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Old 09-25-2013, 09:46 PM   #51 (permalink)
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Default AP to Gore Really

Don't even compare Gore to AP. Not in any universe, let alone this one.

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Originally Posted by CC_123 View Post
Pretty sure 2 of the years that I am using for Smith he had Frank Gore, who went for near 1700 one season and went 1100 the next. I'd say that's a pretty dominant back that should have helped Smith, but I'm sure defenses stacked the box like they do against the Vikings and the offensive line couldn't hold up, just like the Vikings. And Percy couldnt stay healthy for the life of him but when he was healthy, Ponder benefitted. So actually, I'd say it's more then a fair comparison.
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Old 09-25-2013, 09:52 PM   #52 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by MarshallCutler6 View Post
How do you figure? The comparison wasn't between Rodgers rivers and cutty, it was between 3 qbs that have success with no o line, and one that isn't having success with a bad o line.
The first post I quoted talked about good QB's winning games despite a high number of sacks. You went back and looked at who has been sacked the most the past few years and picked players that have had personal success, but not necessarily win games.

Rivers team was 7-9 last year and 1-2 this year (he is having personal success but not team success). Romo is the same (personal success, but not team success). Cutler has ridden the back of the Bears defense up until this year (he was average, but the team won despite him). Rodgers is the only one in that group that has made his team better despite taking all of the sacks.

Hence the bad comparison.
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Old 09-25-2013, 09:55 PM   #53 (permalink)
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Good qb's make use of what they have.. and make existing players better.

Fact of the matter is, Ponder's lack of intermediary to deep passing severely inhibits the offense, and greatly diminishes opposing defenses field coverage. By stacking the box, not only are they daring Peterson to beat them single handedly, but also saying 'we do not respect your passing game at all.'

Now im not saying harvin harvin was the best thing since sliced bread, but even when he was healthy, ponder wasn't fully able to exploit his deep threat abilities due to his accuracy issues.

Until he's able to rectify his accuracy issues, he's not going to last long in the nfl, and end up 2010's matt leinart. Just ask John Skelton..you can have one of the top 3 receivers in the game, but if you can't deliver him the ball..it means nothing.
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Old 09-25-2013, 09:56 PM   #54 (permalink)
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Don't even compare Gore to AP. Not in any universe, let alone this one.
It wasn't a comparison was it? I was strictly saying that Smith had Gore for 2 of the years I am comparing him and Ponder in and that since Gore was the only weapon on the 49ers, Ponder and Smith saw similar defenses through 30-32 games
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Old 09-25-2013, 10:10 PM   #55 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by gergs1134 View Post
The first post I quoted talked about good QB's winning games despite a high number of sacks. You went back and looked at who has been sacked the most the past few years and picked players that have had personal success, but not necessarily win games.

Rivers team was 7-9 last year and 1-2 this year (he is having personal success but not team success). Romo is the same (personal success, but not team success). Cutler has ridden the back of the Bears defense up until this year (he was average, but the team won despite him). Rodgers is the only one in that group that has made his team better despite taking all of the sacks.

Hence the bad comparison.
I don't believe I specified wether or not the success needed to be personal or team. Romo is a good QB despite what people say, and he has had personal success, rivers has also had personal success, cutler has had a mix of both personal and team, and Rodgers has had an overwhelming amount of both personal and team success, the point is, one way or another they have all found a way to have success of some sort despite terrible protection, ponder has not.
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Old 09-25-2013, 10:13 PM   #56 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by MarshallCutler6 View Post
This is true, good qbs can win games without a line or recievers. Rodgers and cutler and I'll throw rivers in the mix since hes played so well this season, have all had success with little to no o line, as Rodgers was the most sacked last year, cutler the two years before that, and without overwhelmingly good recievers. Rodgers makes average recievers like Jennings look good, and cutler had guys who wouldn't be number 3s in most offenses to throw to in the 2010 and 11 season. Romo is another one with a below average o line who has had success. I don't think ponder will ever be able to adapt to having sh-t o lines, or a guy who will be able to make an average receiver. Look great like Rodgers did, I think he is, even at his peak, is going to be a 20+ QB in the league.
I guess by success I assumed you meant wins.
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Old 09-25-2013, 10:17 PM   #57 (permalink)
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I guess by success I assumed you meant wins.
That's true, I did make it sound like wins, mostly be ause I said just that lol, but I was thinking more success, not neccesarily in wins, since that can often times be out of a qbs control, hence Rodgers and rivers having losing records right now. But my apologies, you're right, I did originally say wins.
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Old 09-25-2013, 10:27 PM   #58 (permalink)
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I wish you the best with your QB and your analysis was certainly well thought out---

On a somewhat unrelated note: Mr Jennings. I hope you thank Mr. Rodgers every time you go to the bank and cash your check. He helped you more then you will ever care to admit get that nice contract you have. Although you took a shot at his leadership skills, I bet you wish you were back in good ol green bay catching the football.

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Old 09-25-2013, 10:28 PM   #59 (permalink)
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If you have AP as your running back with some good WRs to throw to there's no excuse why Ponder is not getting it done. Teams are stacking the box for AP you have to take advantage of the one on one match ups.
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Old 09-25-2013, 10:35 PM   #60 (permalink)
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Old 09-25-2013, 10:52 PM   #61 (permalink)
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Greg Jennings' sister trashes Aaron Rodgers on Twitter

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While Valyncia Jennings' Twitter account isn't verified, it is clearly her, as she is one of the 137 people Greg Jennings follows and has tweeted photos of his Super Bowl ring previously.

Via @VLacri:

"Aaron Rodgers come on u had GJ for the TD twice. Get him the����������geez!!!!!"

"Why was that ball under thrown like that, he was wide open make the throw for the receiver!!! Geeez!!"

"My God Aaron Rodgers holds the ball forever! GJ was wide open 5x for that touchdown! Goodness he acts like he doesn't want to throw to him��"

"GJ is the only receiver that has to jump in the air with both hands up to get the ��!!! It's ridiculous I pray he departs GB ASAP!"

"Aaron Rodgers smh! Had him in the slot wide open no one even covered him! Where is Peyton Manning when u need him! This is utterly pathetic"

Then she started tweeting at Jennings' wife Nicole.

"@Da_mrs_85 Eb, Cortney, and Jahlin. We are hot Mad! I've never seen a star receiver ever go through this smh! @GregJennings needs to bounce��"

"It is so obvious that @GregJennings is being blatantly ignored by ARod. Maybe @ halftime GJ should put on #18 then ARod will force �� to him!"

"Who can make a play @GregJennings can! He's the best freakin receiver these clowns got! Now take your talents to south beach & get paid!����"

"@GregJennings ball out so you can leave this team! They will miss u when your gone! It's all good bye packers! Cheap team, can't afford him"

"@Da_mrs_85 I don't freakin care he should have more catches, if this idiot could see the coverage!!�� Then he holds on to the ball & fumbles!"

"ARod is the most overrated QB in the league! He is no where near Peyton or Brady! It sickens me, Peyton would avg. 5 TD with this squad!!!"
Ponder must be a GOD SEND for Jennings...
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Old 09-25-2013, 10:54 PM   #62 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by CC_123 View Post
I think that I am the only believer in Christian Ponder on these boards. I'm not going to say he is going to put up 300+ yards every game, but I think that he can be the Alex Smith type of quarterback.

For the sake of making things easy, I'll just go by games played (1st 3 seasons)

Alex Smith-1st overall in 2005
32 games played
435-800 (54%)
4,679 yards
19 TD's
31 INT's
27 fumbles
Sacked 78 times
Record as starter 11-19
0 playoff appearance

Christian Ponder-12th overall in 2011
30 games played
517-874 (59%)
5,479 yards
33 TD's
30 INT's
15 fumbles
Sacked 72 times
Record as starter
Record as starter 12-17
1 playoff appearance

The stats are pretty similar through 30-32 games. Ponder does have a better completion percentage, more yards, and more TD's along with 1 less INT.

Here is why I STILL think Ponder can succeed. Everyone is being so tough on Ponder this season and blaming him for all 3 losses. I will give you the week 1 loss being on Ponder, but these past 2 weeks are not on him at all.

So far in 2013, Ponder has been sacked 10 times. Thats already 1/3rd of what he was sacked last season. The offensive line has given him absolutely no time to make reads and see where he should be going. He is running for his life more then he is standing in the pocket. Ponder wouldn't be receiving all of the criticism if the Vikings defense was able to hold up on defense the past 2 weeks on the opposing teams final drives. Ponder single handedly kept us in the game against the Browns using his legs. If the Vikings are sitting at 2-1 right now, all of the criticism is going on the offensive line for not blocking and the receivers for letting the ball bounce off their hands.

In 2012, Ponder led the Vikings to a 24-13 win over Alex Smith (his comparison) and outperformed him in that game. Ponder also beat Aaron Rodgers with an impressive game winning drive in a key game that got the Vikings into the postseason. Ponder threw 1 or less INT's in 12 games last season. Without Ponder, the Vikings wouldn't have made the playoffs. That showed when Webb played in the playoffs and couldn't handle it. Many Vikings fans felt that if Ponder would have played, we would have won that first playoff game.

You guys can sticky this, quote this, or do whatever you'd like to do with this. But people wanted Alex Smith out of San Fran for many years and now I bet they wish they could get him back. Smith may not have lived up to the 400+, 4 TD games that you expect out of a 1st overall pick, but what Smith does do is win games. And the reason why he wins games is because Harbaugh GAVE HIM A CHANCE and saw his potential! While it may take a little longer then Viking fans would hope, Ponder will mature into an NFL quarterback. Especially if the line can give him some time back there. Its still an early season, we are only 3 games in. I don't think its time to give up on Ponder. You won't see Cassel go in there and do any better. He has shown that he struggles immensely.

Ponder is going to go out there this Sunday (if his rib injury doesn't hold him out) against the Steelers and show all of the NFL why he is a starting quarterback and he will come out with the W going into the bye week. Ponder is the next coming of Alex Smith and the comparison shows it. Book it.

SKOL!
Sorry u feel that way but he'll be 0-4...

Bring on cassell
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Old 09-25-2013, 11:37 PM   #63 (permalink)
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Local twin cities Viking fan here.
I still remember exactly where I was when the shock and disappointment of the overreach for Christian in the draft hit me (one second after the pick was announced).
It was a disservice to Christian for him to be drafted so far above his skill level.

In the end , I agree with OP that Christian is comparable to Alex Smith. And, I don't want either one of them as QB1 for my team.

SKOL!
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Old 09-25-2013, 11:45 PM   #64 (permalink)
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I actually flew out from jersey to see the vikes last weekend anyways Im tired of the same old we have had trash at the qb position for the last 9/10 seasons even if ponder turns into a alex smith I want a play maker at qb!

Skol
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Old 09-25-2013, 11:49 PM   #65 (permalink)
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LOL! Ponder is one of the worst QBs I have ever seen. No accuracy, no arm strength. He constantly is staring down his first target and then freaking out and scrambling. That might work in college but not in the NFL.
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Old 09-25-2013, 11:51 PM   #66 (permalink)
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LOL! Ponder is one of the worst QBs I have ever seen. No accuracy, no arm strength. He constantly is staring down his first target and then freaking out and scrambling. That might work in college but not in the NFL.
cmon you know hes accurate on his check down 3 yard passes
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Old 09-25-2013, 11:53 PM   #67 (permalink)
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cmon you know hes accurate on his check down 3 yard passes
Oh yeah. Especially that pass to Jennings Sunday that he said he completes 999/1000 times.
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Old 09-25-2013, 11:56 PM   #68 (permalink)
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Haha If only ponder cared what we have to say! He's happy with his hot wife and fat wallet
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Old 09-25-2013, 11:56 PM   #69 (permalink)
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Oh yeah. Especially that pass to Jennings Sunday that he said he completes 999/1000 times.
I know its disgusting how bad he missed him too was even more concerning! I also want to know his thought process of throwing 5 yard dinker passes when we have 80 yards in 40 seconds with 1 TO i just dont get it
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Old 09-26-2013, 12:10 AM   #70 (permalink)
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I don't, I just.... What? 3 pages?

Choosing Alex Smith circa 05-07 as a comparable player does not make for a very strong argument. This is career best 200 yards, 1 TD per game Alex Smith we are talking about here. The dink and dunk passing offense is not going to get people off of AP. Teams are stuffing the box because they know Ponder is not going to beat them with his arm.

Serviceable game managers are great and everything, but the Vikings are letting the best running back of the last decade rot by not bringing in someone who can throw the deep ball. This is like watching Barry Sanders all over again. Spin it however looks good to you, but the Vikings are going nowhere if they can't scare defenses into thinking that a deep ball is a legit option in their offense. Why would you not stack 11 guys in the box if there is rarely concern of a pass over 10-15 yards?
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Old 09-26-2013, 08:37 AM   #71 (permalink)
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We have a Bingo, I completely agree!

QUOTE=shizzlemynizzle;5774364]I actually flew out from jersey to see the vikes last weekend anyways Im tired of the same old we have had trash at the qb position for the last 9/10 seasons even if ponder turns into a alex smith I want a play maker at qb!

Skol[/QUOTE]
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Old 09-26-2013, 08:58 AM   #72 (permalink)
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I think this is as simple as you can put it. I agree 100% with Seanathan297's statement. I doesn't matter what Ponder could potentially be. He absolutely is not helping the Vikings out now, in the prime of AP's career. This window of oppurtunity will close quickly and as long as Ponder, Musgrave and Frasier are there I think we will always be a non-Superbowl winning team (emphasis on winning team). I am a high school football coach and any bum (includng me) knows that you try to take away what a team does best and see if they can beat you with what they don't as well. Ponder is not good enough to do it. Sure there is a lot of other players not stepping up but the Vikings CAN NOT beat teams with what they don't do well....and that is passing the ball. So we will contue to watch AP break three tackles as the 4th or 5th tackler brings him down and he make 4-6 yards, then Ponder will get rushed and throw one incomplete and on 3rd down run a 3 yards bootleg pass to Rudolph to make 4th and one.....PUNT! I love the Vikes but it is killing me to see this much talent play like this!!!

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I don't, I just.... What? 3 pages?

Choosing Alex Smith circa 05-07 as a comparable player does not make for a very strong argument. This is career best 200 yards, 1 TD per game Alex Smith we are talking about here. The dink and dunk passing offense is not going to get people off of AP. Teams are stuffing the box because they know Ponder is not going to beat them with his arm.

Serviceable game managers are great and everything, but the Vikings are letting the best running back of the last decade rot by not bringing in someone who can throw the deep ball. This is like watching Barry Sanders all over again. Spin it however looks good to you, but the Vikings are going nowhere if they can't scare defenses into thinking that a deep ball is a legit option in their offense. Why would you not stack 11 guys in the box if there is rarely concern of a pass over 10-15 yards?
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Old 09-26-2013, 09:05 AM   #73 (permalink)
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I agree. This totally falls on Musgrave! I believe he's hindering Ponders development! Very bad play calling!


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I am pondering now that we have some good receivers, why we don't line up in three wide outs with a tight end formations more. Our FUll Back is hurt the first three games and we only or in a passing formation when the defense knows to zone blitz or just outright blitz. Not Ponder or the offense line can beat the blitz when his hot route is K Rudolph. He is to slow with getting rid of the ball.

I put the blame on the coaching staff, and the players. If there is a blitz and they see it they should audible to a screen or some kind of play similar to that(quick and designed to beat the blitz). That being said, Ponder I don't believe will ever be a good or even a game manager. I also believe that either Frazier or Musgrave will be fired before week 10. I personally would prefer it be Musgrave.
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Old 09-26-2013, 09:40 AM   #74 (permalink)
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If Im not mistaken, Ponder has good stats this year on the deeper pass. You're using last seasons stats. He's done better this year on 20+ yard passes, despite piss poor blocking. The O Line can't even open holes for AD anymore.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ninjacookies View Post
Good qb's make use of what they have.. and make existing players better.

Fact of the matter is, Ponder's lack of intermediary to deep passing severely inhibits the offense, and greatly diminishes opposing defenses field coverage. By stacking the box, not only are they daring Peterson to beat them single handedly, but also saying 'we do not respect your passing game at all.'

Now im not saying harvin harvin was the best thing since sliced bread, but even when he was healthy, ponder wasn't fully able to exploit his deep threat abilities due to his accuracy issues.

Until he's able to rectify his accuracy issues, he's not going to last long in the nfl, and end up 2010's matt leinart. Just ask John Skelton..you can have one of the top 3 receivers in the game, but if you can't deliver him the ball..it means nothing.
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Old 09-26-2013, 11:01 AM   #75 (permalink)
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I would keep a particular eye on the Vikings QB play next few weeks vis a vie Josh Freeman.
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