks. I really don't know.

No reason to attack me. I didn't contradict your explanation. I merely stated a well known fact about centers. I don't know where Hartwick was on the field because I DIDN'T SEE THE GAME. I DIDN'T SEE THE GAME. I DIDN'T SEE THE GAME.

I hope that helps in getting that point across to you because you used the same method in one of your last posts.
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Old 10-19-2009, 04:08 PM   #46 (permalink)
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They still won by 13, so how does this one first down call, that leads to a FG cause them to cheat to a victory? The ref called the first down, not the steelers, how is this even on the Steelers?
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Old 10-19-2009, 04:23 PM   #47 (permalink)
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Wolffy you're my boy but this is a lot of typing over nothing but a bad call which happens to benefit a team you hate. All it did was give the Steelers 3 more points in a game that wasn't as close at the final score indicated. If you're suggesting that stop would have given the Browns a lift I'll buy that but it was almost half-time and that jolt of momentum would wear off fast. To say the Steelers needed to cheat to win is a joke as the ONLY shot the Browns had of winning was if the Steelers didn't show up a la Philly in Oakland. When BOTH teams show up and play, talent and coaching wins out in the NFL. The Steelers are miles ahead of the Browns in both.
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Old 10-19-2009, 04:37 PM   #48 (permalink)
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A. I didn't watch the game (as I stated previously) so I have not made any comments specifically related to the call.

B. I never stated the Pittsburgh center was a mensa scholar. I merely stated what is well know in football that centers are normally among the smartest guys on offense. I did say normally although I dont know Justin Hartwig personally. So he could be a mensa scholar or he could be as dumb as a box of rocks. I really don't know.

No reason to attack me. I didn't contradict your explanation. I merely stated a well known fact about centers. I don't know where Hartwick was on the field because I DIDN'T SEE THE GAME. I DIDN'T SEE THE GAME. I DIDN'T SEE THE GAME.

I hope that helps in getting that point across to you because you used the same method in one of your last posts.
Sorry wcbraun ... wasn't going after you, but I liked the similar use of the repetitive sentence! I know how it goes during the games - show something on the big screen and everybody overreacts ... I just would be curious if Hartwig was really in a position to see it or if he (a) saw it on Jumbotron or (b) saw it on TV afterwards.

Anyway, I didn't see the game either and had no care of the outcome - but (and not directed at you!):

(a) hearing all the flak, and
(b) seeing the bogus video & still which are apparently all that is available, all I want to see is something else to help me side with the Browns - and it apparently isn't happening. Even if it WAS a bad call, I want to see how close it REALLY was.

Nobody can provide it ... and I'll trust the one guy who was within a foot of the call and is trained to make that call. NOT the hyped up players who are more than likely not in the correct position.

Again, apologies for the apparent attack.
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Old 10-19-2009, 04:38 PM   #49 (permalink)
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I don't think it is so much him being pissed about the Steelers winning or getting a favorable call. My guess is that he lost money on the first half betting line as that 3 points gave Pitt the cover. Had that not happened, it is probably a non issue.
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Old 10-19-2009, 04:39 PM   #50 (permalink)
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nothing but a bad call
Bambam - just curious of what you've seen to substantiate it as a bad call. In all reality, I'm just looking for different proof besides the crap already provided.

Otherwise, great post and really says it all. Browns are not close to the same class as the Steelers.
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