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Old 09-25-2013, 04:22 PM   #26 (permalink)
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Ponder is a beast, end of discussion
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Old 09-25-2013, 04:47 PM   #27 (permalink)
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These dink and dunk plays have to be attributed to Musgrave, not ponder. I believe it's Musgrave that is too conservative and won't allow Ponder to blossom. I understand he did the same to Matt Ryan, until he was booted out of ATL.

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Ponder is not the reason the Vikes are 0-3. Can he be a difference maker? I hope so. But there were 3 occurences the last game that are causing me to think the Vikes need to cut bait and see what someone else can do.

1. The fumble just before the half. Yes he was bumrushed, but he had to see it coming. Eat the ball and take the 3 points.
2. Failure to hit a wide open Joe Webb in the endzone. He has poor accuracy that has been shown before and often, but this cost them an opportunity to put the game away.
3. Poor execution of the 2 minute offense. Why are you trying to complete a seven yard pass in the middle of the field with 30 seconds left and no timeouts? The odds of scoring were poor, but cmon man at least give yourself a chance.

As long as I'm on my soapbox I have to say that I can't believe the Vikes coaches did not protest the 15 yard penalty when Frazier threw the challenge flag. That cost them a shot at possible points as well.
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Old 09-25-2013, 04:49 PM   #28 (permalink)
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Ponder needs a supporting cast, right now he's terrible, but it's not all his fault, he has never had a real #1 receiver to throw to, even Brady is struggling without a number one. Behind every great QB is a great WR.
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Old 09-25-2013, 04:50 PM   #29 (permalink)
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Ponder last season was the only quarterback without a touchdown pass of 21-plus yards (minimum 10 throws), per NFL research. Over two seasons, he's 11 for 70 (15.7 percent) on attempts of 21-plus yards through the air. That's netted 436 yards, one touchdown, five interceptions and a 28.0 passer rating. Last season alone, Ponder was 5 of 34 on those longer throws, for a completion percentage of 14.7.

Though his first 30 game stats may be quite similar to Alex Smith's on paper, that does not divulge the entire story. Much akin to RG3 piling up yardage in garbage time.

Bottom line is...he must VASTLY improve his accuracy on the deep balls. Many people have been labeling him the checkdown king his first 2 years, and for obvious reasons. He simply couldn't hit an 8 foot tall Megatron running a 30 yard slant route if his life depended on it.

And unfortunately for him, this is a different era of football...and rookie year playoff success stories such as Luck, RG3, and Wilson do not help his cause. Teams just aren't willing to wait 5-10 years for a QB to 'get it' like they were in the past (ie, brandon weeden, gabbert). Especially when colleges are churning out slews of new 'dual threat' QB's like cars on an assembly line.

I want to believe Ponder will 'get it,' but I fear it's already at that point where it's too late for him. Being an accurate deep ball passer is not exactly something you can 'develop' like an ability to read defenses. Sure, he can try and tweak his mechanics til' the sun don't shine, but look at our boy Tim Tebow.
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Old 09-25-2013, 05:15 PM   #30 (permalink)
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Ponder last season was the only quarterback without a touchdown pass of 21-plus yards (minimum 10 throws), per NFL research. Over two seasons, he's 11 for 70 (15.7 percent) on attempts of 21-plus yards through the air. That's netted 436 yards, one touchdown, five interceptions and a 28.0 passer rating. Last season alone, Ponder was 5 of 34 on those longer throws, for a completion percentage of 14.7.

Though his first 30 game stats may be quite similar to Alex Smith's on paper, that does not divulge the entire story. Much akin to RG3 piling up yardage in garbage time.

Bottom line is...he must VASTLY improve his accuracy on the deep balls. Many people have been labeling him the checkdown king his first 2 years, and for obvious reasons. He simply couldn't hit an 8 foot tall Megatron running a 30 yard slant route if his life depended on it.

And unfortunately for him, this is a different era of football...and rookie year playoff success stories such as Luck, RG3, and Wilson do not help his cause. Teams just aren't willing to wait 5-10 years for a QB to 'get it' like they were in the past (ie, brandon weeden, gabbert). Especially when colleges are churning out slews of new 'dual threat' QB's like cars on an assembly line.

I want to believe Ponder will 'get it,' but I fear it's already at that point where it's too late for him. Being an accurate deep ball passer is not exactly something you can 'develop' like an ability to read defenses. Sure, he can try and tweak his mechanics til' the sun don't shine, but look at our boy Tim Tebow.
another awesome post by ninjacookies. Those deep ball stats tell the story. How do you loosen up the box for Adrian? A deep threat. They drafted Patterso n and signed Jennings for that threat but they need a QB that can make those passes.
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Old 09-25-2013, 05:18 PM   #31 (permalink)
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I heard on a local radio sports talk show that Ponder has the slowest release time of any QB in the league. The line can't be expected to block for 4+ seconds on each passing play.
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Old 09-25-2013, 05:27 PM   #32 (permalink)
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As a Niner fan That comparison is TERRIBLE. Back Then Alex Smith NEVER had Adrian Peterson or Percy Harvin Type Players. Ponders had a supporting cast and still sucked.
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Old 09-25-2013, 06:54 PM   #33 (permalink)
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I am pondering now that we have some good receivers, why we don't line up in three wide outs with a tight end formations more. Our FUll Back is hurt the first three games and we only or in a passing formation when the defense knows to zone blitz or just outright blitz. Not Ponder or the offense line can beat the blitz when his hot route is K Rudolph. He is to slow with getting rid of the ball.

I put the blame on the coaching staff, and the players. If there is a blitz and they see it they should audible to a screen or some kind of play similar to that(quick and designed to beat the blitz). That being said, Ponder I don't believe will ever be a good or even a game manager. I also believe that either Frazier or Musgrave will be fired before week 10. I personally would prefer it be Musgrave.
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Old 09-25-2013, 06:58 PM   #34 (permalink)
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As a Niner fan That comparison is TERRIBLE. Back Then Alex Smith NEVER had Adrian Peterson or Percy Harvin Type Players. Ponders had a supporting cast and still sucked.
Pretty sure 2 of the years that I am using for Smith he had Frank Gore, who went for near 1700 one season and went 1100 the next. I'd say that's a pretty dominant back that should have helped Smith, but I'm sure defenses stacked the box like they do against the Vikings and the offensive line couldn't hold up, just like the Vikings. And Percy couldnt stay healthy for the life of him but when he was healthy, Ponder benefitted. So actually, I'd say it's more then a fair comparison.
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Old 09-25-2013, 07:14 PM   #35 (permalink)
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Pretty sure 2 of the years that I am using for Smith he had Frank Gore, who went for near 1700 one season and went 1100 the next. I'd say that's a pretty dominant back that should have helped Smith, but I'm sure defenses stacked the box like they do against the Vikings and the offensive line couldn't hold up, just like the Vikings. And Percy couldnt stay healthy for the life of him but when he was healthy, Ponder benefitted. So actually, I'd say it's more then a fair comparison.
I like Gore. He is in no way ALL DAY. Peterson couldve rushed for 1100 in the NFL while he was in high school lol. Not to discredit Gore but your comparing him to a future First Ballot Hall of Famer.
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Old 09-25-2013, 07:18 PM   #36 (permalink)
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Oh I feel bad for Minnesota sports fans some times. I really do.
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Old 09-25-2013, 07:22 PM   #37 (permalink)
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Pretty sure 2 of the years that I am using for Smith he had Frank Gore, who went for near 1700 one season and went 1100 the next. I'd say that's a pretty dominant back that should have helped Smith, but I'm sure defenses stacked the box like they do against the Vikings and the offensive line couldn't hold up, just like the Vikings. And Percy couldnt stay healthy for the life of him but when he was healthy, Ponder benefitted. So actually, I'd say it's more then a fair comparison.
Is Ponder's team significantly different than what Favre had?
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Old 09-25-2013, 07:24 PM   #38 (permalink)
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I like Gore. He is in no way ALL DAY. Peterson couldve rushed for 1100 in the NFL while he was in high school lol. Not to discredit Gore but your comparing him to a future First Ballot Hall of Famer.
I'm not saying Gore is AP, but I am saying that Gore is an effective HB. When a team "only" has a "good" HB, defenses are going to stack the box and blitz often. If the offensive line struggles, it goes in the quarterback and doesn't reflect well. If a QB can get some time, that'll show the true type of QB they are. Smith had no time early in his career and once he got some, he turned into a pretty good QB. Ponder hasnt had much more time in his first 30 games then Smith did and it has shown.
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Old 09-25-2013, 07:24 PM   #39 (permalink)
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but, how about them browns hahaha
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Old 09-25-2013, 07:34 PM   #40 (permalink)
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I'm not saying Gore is AP, but I am saying that Gore is an effective HB. When a team "only" has a "good" HB, defenses are going to stack the box and blitz often. If the offensive line struggles, it goes in the quarterback and doesn't reflect well. If a QB can get some time, that'll show the true type of QB they are. Smith had no time early in his career and once he got some, he turned into a pretty good QB. Ponder hasnt had much more time in his first 30 games then Smith did and it has shown.
*cough* Aaron Rodgers *cough*

It isn't always about having time. Some would argue that GB has one of the worst O-lines in the league, but Rodgers is always near the top statistically... why? It is about being able to read the defense and find the correct WR. I don't watch enough Vikings games to know if he can do that, but it is pretty important.

Having time in the pocket just makes the average QBs come closer to the great QBs. If you give a QB enough time, no matter who he is, he will find players to throw to.
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Old 09-25-2013, 07:44 PM   #41 (permalink)
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Is Ponder's team significantly different than what Favre had?
I would actually say yes and it all started with NOT having Musgrave as offensive coordinator and having Leslie Frazier (a defensive mind) as defensive coordinator. Musgrave is the worst OC in the NFL as far as I am concerned.

The entire team is different this year then it was in 2009.

In 09, our depth chart ran like this

OFFENSE

QB-
Brett Favre
Tavaris Jackson
Sage Rosenfels

HB-
Adrian Peterson
Chester Taylor
Albert Young

FB-
Naufahu Tahi

WR-
Sidney Rice (career season)
Bernard Berrian
Percy Harvin
Greg Lewis
Jaymar Johnson
Darius Reynaud

TE-
Visanthe Shiancoe (career season)
Jim Kleinsasser
Jeff Dugan

LT-
Bryant McKinnie
Ryan Cook

LG-
Steve Hutchingson

C-
John Sullivan

RG-
Anthony Herrera

RT-
Phil Loadholt
Artis Hicks

DEFENSE

LE-
Ray Edwards
Jayme Mitchell

DT-
Pat Williams
Kevin Williams
Fred Evans
Letroy Guion
Jimmy Kennedy

RE-
Jared Allen
Brian Robison

LOLB-
Ben Leber
Erin Henderson

MLB-
EJ Henderson
Jasper Brinkley

ROLB-
Chad Greenway
Kenny Onatolu
Heath Farewell

CB-
Antoine Winfield
Cedric Griffin
Asher Allen
Benny Sapp
Karl Paymah

FS-
Madieu Williams
Husain Abdullah

SS-
Tyrell Johnson
Jamarca Sanford
Eric Frampton

K-
Ryan Longwell

P-
Chris Kluwe

Out of that team, we only have 10 players on the 2013 roster, which includes 0 QB, WR, TEs, LT, LG, RG, LE, MLB, CB, SS, FS. So no, it's not even close to the same team that Favre had in 2009.
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Old 09-25-2013, 07:49 PM   #42 (permalink)
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I would actually say yes and it all started with NOT having Musgrave as offensive coordinator and having Leslie Frazier (a defensive mind) as defensive coordinator. Musgrave is the worst OC in the NFL as far as I am concerned.

The entire team is different this year then it was in 2009.

In 09, our depth chart ran like this

OFFENSE

QB-
Brett Favre
Tavaris Jackson
Sage Rosenfels

HB-
Adrian Peterson
Chester Taylor
Albert Young

FB-
Naufahu Tahi

WR-
Sidney Rice (career season)
Bernard Berrian
Percy Harvin
Greg Lewis
Jaymar Johnson
Darius Reynaud

TE-
Visanthe Shiancoe (career season)
Jim Kleinsasser
Jeff Dugan

LT-
Bryant McKinnie
Ryan Cook

LG-
Steve Hutchingson

C-
John Sullivan

RG-
Anthony Herrera

RT-
Phil Loadholt
Artis Hicks

DEFENSE

LE-
Ray Edwards
Jayme Mitchell

DT-
Pat Williams
Kevin Williams
Fred Evans
Letroy Guion
Jimmy Kennedy

RE-
Jared Allen
Brian Robison

LOLB-
Ben Leber
Erin Henderson

MLB-
EJ Henderson
Jasper Brinkley

ROLB-
Chad Greenway
Kenny Onatolu
Heath Farewell

CB-
Antoine Winfield
Cedric Griffin
Asher Allen
Benny Sapp
Karl Paymah

FS-
Madieu Williams
Husain Abdullah

SS-
Tyrell Johnson
Jamarca Sanford
Eric Frampton

K-
Ryan Longwell

P-
Chris Kluwe

Out of that team, we only have 10 players on the 2013 roster, which includes 0 QB, WR, TEs, LT, LG, RG, LE, MLB, CB, SS, FS. So no, it's not even close to the same team that Favre had in 2009.
I am not talking about ACTUAL players, I am talking skill wise.
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Old 09-25-2013, 08:02 PM   #43 (permalink)
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Pshh put Joe Webb in
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Old 09-25-2013, 08:08 PM   #44 (permalink)
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I am not talking about ACTUAL players, I am talking skill wise.
Well even skill wise I'd say that we had a better team in 09. Defense was much better at every position (especially the LB core) and more physical, Favre had a career season, and honestly, I think we had a better OL as well. While we have improved in the WR category overall (let's face it, Rice had one good year and Berrian was a chump), with our offensive line playing worse then last year, we don't have much time to get it to those WRs. Let's see if anything changes with Felton returning to the FB position. Maybe he will help pick up the blitz and give Ponder an extra second or two to make a play.
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Old 09-25-2013, 08:13 PM   #45 (permalink)
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*cough* Aaron Rodgers *cough*

It isn't always about having time. Some would argue that GB has one of the worst O-lines in the league, but Rodgers is always near the top statistically... why? It is about being able to read the defense and find the correct WR. I don't watch enough Vikings games to know if he can do that, but it is pretty important.

Having time in the pocket just makes the average QBs come closer to the great QBs. If you give a QB enough time, no matter who he is, he will find players to throw to.
This is true, good qbs can win games without a line or recievers. Rodgers and cutler and I'll throw rivers in the mix since hes played so well this season, have all had success with little to no o line, as Rodgers was the most sacked last year, cutler the two years before that, and without overwhelmingly good recievers. Rodgers makes average recievers like Jennings look good, and cutler had guys who wouldn't be number 3s in most offenses to throw to in the 2010 and 11 season. Romo is another one with a below average o line who has had success. I don't think ponder will ever be able to adapt to having sh-t o lines, or a guy who will be able to make an average receiver. Look great like Rodgers did, I think he is, even at his peak, is going to be a 20+ QB in the league.
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Old 09-25-2013, 08:46 PM   #46 (permalink)
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This is true, good qbs can win games without a line or recievers. Rodgers and cutler and I'll throw rivers in the mix since hes played so well this season, have all had success with little to no o line, as Rodgers was the most sacked last year, cutler the two years before that, and without overwhelmingly good recievers. Rodgers makes average recievers like Jennings look good, and cutler had guys who wouldn't be number 3s in most offenses to throw to in the 2010 and 11 season. Romo is another one with a below average o line who has had success. I don't think ponder will ever be able to adapt to having sh-t o lines, or a guy who will be able to make an average receiver. Look great like Rodgers did, I think he is, even at his peak, is going to be a 20+ QB in the league.
Did you just put Cutler and Rivers in the same class as Rodgers?
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Old 09-25-2013, 09:01 PM   #47 (permalink)
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Did you just put Cutler and Rivers in the same class as Rodgers?
Way to completely miss any sort of point. Good work. Obviously Rodgers is better than them both, that had nothing to do with anything. And right now rivers is statistically outplaying every QB except Peyton, and he is on record setting pace.
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Old 09-25-2013, 09:32 PM   #48 (permalink)
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Way to completely miss any sort of point. Good work. Obviously Rodgers is better than them both, that had nothing to do with anything. And right now rivers is statistically outplaying every QB except Peyton, and he is on record setting pace.
No point missed. Just pointing out a bad comparison.
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Old 09-25-2013, 09:37 PM   #49 (permalink)
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No point missed. Just pointing out a bad comparison.
How do you figure? The comparison wasn't between Rodgers rivers and cutty, it was between 3 qbs that have success with no o line, and one that isn't having success with a bad o line.
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Old 09-25-2013, 09:40 PM   #50 (permalink)
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No point missed. Just pointing out a bad comparison.
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