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rippit 12-31-2012 02:00 PM

All-Time U.S.-born team
 
So I'm bored at work today and the WJC got me thinking about who would make up the all-time U.S. born team and who is the best U.S. born player of all time. I based my choices on the NHL careers of the players, not what they did in international competition. I'm not going to get too long winded (or try not to) in the initial post in case no one cares , but here's what I came up with:

C - Mike Modano
RW - Joey Mullen
LW - Keith Tkachuk
D - Chris Chelios
D - Phil Housley
G - Tom Barrasso

Best U.S. born player ever - Chelios

I probably missed someone because I only thought about this for 15 minutes or so before I posted it. A few preemptive defenses of my choices:

-The second D was my toughest choice - it came down to Brian Leetch, Derian Hatcher and Housley. I went with Housley because of his point totals even though he's a pure "offenseman."

-My second toughest choice was goalie. I went with Barrasso mainly because of the two Stanley Cups and because I felt that at his peak (short though it was) he was a better goalie than Mike Richter (who I also considered) at his peak. I also gave a brief thought to Ryan Miller, but the fact that he never got his team to the Finals weighed heavily against him to me.

-I have the nagging feeling that I'm forgetting about someone at LW, which I'm sure someone will point out.

I'm interested to hear what choices you guys would make.

carlo16 12-31-2012 02:17 PM

Leetch over Housley

crabbygraphs 12-31-2012 02:18 PM

I like your list. Best US born player in my book would be Joe Mullen though. Always liked him since growing up in Pittsburgh. Chelios would be a close second though.

GoJays 12-31-2012 02:28 PM

It all depends whether or not you consider Brett Hull American. He played for the US in international competition, but grew up in Canada. Somewhat of a grey area there.

I would've put Leetch as the second defenseman, but that's just me.

Also, Frank Brimsek would've been my ideal choice for goalie. Though I can't say I ever saw him play (he played in the forties, I'm not THAT old!) The Hockey News rated him above Barrasso and Gartner on their list of the top 100 players (although the list was published in 1998, so it's easy to consider it invalid).

rippit 12-31-2012 02:32 PM

[QUOTE=GoJays;3925446]It all depends whether or not you consider Brett Hull American. He played for the US in international competition, but grew up in Canada. Somewhat of a grey area there.

I would've put Leetch as the second defenseman, but that's just me.

Also, Frank Brimsek would've been my ideal choice for goalie. Though I can't say I ever saw him play (he played in the forties, I'm not THAT old!) The Hockey News rated him above Barrasso and Gartner on their list of the top 100 players (although the list was published in 1998, so it's easy to consider it invalid).[/QUOTE]

I didn't consider Hull because he wasn't U.S. born or he would have been a lock. As far as Brimsek I have no idea, but he would probably have been a better choice than the others I considered - U.S. hasn't produced many great goalies.

rippit 12-31-2012 02:35 PM

[QUOTE=crabbygraphs;3925382]I like your list. Best US born player in my book would be Joe Mullen though. Always liked him since growing up in Pittsburgh. Chelios would be a close second though.[/QUOTE]

You gotta love Mullen - that was one of Patrick's trades that flew under the radar, but it might have been his second best behind the Ulf/Francis deal. I think the Pens gave up a 4th round draft choice to get him.

For best player, for me anyway, it came down to Modano or Chelios.

ilovethelakings 12-31-2012 02:43 PM

Because of the grey area GoJays mentioned, I will be leaving Hull off my list. Otherwise, he would had made it on fo' sho'.

G-Quick (Yes, I know he is still very early in his career, but when all is said and done he WILL go down as the greatest U.S. born goalie ever.)

D-Chelios (To leave him off would be criminal)

D-Leetch (A very close second to Chelios)

C-Roenick (I love Modano just as much as the next guy, but I like JR's edge. LaFontaine also considered for this spot)

LW-Tkachuk (Barely edges out LeClair)

RW-Mullen (This could end up being Kane's spot if his potential is realized. Non-blonde Amonte was also considered for this spot.)

Best US born player: Chelios

223 01-01-2013 11:37 AM

[QUOTE=rippit;3925479]U.S. hasn't produced many great goalies.[/QUOTE]

The last two Conn Smythe trophies were won by American goalies. Takes more than one or two good games to win that award. Ryan Miller was nothing short of outstanding in the Olympics.

rippit 01-01-2013 12:37 PM

[QUOTE=223;3930579]The last two Conn Smythe trophies were won by American goalies. Takes more than one or two good games to win that award. Ryan Miller was nothing short of outstanding in the Olympics.[/QUOTE]

I agree that one or two games doesn't get you the Conn Smythe - to me that's the most prestigious award in hockey. Thomas has been dominant the past few years, but it's only been a few years. At his age, I don't think he'll have a long enough career to be considered a "great" goalie - more like a very good goalie who had a few dominant years. Quick could get there - he's young and he has an excellent team in front of him, but right now I wouldn't call him "great" either. He definitely has the potential - five years from now if he keeps up his current level of play he'd probably be my starting goaltender.

As far as Miller, you're right - the U.S. doesn't even get to the gold medal game without him, let alone take Canada into OT. But I based my choices on what players have done at the NHL level (otherwise Jim Craig would be my choice in goal), and Miller's play has been declining the past few years. Plus he's never been to a Stanley Cup final, which admittedly has a lot to do with the team in front of him. During his peak period (which appears to be over) he was no doubt one of the top goalies in the league, but he just never had the team to get him over the hump.

Just as a note, when I say the U.S. hasn't produced any "great" goalies, I'm talking about goalies in the Roy/Brodeur/Hasek/Fuhr class. You could say the same thing about a lot of countries.

charnick 01-03-2013 04:02 PM

wow, what a wonderful thread to read, but a crime that Pat LaFontaine is barely mentioned. he spent a lot of time concussed, so the career numbers are a little low, but for pure scoring, IMHO he was better than modano, roenick & joey mullen. and i love those guys.

XL5 01-03-2013 04:07 PM

[QUOTE=rippit;3930862]
Just as a note, when I say the U.S. hasn't produced any "great" goalies, I'm talking about goalies in the Roy/Brodeur/Hasek/Fuhr class. You could say the same thing about a lot of countries.[/QUOTE]

Are we limiting this to post 1980? If not, where is Frank Brimsek on both lists?

And agree with Leetch in for Housley.

ilovethelakings 01-03-2013 04:55 PM

[QUOTE=charnick;3945979]wow, what a wonderful thread to read, but a crime that Pat LaFontaine is barely mentioned. he spent a lot of time concussed, so the career numbers are a little low, but for pure scoring, IMHO he was better than modano, roenick & joey mullen. and i love those guys.[/QUOTE]

If I were to just choose 3 forwards and not 3 by the positions they usually played, he would had made my cut. LaFontaine is one of those great "what could had been" type of players.

[QUOTE=XL5;3946016]Are we limiting this to post 1980? If not, where is Frank Brimsek on both lists?

And agree with Leetch in for Housley.[/QUOTE]

I have nothing against Brimsek, but I will admit I am a bit biased when it comes to Quick, especially because it has been a very very very long time since my team has had a goalie of his caliber. ;) Mr. Zero was a fantastic player back in his day without a doubt, but I have to go with the player I have seen play more often. It is also hard to ignore what Barrasso did during his playing days. I do not think we will EVER see a player come out of a US high school and do what he did.

AsInHowe 01-03-2013 05:35 PM

Like an All-Star roster, with honorable mentions below each category.

F - Pat Lafontaine
F - Mike Modano
F - Neal Broten
F - Jeremy Roenick
F - Joe Mullen
F - Chris Drury
F - John LeClair
F - Keith Tkachuk
F - Zach Parise
F - Doug Weight
F - Ryan Kesler
F - Mark Johnson

Patrick Kane
Tony Amonte
Tony Granato

D - Chris Chelios
D - Phil Housley
D - Brian Leetch
D - Mark Howe
D - Ken Morrow
D - Derian Hatcher

Ryan Suter
Brian Rafalski
Gary Suter
Kevin Hatcher
Mike Ramsey

G - Frank Brimsek
G - Mike Richter
G - Ryan Miller

Tom Barrasso
John Vanbiesbrouck
Jim Craig
Jonathan Quick

charnick 01-03-2013 08:13 PM

now that's a solid roster... my only nitpick would be to swap out Amonte for Parise or Kesler, but only because they he had a longer career so far (and he's one of my all time faves, since his BU days), but I certainly can't complain they way you have it here.

GoJays 01-03-2013 09:11 PM

AsInHowe, I wouldn't put Mark Howe on your list, as he falls into that grey area.

He was A: a son of a Canadian and B: represented Canada on an international stage.

Good roster, though.

solt0131 01-04-2013 07:49 AM

Who would be the 6 greatest Canadian players then? In a starting 6 format.

rippit 01-04-2013 10:08 AM

[QUOTE=solt0131;3950677]Who would be the 6 greatest Canadian players then? In a starting 6 format.[/QUOTE]

I'll give that a go - off the top of my head (and choosing the forwards regardless of position):

F - Wayne Gretzky (duh)
F - Mario Lemieux (double duh)
F - Gordie Howe (triple duh)
D - Bobby Orr
D - Ray Bourque
G - Terry Sawchuk

Wow - again, until I got to the goalie that was pretty easy

And I'll admit I blew it on my Housley call - should have been Leetch

Okay, who's next? Russia? Sweden? Finland?

rippit 01-04-2013 10:09 AM

[QUOTE=AsInHowe;3946742]Like an All-Star roster, with honorable mentions below each category.

F - Pat Lafontaine
F - Mike Modano
F - Neal Broten
F - Jeremy Roenick
F - Joe Mullen
F - Chris Drury
F - John LeClair
F - Keith Tkachuk
F - Zach Parise
F - Doug Weight
F - Ryan Kesler
F - Mark Johnson

Patrick Kane
Tony Amonte
Tony Granato

D - Chris Chelios
D - Phil Housley
D - Brian Leetch
D - Mark Howe
D - Ken Morrow
D - Derian Hatcher

Ryan Suter
Brian Rafalski
Gary Suter
Kevin Hatcher
Mike Ramsey

G - Frank Brimsek
G - Mike Richter
G - Ryan Miller

Tom Barrasso
John Vanbiesbrouck
Jim Craig
Jonathan Quick[/QUOTE]

Love the Morrow and Hatcher calls.

AsInHowe 01-04-2013 10:16 AM

[QUOTE=GoJays;3948480]AsInHowe, I wouldn't put Mark Howe on your list, as he falls into that grey area.

He was A: a son of a Canadian and B: represented Canada on an international stage.

Good roster, though.[/QUOTE]

Mark Howe played for the USA in the 1972 Olympics and the 1981 Canada Cup.

He only played for Canada on the WHA's team against the Soviet Union in 1974, so he could play alongside Gordie and Marty.

AsInHowe 01-04-2013 10:31 AM

[QUOTE=solt0131;3950677]Who would be the 6 greatest Canadian players then? In a starting 6 format.[/QUOTE]

Greatest six in starting format:

C - Wayne Gretzky
LW - Maurice Richard
RW - Gordie Howe
D - Bobby Orr
D - Doug Harvey
G - Patrick Roy

And in All-Star format:

F - Wayne Gretzky
F - Gordie Howe
F - Maurice Richard
F - Steve Yzerman
F - Mario Lemieux
F - Mark Messier
F - Phil Esposito
F - Guy Lafleur
F - Bobby Hull
F - Joe Sakic
F - Brendan Shanahan
F - Sidney Crosby

Jarome Iginla
Ron Francis
Luc Robitaille
Joe Thornton
Mike Bossy
Marcel Dionne
Gilbert Perreault
Bryan Trottier
Paul Henderson
Frank Mahovlich
Darryl Sittler

D - Bobby Orr
D - Doug Harvey
D - Ray Bourque
D - Al MacInnis
D - Larry Robinson
D - Scott Niedermayer

Shea Weber
Chris Pronger
Rob Blake
Chris Pronger
Scott Stevens
Paul Coffey
Brad Park
Serge Savard

G - Terry Sawchuk
G - Ken Dryden
G - Patrick Roy

Jacques Plante
Grant Fuhr
Martin Brodeur

rippit 01-04-2013 10:34 AM

[QUOTE=AsInHowe;3951110]Greatest six in starting format:

C - Wayne Gretzky
LW - Maurice Richard
RW - Gordie Howe
D - Bobby Orr
D - Doug Harvey
G - Patrick Roy

And in All-Star format:

F - Wayne Gretzky
F - Gordie Howe
F - Maurice Richard
F - Steve Yzerman
F - Mario Lemieux
F - Mark Messier
F - Phil Esposito
F - Guy Lafleur
F - Bobby Hull
F - Joe Sakic
F - Brendan Shanahan
F - Sidney Crosby

Jarome Iginla
Ron Francis
Luc Robitaille
Joe Thornton
Mike Bossy
Marcel Dionne
Gilbert Perreault
Bryan Trottier
Paul Henderson
Frank Mahovlich
Darryl Sittler

D - Bobby Orr
D - Doug Harvey
D - Ray Bourque
D - Al MacInnis
D - Larry Robinson
D - Scott Niedermayer

Shea Weber
Chris Pronger
Rob Blake
Chris Pronger
Scott Stevens
Paul Coffey
Brad Park
Serge Savard

G - Terry Sawchuk
G - Ken Dryden
G - Patrick Roy

Jacques Plante
Grant Fuhr
Martin Brodeur[/QUOTE]

Nice choices, but you missed a big one - Jean Beliveau.

AsInHowe 01-04-2013 12:59 PM

[QUOTE=rippit;3951132]Nice choices, but you missed a big one - Jean Beliveau.[/QUOTE]

He never played for Team Canada, knocking him off my list.

ilovethelakings 01-04-2013 06:19 PM

[QUOTE=AsInHowe;3951853]He never played for Team Canada, knocking him off my list.[/QUOTE]

But neither did Richard or Harvey. Shanahan was a great player without a doubt, but I would rather have Le Gros Bill over him any day of the week. Hell, I would take him over Crosby.


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