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Old 01-10-2014, 03:11 PM   #26 (permalink)
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Default Crsoby vs Toews

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Originally Posted by duwal View Post
exactly, people can insult or call Crosby names all that they want but he is still easily the best player and most skilled player in the world. But everyone else is entitled to their opinion even if a lot of them against Crosby might be based more with homerism. Toews is a great player but some might even argue that he isn't even the best player on his own team
I agree Toews isn't the ebst player on the Blackhawks. I think Kane is better then Toews.
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Old 01-10-2014, 03:16 PM   #27 (permalink)
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Barry Melrose says Crosby is the best player in the world. I think he knows more then any of you, not being rude but its facts. Crosby doesn't get the game winning goal last Olympics then maybe Canada doesn't win Gold. He is the best, and just like basketball people love to hate on Lebron. Its hard to accept for some of you, but you gotta deal with reality.

I'm starting to think this has to be a joke thread now. All the guy is bringing up is Toews 2 Stanley Cups to Crosby's 1 but the FACT is the best player in hockey doesn't necessarily have to ever win a Stanley Cup. Team achievements and personal achievements can be very different. Legends like Marcel Dionne, Peter Stastny, Adam Oates, etc. retired with never having their name printed on Lord Stanley
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Old 01-10-2014, 03:18 PM   #28 (permalink)
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Your only proof of Toews being the "best" player in the NHL over Crosby is that he has one more cup than Crosby. So, I guess that automatically makes him the best player? Makes sense...

So, hypothetically, the best player in the world could play for the worst team in the NHL for 15 years and never win a cup. So, with your logic, since he has no cups, he sucks. Even though his talent proves he is the best in the world. Go troll somewhere else.
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Old 01-10-2014, 03:37 PM   #29 (permalink)
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just stop feeding the troll this is all he wants ....if you look at his thread this is what he does posts and then when you don't agree with his BS it turns into this .....just leave them be maybe they'll go away
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Old 01-10-2014, 05:22 PM   #30 (permalink)
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So I guess Henri Richard is the greatest of all time? By your logic he's almost six times better than Bobby Orr, because he has 11 Cups and Orr has 2. And I guess Borje Salming isn't in the same league as Patrick Sharp in terms or greatness, as he never won a Stanley Cup (just as reference, the IIHF named Salming to the All-Century team).

Your logic is flawed, you have no real argument and are simply looking to get a reaction. There should be no argument as to who the best player in the world is; his name is Phil Kessel, and he's in a league of his own.
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Old 01-10-2014, 06:40 PM   #31 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by rhcardinals3 View Post
Let's see who gets voted to be Team Canada's captain. My money is on Crosby.
I bet he does too. Doesn't make it right or the best option when Toews is also on the team. I understand having Sid as Captain has more to do with identity then actual talent, he is the media and the NHL hand picked poster child for the sport. But chances are Toews will again be the better player just like last time.
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Barry Melrose says Crosby is the best player in the world. I think he knows more then any of you, not being rude but its facts.
The same Barry Melrose who benched Steven Stamko's and was subsequently fired maybe a little bit over a month later? He knows how to perfectly rock a mullet, better then I ever could, I give him that. But hockey? Nah.
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Crosby doesn't get the game winning goal last Olympics then maybe Canada doesn't win Gold.
And if Toews doesn't take over Team Canada in the gold medal game, chances are Sid doesn't even get into position to score the "golden goal". See, theres a lot of benefactors at play beyond looking at the stat sheet, many of which Toews, as a player, excels at. Bergeron is an elite two way forward. Its funny that he becomes that player after playing on the same line as Toews.
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He is the best, and just like basketball people love to hate on Lebron. Its hard to accept for some of you, but you gotta deal with reality.
Trying to compare Lebron to Sid isn't fair to Sid. Lebron in his prime has won two titles, while Sid, in his prime, only has won one.Lebron has dominated the NBA while Sid has a couple awards to show for his carrer without flat out Lebron domination. Ovechkin would be a better comparison to Lebron, honestly, and OV isn't close to the player or winner Toews is.
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I agree Toews isn't the ebst player on the Blackhawks. I think Kane is better then Toews.
And that's a great opinion to have, but until I see Kane PK'ing a shift or be considered defensively respectful in no way do I consider him on par with Toews, or Keith for that matter. To Kanes credit, he has been better this year in his own zone, but still likes to cherry pick his spots.
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I'm starting to think this has to be a joke thread now. All the guy is bringing up is Toews 2 Stanley Cups to Crosby's 1 but the FACT is the best player in hockey doesn't necessarily have to ever win a Stanley Cup. Team achievements and personal achievements can be very different. Legends like Marcel Dionne, Peter Stastny, Adam Oates, etc. retired with never having their name printed on Lord Stanley
So personal achievements trump the reason why they actually play the game? I never heard a kid, while playing pond hockey, say they wanted to win the Art Ross trophy, I heard then say they want to win the Cup. Marcel Dionne was fantastic, but he will always be nothing but a fantastic player in my book instead of a winner. Ill take a winner ever day and twice on sunday before dinner over somebody who is fantastic.2 Cups change your opinion drastically and thank the lord the team I root for, your Champion Blackhawks, feel the exact same way and nothing short of a Cup is now considered a failure. Once it sinks in, that frame of mind is hard to shake.
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Your only proof of Toews being the "best" player in the NHL over Crosby is that he has one more cup than Crosby. So, I guess that automatically makes him the best player? Makes sense...
No, he is the better player because he is a winner. Sid isn't. Toews plays every facet of the game at an extremely high level beyond a stat sheet. Crysby nation points at his offensive production and says that's enough proof. Theres the impass and a telling sign as to what somebody deems more valuable to a team.Sid scores more and gets more trophies. Toews gets more Cups and is a beast every inch of ice. Toews has proven when the chips are down he will most certainly rise to the occasion and has done it thru out his career. Sid melted down last year like a stick of butter in the microwave over Chara.....Chara. The same Chara Toews made look stupid with a pass between his own legs to a waiting Bickell to feast on and turn Tukka into Chokka.
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So, hypothetically, the best player in the world could play for the worst team in the NHL for 15 years and never win a cup. So, with your logic, since he has no cups, he sucks. Even though his talent proves he is the best in the world.
What talent? Offensive talent? Or the talent to lead a team and do whatever it takes to win a game? Sid has one, Toews has the other.
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Go troll somewhere else.
Well, its kind of my thread. I didn't tell you to click on it or reply to it. Who, exactly, is trolling?
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just stop feeding the troll this is all he wants ....if you look at his thread this is what he does posts and then when you don't agree with his BS it turns into this .....just leave them be maybe they'll go away
So wait, trying to debate is now considered, hot word, trolling because my opinion doesn't agree with everybody else? Having an open mind and seeing things as more important is now an internet cliché? Please, and I know its catchy and "cool" to use internet catch words but understand what, specifically a "troll" is is far more useful when you deem one as such considering that this is, realistically, a thread that I started. Its ok though. Its just a message board.
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So I guess Henri Richard is the greatest of all time?
Well, considering we are talking two different time frames and that the Habs pretty much had a monopoly in signing young players, it could be, realistically said that the many Cup wins of those Canadian teams are some what tainted. I also, sadly, never saw Richard play, way before my time. But, talking right here in 2014, where the NHL has installed a salary cap restricting teams from paying for the best players and parity is at its highest its ever been, Toews is the best player in the NHL. Henri Richard really doesn't have anything to do with this conversation unless he puts on some skates, which isn't gonna happen, obviously. Sid VS Toews, now, that's the basis of debate.
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Your logic is flawed, you have no real argument and are simply looking to get a reaction.
A debate is the only reaction. If Sid is so great, how come theres only one Cup on his resume? If he is a "generational" talent, those types of talents, Gretzky,Mario, etc, have more then one Cup. Could he get another one? Maybe if Toews some how gets traded to Pittsburgh. but he has proven, while in his prime, no less, that he just cant put a team on his back and will them to the promise land. Toews did it three times already- twice with the Hawks and once for his country.

Debate? Yes?

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There should be no argument as to who the best player in the world is; his name is Phil Kessel, and he's in a league of his own.
Truer words have never been spoken.


Again, great job, guys.
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Old 01-10-2014, 06:49 PM   #32 (permalink)
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There is no player in the NHL you could trade one for one to get Crosby. There are two that would get you Toews in a one for one. Malkin or Stamkos.
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Old 01-10-2014, 07:03 PM   #33 (permalink)
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Toews is my favorite non-Bruins, and I hate the Penguins, but Crosby> Toews
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Old 01-10-2014, 07:23 PM   #34 (permalink)
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Where the majority of this thread has been utter BS, this one statement had to be ONE of the more moronic

Bergeron is an elite two way forward. Its funny that he becomes that player after playing on the same line as Toews.


Bergeron not only won the Selky Trophy before Toews in the 2011-12 season, but he has been a contender for the award almost every year of his career.
His playing for 2 weeks with Toews had absolutely nothing to do with his success in that 2011-12 season, but perhaps is the reason Toews was able to win it the following season, because he was able to see how it's done by the veteran Bergeron! You see two can play this game.

Next your probably going to say Bergeron played with cracked ribs and a punctured lung because he had previously played with your 'boy toy'

Again great job of not only making an ass of yourself but basically talking out of that same ass

And no this is not a debate but rather an honest response to yet another dumb ass comment.
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Old 01-10-2014, 07:31 PM   #35 (permalink)
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There is no player in the NHL you could trade one for one to get Crosby. There are two that would get you Toews in a one for one. Malkin or Stamkos.
And to that, I say why, would the Hawks want to trade away their franchise player for either?

What does Malkin do? Is he better offensively? Sure he is, but the Hawks don't have any problems scoring goals. Is he better defensively then Toews, good lord, not even in the same ball park. He is also injury prone, so again, why would the Hawks want him? If anybody wanted Toews, a severe over payment would be the only option. That's reality, sadly.

Stamko's? Why would the Hawks want another scoring winger and lose their franchise center? When did the Hawks suddenly forget to score?


Good reply
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Old 01-10-2014, 07:41 PM   #36 (permalink)
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So I didn't want to continue with this thread, but here is some light-reading for you:

From TSN, you know, the leader in NHL reporting:

Crosby tops list again in NHL on TSN Top 50 Players Ranking

I think you'll enjoy #'s 1 and 3 specifically. To respond also to your reply to me about what "hockey circles" I'm referring to, please enjoy the paragraph that states that this list was made by 14 NHL GM's and coaches. Those, are hockey circles.
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Old 01-10-2014, 08:01 PM   #37 (permalink)
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Bergeron not only won the Selky Trophy before Toews in the 2011-12 season, but he has been a contender for the award almost every year of his career.
LOL Whut?

Selke Votes by year for Bergeron

03/04- 0 votes
04/05 lockout
05/06- 0 votes
06/07- 0 votes
07/08- 0 votes
08/09- 0 votes
After playing with Toews
09/10- 4 votes
10/11- 59 votes
11/12- wins Selke
12/13- 164 votes

Hmm.........


Good reply tho. Keep em coming.
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Old 01-10-2014, 08:58 PM   #38 (permalink)
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LOL Whut?

Selke Votes by year for Bergeron

03/04- 0 votes
04/05 lockout
05/06- 0 votes
06/07- 0 votes
07/08- 0 votes
08/09- 0 votes
After playing with Toews
09/10- 4 votes
10/11- 59 votes
11/12- wins Selke
12/13- 164 votes

Hmm.........


Good reply tho. Keep em coming.
Sure more BS, Keep it coming!

Playing 2 weeks with Toews changed HIS game with the Bruins, had nothing to do with the fact he got better linemates along with a vastlyl improved team, you really are clutching now!

The reason Toews finally won the Selky is obviously because he played along side Bergeron and naturally won the award the following season!

Toews is an equivalent player to Bergeron as they both have won (1) Selky Trophy, Bergeron is a better 2 way player as he won the Selky before Toews, see what I did there!!

Check the votes, Toews numbers improved after playing with Bergeron, I think the improvement in Toews overall defensive game is a direct result of playing with and learning from Bergeron who is arguably one of the best two way players in the game.

Hmmmm Good stats keep em coming
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Old 01-10-2014, 09:18 PM   #39 (permalink)
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Cryby?
and right from the start, this is just one example of why there's no legitimate debate here. Crosby haters are blinded by their irrational hate (or maybe it's secret love) of Crosby.


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Ovechkin has been a more dominant player then Crysby, imo, and has yet to drink from Lord Stanleys Cup.
how exactly has Ovechkin been more dominant? he scores goals... but he doesn't win as much. his overall stats aren't as good. he doesn't make those around him that much better (see, Kunitz). Ovechkin is a great goal scorer.... if that's what determines dominance then we can end the whole debate right here because Crosby has more goals than Toews. so, therefore, Crosby is dominant over Toews by your logic.


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Subjective when he was given that honor by the Olympic committee? (shakes head).
that's pretty much the definition of subjective. it was given to him by a committee. and we won't even bother discussing the ethical lapses of Olympic committees.


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What does, exactly, Sidney Crysby do? Win Cups? Toews has won one more and will captain his team to yet another one this year. I don't understand what it is that Crysby does outside of scoring.
here's that irrational hatred (love) again. let's see... he scores goals, he creates opportunities/assist for others, he keeps his team winning, he's been to 2 Finals and won 1 Cup, so far. then there's the scoring titles, mvp, olympic gold, etc. not to mention he represents as the face of the NHL.

stop acting as if Toews has 5 Cups and Crosby has none. Toews has 1 more, Crosby has plenty of seasons left in him and this is his first healthy one if 4 years.

and when Chicago doesn't win the Cup this year, and they won't, i'll be sure to remind you of your prediction.


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I think it was Crysby who scored the "golden goal". The "star" of the team just got off the ice and was catching his breath
spin it however you want... Toews wasn't even on the ice. Crosby took control, made the play and scored the winning goal.

for years to come when Canadians remember the Gold Goal they'll talk about Crosby, mention Iginla but Toews will never come up.


the title of your thread is almost proof enough.... Toews vs Crosby. as i've said before, no debate about who is the best takes place unless it's [insert name] or Crosby. he's the standard which others, including Toews, are judged by.
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Old 01-10-2014, 09:18 PM   #40 (permalink)
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Damn dude...the Blackhawks post lockout bandwagon really hit you hard.
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Old 01-10-2014, 09:20 PM   #41 (permalink)
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And to that, I say why, would the Hawks want to trade away their franchise player for either?

What does Malkin do? Is he better offensively? Sure he is, but the Hawks don't have any problems scoring goals. Is he better defensively then Toews, good lord, not even in the same ball park. He is also injury prone, so again, why would the Hawks want him? If anybody wanted Toews, a severe over payment would be the only option. That's reality, sadly.

Stamko's? Why would the Hawks want another scoring winger and lose their franchise center? When did the Hawks suddenly forget to score?


Good reply

Chicago couldn't get Crosby for Toews and Saad. Stop.

Team need you say? OK, I'll play along. They wouldn't give up Malkin for anything less than Toews and that's simply swapping centers. Malkin carried Pittsburgh by himself when Crosby was hurt. Toews has never done that nor could he. He doesn't score enough. You can go on about the Gold Medal all you want. Even throw in the two Cups if you'd like but Malkin has a Conn Smythe himself. You can even argue Toews is better defensively which he is however....

He wouldn't have won the Selke if Datysuk didn't have concussion issues that year. You can argue otherwise until you're blue in the face. Considering they were in the same division last year you would have seen this even if you won't acknowledge it. Toews would not have won it. It's that simple.

Tampa wouldn't give up the best goal scorer in the league for him. Arguing over a need vs strength and why it would be practical isn't the argument or point I'm trying to make. Whether Chicago needs another goal scorer or not was not the point of my statement. Simply pointing out that if Toews is the player you feel he is then tell me which elite player in the league they could get for him in a one for one deal? I've just given you two that wouldn't get it done.

You can't name me one player in the NHL Pittsburgh would trade Crosby one for one.

If you want to kick it back to "well that's not a need" then be my guest. If Toews is the best thing on skates then there's no GM in the league who wouldn't trade whatever they had to get him.
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Old 01-10-2014, 09:29 PM   #42 (permalink)
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By replying to all the Crysby apologists with proven fact about Toews? It takes very little effort pointing that out, so again, square one. Two Cups next to one for two players who are captains of their respected teams and considered the cogs of their franchises. What part of that cannot be proven, again?
if this is your argument, then it's an intellectually dishonest one. you're ignoring the fact that Crosby lost the better part of 4 seasons to injuries. including missing 20+ games while injured the year they lost in the finals to Detroit.

now that he's healthy, let's see how it works out.

has Toews taken his team on a 15 game win streak? has he led a roster full of AHL'ers to the most wins so far this season?

here's a good article on not only why Crosby is the best, but why he's actually underrated... Why Sidney Crosby is actually underrated - NHL - SI.com
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Old 01-10-2014, 09:31 PM   #43 (permalink)
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Chicago couldn't get Crosby for Toews and Saad. Stop.

Team need you say? OK, I'll play along. They wouldn't give up Malkin for anything less than Toews and that's simply swapping centers. Malkin carried Pittsburgh by himself when Crosby was hurt. Toews has never done that nor could he. He doesn't score enough. You can go on about the Gold Medal all you want. Even throw in the two Cups if you'd like but Malkin has a Conn Smythe himself. You can even argue Toews is better defensively which he is however....

He wouldn't have won the Selke if Datysuk didn't have concussion issues that year. You can argue otherwise until you're blue in the face. Considering they were in the same division last year you would have seen this even if you won't acknowledge it. Toews would not have won it. It's that simple.

Tampa wouldn't give up the best goal scorer in the league for him. Arguing over a need vs strength and why it would be practical isn't the argument or point I'm trying to make. Whether Chicago needs another goal scorer or not was not the point of my statement. Simply pointing out that if Toews is the player you feel he is then tell me which elite player in the league they could get for him in a one for one deal? I've just given you two that wouldn't get it done.

You can't name me one player in the NHL Pittsburgh would trade Crosby one for one.

If you want to kick it back to "well that's not a need" then be my guest. If Toews is the best thing on skates then there's no GM in the league who wouldn't trade whatever they had to get him.
I definitely agree; especially with the bolded. Datsyuk is one of the premier defensive players in the game. He's pretty much the standard (along with Bergeron) for a defensive forward, with fantastic offensive capabilities.
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Old 01-10-2014, 09:31 PM   #44 (permalink)
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Toews doesn't have the sense of entitlement Crysby feels he deserves, which separates them onto two different levels. Every player cries to the refs, but nobody does it as frequently as good ol Sid. If Sid gets his feelings hurt, the game stops so the refs can comfort him.
this is a ridiculous myth.

if this is true, please give an example or 2... we'll be waiting.
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Old 01-10-2014, 09:35 PM   #45 (permalink)
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So personal achievements trump the reason why they actually play the game? I never heard a kid, while playing pond hockey, say they wanted to win the Art Ross trophy, I heard then say they want to win the Cup. !
so then, it's settled... Bryan Trottier was better than Gretzky, since he won more cups. got it.
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Old 01-10-2014, 11:27 PM   #46 (permalink)
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Old 01-10-2014, 11:31 PM   #47 (permalink)
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Barry Melrose says Crosby is the best player in the world. I think he knows more then any of you, not being rude but its facts. Crosby doesn't get the game winning goal last Olympics then maybe Canada doesn't win Gold. He is the best, and just like basketball people love to hate on Lebron. Its hard to accept for some of you, but you gotta deal with reality.
lol. On guys opinion is automatically better than any of ours. A FACT! gotca.
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Old 01-11-2014, 04:57 AM   #48 (permalink)
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I love this guys argument. Ill lay it down like this

Crosby created 2 20+ goal scorers. Who you ask? Ryan Malone and Colby Armstrong. Where is Colby and Malone now?

Who did Toews make better? Kane? Kane was already better.

How many MVP's does Toews have?

How many Scoring titles does Toews have?

How many Richard Trophys does Toews have?

How many times has Toews matched Crosbys scoring even when Sid was injured for half seasons.

Who were Kunitz and Dupris before Crosby?

Toews is a great talent but simple fact is if you put Toews on Pittsburgh the Pens don't win in 2009. If you put Crosby on Chicago your looking at a possible Dynasty.

Also I look at Crosbys whinning as this. If you know your gonna get the call 60% of the time and put your high powered offense on the power play and win more games then I ask you why not? If Toews was as good as Crosby maybe he would use his whinning abilities to grab some more calls.

Until you can answer those questions with Toews having more of those things then Sid you lose.

Note to OP you don't beat the Flyers if KANE doesn't score the OT winner. NOT TOEWS
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Old 01-11-2014, 10:32 AM   #49 (permalink)
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Toews is my favorite player, and the only player whose cards I collect. That being said, a few comments:

1) Crosby is the best player in the world.

2) Crosby's whining is much better than in the early part of his career, and the crybaby comments now seem silly.

3) Anyone who says Toews is not a top-10 talent obviously has never played the game and has no grasp of what wins games. The last Hockey News poll of coaches and GMs had him third behind Crosby and Malkin. He's a point per game guy who plays defense as well as any forward, wins faceoffs and kills penalties.

4) I think Crosby should captain the Olympic team. His leadership skills are overlooked, but he has the players' respect.

5) I wonder how often the Pens regret drafting Jordan Staal second overall in 2006, leaving the Hawks to take Toews with the next pick.

6) Crosby's defensive play is underrated.

Two great players, both of whom will be in the Hall of Fame. Toews is an awesome player, and there's no shame in being behind Sid on any list.
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Old 01-11-2014, 10:39 AM   #50 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by ncm7772 View Post
This made me laugh out loud on my flight!!!

Thanks for the pic!
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