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Old 01-11-2014, 12:01 PM   #51 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Fleurycup09 View Post


Note to OP you don't beat the Flyers if LEIGHTON doesn't fail to close his five hole. NOT TOEWS
Fixed it for you.
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Old 01-11-2014, 02:34 PM   #52 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by thetheham View Post
LOL Whut?

Selke Votes by year for Bergeron

03/04- 0 votes
04/05 lockout
05/06- 0 votes
06/07- 0 votes
07/08- 0 votes
08/09- 0 votes
After playing with Toews
09/10- 4 votes
10/11- 59 votes
11/12- wins Selke
12/13- 164 votes

Hmm.........


Good reply tho. Keep em coming.

This debate is seriously still going on? Is it lost on the OP that the Selke trophy isn't usually awarded to a younger player? Is it lost on the OP that Rod Brind'Armour and Pavel Datsyuk won the Selke in the six seasons leading into 2010-11?

I feel like I'm arguing with an idiot. It is not a slam on Toews to say he isn't as good or better than Crosby. I'd put him in the top-10 in the NHL, maybe even the top-5, and there is no shame in that.
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Old 01-11-2014, 06:18 PM   #53 (permalink)
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And the Fanboi Follies rage on....
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Originally Posted by LGBuffalo View Post
So I didn't want to continue with this thread, but here is some light-reading for you:

From TSN, you know, the leader in NHL reporting:

Crosby tops list again in NHL on TSN Top 50 Players Ranking

I think you'll enjoy #'s 1 and 3 specifically. To respond also to your reply to me about what "hockey circles" I'm referring to, please enjoy the paragraph that states that this list was made by 14 NHL GM's and coaches. Those, are hockey circles.
No, those are a speculated minority of actual NHL positioned opinions. Are their names printed? Of course not. Why is that? Tampering? Come on now. If this was actually polled, yet, the names of those interviewed cant stand behind their decision, well, sorry, seems more media created for ratings then an actual, honest poll to me. I mean, it isn't like Bettman hasn't had a history of pushing Sid down the throats of everybody until the point of ridiculous to try and create some sort of excitement about the NHL in hand picking him as his Lebron and failed miserably in the states by the simple fact nobody cares about the guy outside of Pittsburgh. Who wouldn't expect Sid to be on the Top of the list on a TSN show? Really now....

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Originally Posted by TASS View Post
Yes, I did see what you did there.

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Originally Posted by ejs23 View Post
and right from the start, this is just one example of why there's no legitimate debate here. Crosby haters are blinded by their irrational hate (or maybe it's secret love) of Crosby.
Theres no legitimate debate here only because Crysby fanboi's don't want to hear that their hero just isn't good enough to be considered the best in the game.

Love all the innuendo you seem to type out tho. Wonderful and thoughtful.
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Originally Posted by ejs23 View Post
how exactly has Ovechkin been more dominant?
Well, just by basing it off of regular season totals and awards, Suid has a whole lot of catching up to do.
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Originally Posted by ejs23 View Post
he scores goals... but he doesn't win as much.
Sid doesn't win as much as Toews. Wait.......
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Originally Posted by ejs23 View Post
his overall stats aren't as good.
More career points aren't as good? Oh wait, Sid is always injured. The league should stop every time he hurts himself?
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Originally Posted by ejs23 View Post
he doesn't make those around him that much better (see, Kunitz).
Huh? Kunitz was a good player before he got to Pittsburgh. You know this, correct? He played on Getzlaf's line and produced almost similar numbers with his highest point total being one point higher while playing with Sid then it was while playing with Getz. Trying to short change an NHL player to prop up Sid? (smh)
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Originally Posted by ejs23 View Post
Ovechkin is a great goal scorer.... if that's what determines dominance then we can end the whole debate right here because Crosby has more goals than Toews. so, therefore, Crosby is dominant over Toews by your logic.
Is that how it works now? OV's award vestibule has no bearing on being a dominant player, only his goal scoring prowess? Or is it, again, on account of injuries that Sid should have all the awards OV has accumulated during the same time frame and that, for the sake of Sid, the entire league should stop playing until he deems himself physically fit to play again and mob up every award. Doesn't work that way. During the regular season, OV has been the better, more dominant player. During the playoffs, where it actually matters, Toews has been the better player. Sid? He is a very good player in the regular season and a bit player in the playoffs. History and fact point this out considerably.
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Originally Posted by ejs23 View Post
that's pretty much the definition of subjective. it was given to him by a committee. and we won't even bother discussing the ethical lapses of Olympic committees.
Wait, but the integrity of NHL journalists is any better?
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Originally Posted by ejs23 View Post
here's that irrational hatred (love) again. let's see... he scores goals, he creates opportunities/assist for others, he keeps his team winning, he's been to 2 Finals and won 1 Cup, so far. then there's the scoring titles, mvp, olympic gold, etc. not to mention he represents as the face of the NHL.
Well, Toews has 2 Cups, a Conn Smythe, Olympic goal, Olympic best forward, Olympic AS,scores goals, creates for his team mates, is the best defensive forward in the game, the best leader on the ice bar none, led the league in ES goals last year, etc,etc,etc. And the fact he does it all on the biggest stages exemplifies what a winner truly is.
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Originally Posted by ejs23 View Post
stop acting as if Toews has 5 Cups and Crosby has none. Toews has 1 more, Crosby has plenty of seasons left in him and this is his first healthy one if 4 years.
And Toews has just hit his prime while Sid is in his. Theres plenty of time for Toews, who has won more in two less years then Sid to accomplish even more.
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Originally Posted by ejs23 View Post
and when Chicago doesn't win the Cup this year, and they won't, i'll be sure to remind you of your prediction.
Fine. The pundits said the same thing last year too. That worked out.....
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Originally Posted by ejs23 View Post
spin it however you want... Toews wasn't even on the ice. Crosby took control, made the play and scored the winning goal.
I never said he was. I stated he took the opening FO and was out because the USA's most dangerous player, Kane, was out there during the 4 on 4. Not hard to comprehend that Toews took on all the tough assignments but again, Bergeron learned a whole lot from him during this time.
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Originally Posted by ejs23 View Post
for years to come when Canadians remember the Gold Goal they'll talk about Crosby, mention Iginla but Toews will never come up.
LOL. This must be why Toews Olympic jersey sales were the highest of all the players on the '10 Canada team. That damn Iggy, he kills the momentum.

Wait, you did know that, right?

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Originally Posted by ejs23 View Post
the title of your thread is almost proof enough.... Toews vs Crosby. as i've said before, no debate about who is the best takes place unless it's [insert name] or Crosby. he's the standard which others, including Toews, are judged by.
Well, right now, Crysby needs to measure up to Toews, just saying.

Ill get back to the rest later. Good job guys.
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Old 01-11-2014, 06:37 PM   #54 (permalink)
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They both played hockey in Minnesota. One gold star for each of them.
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Old 01-11-2014, 06:44 PM   #55 (permalink)
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This debate is seriously still going on? Is it lost on the OP that the Selke trophy isn't usually awarded to a younger player? Is it lost on the OP that Rod Brind'Armour and Pavel Datsyuk won the Selke in the six seasons leading into 2010-11?

I feel like I'm arguing with an idiot. It is not a slam on Toews to say he isn't as good or better than Crosby. I'd put him in the top-10 in the NHL, maybe even the top-5, and there is no shame in that.
I don't think there's much to debate there!

Good job guy's LMFAO
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Old 01-11-2014, 07:45 PM   #56 (permalink)
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The funny thing is Crosby isn't even the best player on the team. Can't ne the best in hockey if you're not even the best on your team. He is a one way player that can't take a hit.
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Old 01-11-2014, 07:53 PM   #57 (permalink)
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Old 01-12-2014, 03:39 AM   #58 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Fleurycup09 View Post
I love this guys argument. Ill lay it down like this
Please do. I haven’t seen one shred of evidence that says Sid is a better player then Toews.
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Originally Posted by Fleurycup09 View Post
Crosby created 2 20+ goal scorers. Who you ask? Ryan Malone and Colby Armstrong. Where is Colby and Malone now?
Created how? Like the Wizard in Lord of the Rings created orc’s? Oh wait, you are trying to say he turned plugs into skilled players? Hmm. Malone? Sid assisted on 20 of the 55 goals Malone scored while they played together during the regular season….in three years. Malone went on to produce three more 20 goal season in Tampa Bay. The guy is a consistent 20 goal scorer without Sid, who, again, created 20 goals in three years for Malone. Now Armstrong? He played about three and a half years in Pittsburgh and never produced a 20 goal season. His best season came away from Sid. So, are you trying to say that Sid was the main reason for their development? Or did you just throw two names up there without actually looking thru statistical evidence?
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Originally Posted by Fleurycup09 View Post
Who did Toews make better? Kane? Kane was already better.
Well, during last years playoffs, Toews turned a plug in Bickell into a force. I mean, after Toews melted down, they put Bickell on his line and wouldn’t you know it, he took off.Set him up for the series changing goal against the Bruins, even Now, I understand that even last years playoffs might be a little too long to remember but work with me. Last year when both Hossa and Sharp were out, Q threw Michael Frolik a bone and put him on Toews wing. Frolik went on to have the only three point game in his career if memory serves me. Now, Frolik isn’t a plug, but he sure wasn’t anything special either.
Not to mention the Hawks second defensive pairing of Oduya and Hammer became all world because Q knew he could put them out there with Toews also on the ice and faced the other teams top lines. Now, if you don’t believe me, please check the Corsi stats. Oduya and Hammer were good, but Toews, unlike Sid with those two examples you tried to pass off, made them great.
And no offense, Kane certainly isn’t better then Toews.
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Originally Posted by Fleurycup09 View Post
How many MVP's does Toews have?
How many Conn Smythes does Sid have?
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Originally Posted by Fleurycup09 View Post
How many Scoring titles does Toews have?
How many Selke awards does Sid have?
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Originally Posted by Fleurycup09 View Post
How many Richard Trophys does Toews have?
How many Olympic Best Forwards does Sid have?
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Originally Posted by Fleurycup09 View Post
How many times has Toews matched Crosbys scoring even when Sid was injured for half seasons.
How many times has Sid taken over games defensively or scored the game winning goal during the playoffs when it actually matters most? Toews has more game winning goals in the playoffs then Sid and Sid has played seven more games!! An entire series more experience then Toews.
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Originally Posted by Fleurycup09 View Post
Who were Kunitz and Dupris before Crosby?
Kunitz was a 20 goal scorer playing with Gretzlaf. Dupuis was also a 20 goal scorer before Crosby and during Dupuis two 20 goals season while on Pittsburgh, totally 45 goals, Sid had a hand in 15 of them. Kunitz assisted on 11. Or is this still Sid and only Sid?
Seriously, the Crysby fanbois need to look up stats instead of just saying “Sid is better”. Theres so much the Sid fans fail to comprehend outside of the game logs for that day. SMH, indeed.
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Originally Posted by Fleurycup09 View Post
Toews is a great talent but simple fact is if you put Toews on Pittsburgh the Pens don't win in 2009.
Debatable but purely speculation since there is no such things as time machines. There isn’t a shred of reality in comment only because its like playing make believe.
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Originally Posted by Fleurycup09 View Post
If you put Crosby on Chicago your looking at a possible Dynasty.
You are looking at a dynasty right now in Chicago because of Toews.
Like, lol really…..
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Originally Posted by Fleurycup09 View Post
Also I look at Crosbys whinning as this. If you know your gonna get the call 60% of the time and put your high powered offense on the power play and win more games then I ask you why not? If Toews was as good as Crosby maybe he would use his whinning abilities to grab some more calls.
Well, Toews is a mans man, I guess. That might make it a bit constricting to have to stoop down to those types of levels. He is fine. He wins Cups without them.
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Originally Posted by Fleurycup09 View Post
Until you can answer those questions with Toews having more of those things then Sid you lose.
Well I just did. Does that mean I win?
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Originally Posted by Fleurycup09 View Post
Note to OP you don't beat the Flyers if KANE doesn't score the OT winner. NOT TOEWS
And lucky for Kane, he had Toews playing on another level, winning the Conn Smythe so Kane can make the Flyers crumble so bad that they blew up the entire team afterwards.

Good job guys. Ill respond to the other messages later.
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Old 01-12-2014, 11:40 AM   #59 (permalink)
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This thread is giving me a headache. There is nothing more annoying than mile-long posts where someone picks apart every sentence in another post and repeats the same "arguments" over and over.

There is no hard evidence of any player being better than the other. It cannot be done. It cannot be broken down into some kind of equation that will spit out a definitive and unquestionable best player. And the more Cups argument that keeps coming up? Give me a break. Having one more Cup than a guy doesn't mean anything. Henri Richard must be twice as good as Gretzky if that's the case. You have to watch them out there, see how they read the play, the things they can do with the puck, how their teammates respond to them and elevate their game, then form your own OPINION and be done with it.

I love Toews and I think he's one of the best leaders in the game, but overall Crosby is the best player in the world. Want hard evidence? I can't give it to you because you can't quantify the skill or value of a player, especially in a team sport where the efforts of an entire team decide outcomes of games and championships.

And don't bother dissecting my post, I've formed my own opinion and I'm capable of walking away from a thread without feeling the need to continue slamming it down someone else's throat
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Old 01-12-2014, 02:52 PM   #60 (permalink)
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At Shuttuck St Marys Crosby played 57 with 162 points Toews while there played 64 games with 110 points. That's about how much your BS arguments mean,

Also Toews won his 2 cups after he played with Sid on team Canada in the Olympics so Sids the reason Toews was able to play so godly like in the Playoffs, He learned from the best. Also since Sid made Toews so much more of a complete player your argument of how Bergeron only won the Selke by playing wit Toews is wrong. Crosby Helped Toews who Helped Bergeron so Crosby is why Bergeron won.

If Toews didn't play with Crosby in in the Olympics then he would never have had any of the success he has now because Crosby taught him everything. I mean according to your logics it makes perfect sense.
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Old 01-12-2014, 03:33 PM   #61 (permalink)
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By his logic David Freese is better then Miguel Cabrera
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Old 01-13-2014, 12:13 AM   #62 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by 223 View Post
Chicago couldn't get Crosby for Toews and Saad. Stop.
Chicago wouldn’t trade their franchise player and a good young player on his ELC contract for Sid. Seriously, and realistically, Sid’s cap hit makes such a trade absurd to even comprehend. Or are we still in this mystical fantasy land where things such as the cap hit doesn’t matter? Is this NHL2K, no salary cap mode we are talking about? Because in reality its not even an option, nor would Stan Bowman even consider trading away the best two way player in the game for an injury prone offensive star who has a history of being muted like a stereo speaker the second somebody applies a little pressure to his psyche (Chara). The same Chara who Toews embarrassed on more than one occasion during the Cup finals.
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Team need you say? OK, I'll play along. They wouldn't give up Malkin for anything less than Toews and that's simply swapping centers.
Why would the Hawks consider it? Malkin is another one of those “great players when healthy” types and the loss of games played while he is nursed back to health would make the Hawks as a team a bit more pedestrian instead of the best team in the NHL.
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Malkin carried Pittsburgh by himself when Crosby was hurt. Toews has never done that nor could he.
LOL whut? Did you watch the finals last year? The 2010 Olympics? Or the first Cup win where Toews won the Smythe? Or is this yet even more revisionist history for the Crosboi nation to try and pass off the same way Vince McMahon said Hogan never faced Andre before Wrestlemania 3?
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He doesn't score enough. You can go on about the Gold Medal all you want. Even throw in the two Cups if you'd like but Malkin has a Conn Smythe himself. You can even argue Toews is better defensively which he is however....
Score enough how? As in game winning goals or assisting on GWG’s? Please, go look up the stats and see just how much Toews scores and how much he impacts actually winning games instead of feasting on mediocre teams in his division and padding his stats in blow outs.When did scoring when it matters and stopping the opposing teams best players from scoring suddenly become less of a premium then padding stats against weak teams? El oh El, you Sid fans are hilarious sometimes when winning is the most important thing. If it wasn’t Ovie would be deemed a hockey god by now.
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He wouldn't have won the Selke if Datysuk didn't have concussion issues that year. You can argue otherwise until you're blue in the face. Considering they were in the same division last year you would have seen this even if you won't acknowledge it. Toews would not have won it. It's that simple.
So, in some make believe faux reality Dats wins awards but in reality Toews won it? I don’t get how “woulda, coulda, shoulda” suddenly becomes some sort of excuse, or how injuries, that happen all the time in contact sport, btw, are held against the actual players who accomplished certain pleateaus only when it matters to Sidney Crosby, or in this case Datsyuk. Save the spiel. I live in reality and what has exactly happened in the real world. This batch of excuses is just that, excuses. When Sid learns to take care of himself better and keep himself on the ice for an entire year and playoffs then maybe, just maybe, he can start to climb Mt. Toews and knock him off. Until then, it’s a long hard climb to trying to even come close to getting into a Cup final, of which Toews is 2 for 2 in winning in his professional career.
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Tampa wouldn't give up the best goal scorer in the league for him.
When did OV get traded to Tampa?
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Arguing over a need vs strength and why it would be practical isn't the argument or point I'm trying to make. Whether Chicago needs another goal scorer or not was not the point of my statement. Simply pointing out that if Toews is the player you feel he is then tell me which elite player in the league they could get for him in a one for one deal? I've just given you two that wouldn't get it done.
Sorry, I don’t play that type of game. I deal in fact, not fantasy. I don’t buy into any of the rhetoric certain hockey fans like to use to make their favorites seem better than they actually are. I don’t buy the whole, better team, better line mate jibberish, you work with what you have. Sid has Malkin, supposedly the second best player in the world and still, theres only one Cup between them. If Toews wasn’t better, then how come he has two Cups and a Smythe? A better team? Both teams tanked for high draft picks and both teams put decent talent around their star players. Injuries? Both teams have sustained injuries but only one didn’t use them as a crutch. Which one was that? The one who hung another banner from the rafters in the first game of the season.
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You can't name me one player in the NHL Pittsburgh would trade Crosby one for one.
Pittsburgh wouldn’t trade Crosby period. Why would they?
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If you want to kick it back to "well that's not a need" then be my guest. If Toews is the best thing on skates then there's no GM in the league who wouldn't trade whatever they had to get him.
A severe over payment? You would have to offer more than any GM worth his salt would give up to make Bowman not hang up the phone laughing.
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if this is your argument, then it's an intellectually dishonest one. you're ignoring the fact that Crosby lost the better part of 4 seasons to injuries. including missing 20+ games while injured the year they lost in the finals to Detroit.
So what you are trying to say is the NHL needs to shut down right on the spot the second Sid gets hurt? When hasn’t a team suffered injuries? Or is Sid a special case or something? When the hockey writers write their award ballots should there be some sort of big block letters on the top “Crysby was injured X amount of games”? Would that make the Sid apologists feel better? What truly is dishonest is this façade that Sidney Crosby is entitled to a title he has proven so far in his career he hasn’t earned by no showing the playoffs or putting himself in harms way and watching from the press box. Nobody hasn’t said he wasn’t a great player, nor has anybody said he doesn’t score a lot of points and feast on secondary assists, he does. What has been plainly pointed out by me, is that he is a bit player on as stacked a team as your Champions but fails when the stress of the pressure gets too thick.
Toews never has. Never.
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now that he's healthy, let's see how it works out.
Fair enough, but history suggests sooner or later something will happen and then the cycle of the injury excuse will start to spin once again for Sidney Nation. Part of me thinks they cant wait for it, either, so that one ace is constantly up their sleeve.
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has Toews taken his team on a 15 game win streak?
Even better, a NHL record 24 game unbeaten streak.
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has he led a roster full of AHL'ers to the most wins so far this season?
Now you are trying too hard. Its his job as captain to rally the team he was placed the leader of. There is as much “AHL” talent on the Pens as there is on every other team, so again, save this fantasy conjecture when ijuries happen to every team and aren’t just a problem for the Pens. Blame Shero instead of propping up Sid.
Ill get to the other replys later. Good job guys.
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Old 01-13-2014, 02:17 AM   #63 (permalink)
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Chicago wouldn’t trade their franchise player
You're right. Kane's not going anywhere.

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Please, go look up the stats and see just how much Toews scores
I have. He's 3rd in points, tied for 3rd in goals...on his own team. He's 10th in scoring in the NHL, a full 25 points behind Crosby.

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When did scoring when it matters and stopping the opposing teams best players from scoring suddenly become less of a premium then padding stats against weak teams?
2013-14 apparently. Toews is tied for 9th in +/- behind two teammates and Jaden Schwartz who evidently is exempt in your padding stats in a weak division argument.

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I live in reality and what has exactly happened in the real world.
Put the beer down.

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This batch of excuses is just that, excuses.
Yes and you're running out of them.

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Originally Posted by thetheham View Post
If Toews wasn’t better, then how come he has two Cups and a Smythe?
Not sure. Ask Kane. They both have the same trophies on the shelf.

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Originally Posted by thetheham View Post
Pittsburgh wouldn’t trade Crosby period. Why would they?
Because there's no other player in the league better than him.

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So what you are trying to say is the NHL needs to shut down right on the spot the second Sid gets hurt?
Not really. Crosby played 41 games in 2010-11 before injured. He had 66 points. Toews played 80 and ended up with 76. Ironically the year after Toews put all of Canada in the back of his plane and flew them around the globe on a victory tour.

No need to shut the league down. Just have Sid play half a season.

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The 2010 Olympics? Or the first Cup win where Toews won the Smythe? Or is this yet even more revisionist history for the Crosboi nation to try and pass off
Ironic coming from you
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Old 01-13-2014, 04:06 AM   #64 (permalink)
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Stop feeding the troll my god this is a big run around joke
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Old 01-13-2014, 02:17 PM   #65 (permalink)
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So what you are trying to say is the NHL needs to shut down right on the spot the second Sid gets hurt? When hasn’t a team suffered injuries? Or is Sid a special case or something?
yes, he is indeed a special case. this debate isn't about whether or not the Pens are the best, most talented, most stacked team in the league... in which case an injury to one player shouldn't matter much. it's about Crosby being the best player.... and when your team's best player (who just happens to consistently lead the league in scoring) misses significant amounts of times with serious injuries, it's worth noting.

it's not some sort of far-fetched excuse... it's just the simple reality.


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Even better, a NHL record 24 game unbeaten streak.
come on now... "unbeaten" streak? the fact is they were beaten 3 times during those 24 games. it was a point streak, not a winning streak. the Pens, however, had an actual winning streak of 15 games... second most ever behind another Pens team.

and then, of course, Crosby got his jaw shattered... things happen but no reason to ignore the obvious.

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Now you are trying too hard. Its his job as captain to rally the team he was placed the leader of. There is as much “AHL” talent on the Pens as there is on every other team, so again, save this fantasy conjecture when ijuries happen to every team and aren’t just a problem for the Pens. Blame Shero instead of propping up Sid.
again, you're ignoring reality. i forget the actual number at this point but it must be around 250 man-games that the Pens have lost this season to injuries so far... most of any team in the league, probably by a bunch. at one point our top 4 or 5 defensemen were out at the same time... we've lost Dupuis, part of the highest scoring line in hockey... Malkin, Neal, Letang, etc.

now remember, this isn't some excuse for them not playing well... just the opposite. it points to Crosby's leadership and talent. they kept winning through all that.

one more thing.... since when is "best olympic forward" such a coveted award? i've never seen or heard anyone point to it as proof of anything until you. yes, a committee decided to give Toews that award... good for him. but 2 words - Golden Goal.

finally... the Pens just had a 3 game Canadian road trip. i don't know that i've ever seen so many fans holding signs and wearing jerseys for an opposing player. and of course, Crosby takes the time to go out and meet them and sign autographs. now to be fair, I haven't watched when the Blackhawks hit those cities but i'm skeptical that Toews gets the same welcome. but maybe he does.

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Old 01-14-2014, 09:16 AM   #66 (permalink)
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The funny thing is Crosby isn't even the best player on the team. Can't ne the best in hockey if you're not even the best on your team. He is a one way player that can't take a hit.
Pretty sure you're the ONLY person who thinks that. Crosby is easily the best player in the game today and it's not even close......
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Old 01-19-2014, 04:02 PM   #67 (permalink)
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Hopefully Hockey Canada ended this "debate" with their decision today. Or let me guess, it was a conspiracy, right?
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Old 01-19-2014, 04:31 PM   #68 (permalink)
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Hopefully Hockey Canada ended this "debate" with their decision today. Or let me guess, it was a conspiracy, right?
By naming Sid captain? Hardly. He is Canada's most marketable player and the second most marketable player in the NHL. I don't think anybody thought he wasn't going to be anointed the captain.

Better player? Its still Toews.

Good reply tho.
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Old 01-19-2014, 05:05 PM   #69 (permalink)
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By naming Sid captain? Hardly. He is Canada's most marketable player and the second most marketable player in the NHL. I don't think anybody thought he wasn't going to be anointed the captain.

Better player? Its still Toews.

Good reply tho.
Quick question: if Sidney Crosby put up 500 points in a season, the Penguins won every single game, swept through the playoffs and won the Stanley Cup, would you deem Sidney Crosby to be the best player on the planet? Just asking.
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Old 01-19-2014, 06:05 PM   #70 (permalink)
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Quick question: if Sidney Crosby put up 500 points in a season, the Penguins won every single game, swept through the playoffs and won the Stanley Cup, would you deem Sidney Crosby to be the best player on the planet? Just asking.
Now you are being foolish. I have never said Sid wasn't a great player. He is, and the best PP player in the game. But I value a winner a whole lot more then scoring goals or picking up token secondary assists, sadly. Toews is a much, much better winner and it isn't even close by career accomplishments;

Toews

U17 World Hockey Champion = Gold
2006 World Junior Champion = Gold
2007 World Junior Champion = Gold
2007 World Championships = Gold
2008 World Championships = Silver
2010 Olympic Champion = Gold
2010 Stanley Cup Champion
2013 Stanley Cup Champion

He is also the youngest member of the triple gold club.

Sid

2004 World Junior = Silver
2005 World Junior = Gold
2008 Stanley Cup Champion
2010 Olympic = Gold

Hmm. Now don't get me wrong, Sid's accomplishments are impressive, but are dwarfed by Toews. Now, you can go with the whole team's win Cups drivel, but somebody has to be the leader and be the "man", so to speak. In crunch time, Toews has no peer in the NHL, while Sid is just a bit player. Did I mention Toews took all the tough assignments last Olympics and broke the spirit of OV when he played against him? Its ok. I will be rooting for the USA considering that is my country and have no problems with Canada choosing Sid as Captain.

If it was Toews, I might have been worried for USA's chances.

Good job.
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Old 01-19-2014, 06:20 PM   #71 (permalink)
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So the years when the Pens were still in the playoffs when Toews was playing in the World Championships etc make him more valuable?

Your arguing for the sake of arguing
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Old 01-19-2014, 07:13 PM   #72 (permalink)
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So the years when the Pens were still in the playoffs when Toews was playing in the World Championships etc make him more valuable?
Sid has a stellar one game playoff win to his credit before Toews entered the league. Toews is a much valuable player because of his proven history of being a winner at ever level of competition he has played at. To try and find fault in Toews accomplishments to prop is Sid is hilarious at best considering, you know, with both at the same level now Toews has twice as many Cups as Sid does.

Sid also didn't win his Cup without Malkin leading the way for him, while the Hawks didn't win Cups until Toews lead the way.


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Your arguing for the sake of arguing
I, sadly, have been debating and backing up my opinion with factual statistics. Sid fanboi's take it personally when somebody doesn't huff his farts. Its ok, I understand completely. Sid is a great PP player who so far this year has accumulated almost a third of his points on the PP. Nobody has never said he wasn't a great scorer or feasted in the more mediocre conference. I value winning Stanley Cups a whole lot more then a scoring title or getting secondary assists. That's just me. I would be more then happy if the Blackhawks win the next three Cups, which they just might, btw, and Sid wins the Art Ross and Hart trophy in the same time span. It would solidify both players fan bases to their opinions but this time in NHL history would belong to Toews as the consummate winner of his generation....and best player.


Good reply. I love it.
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Old 01-19-2014, 08:03 PM   #73 (permalink)
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Dude why don't you run for political office your real good at spinning the argument the way you want to benefit you

Your a tool as exemplified by your assinying avatar your just here to start crap and be an #@#@#@#@#@#@
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Old 01-19-2014, 08:17 PM   #74 (permalink)
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I do not come over the the Hockey forum often but noticed the thread title and said to myself. "Who the hell is debating that. Toews is not even top 5"
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Old 01-19-2014, 09:01 PM   #75 (permalink)
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Toews

U17 World Hockey Champion = Gold
2006 World Junior Champion = Gold CROSBY WAS IN THE NHL
2007 World Junior Champion = Gold CROSBY WAS IN THE NHL
2007 World Championships = Gold CROSBY WAS IN THE NHL
2008 World Championships = Silver CROSBY WAS IN THE NHL
2010 Olympic Champion = Gold CROSBY SCORED THE GAME WINNER TO GIVE THAT TO HIM
2010 Stanley Cup Champion KANE SCORED GAME WINNER TO GIVE THAT TO HIM.
2013 Stanley Cup Champion



Sid

2004 World Junior = Silver HOW OLD WAS SID 16?
2005 World Junior = Gold
2008 Stanley Cup Champion IT WAS 08-09 NOT 08 THAT WAS DETROIT
2010 Olympic = Gold SCORED GOLDEN GOAL ENOUGH SAID

QUOTE]

While Toews was playing against guys from the local pick up leagues Sid was playing alongside Mario against MEN who wanted nothing more then to bash his head in (see Hatcher Pronger and many more). Still managed to put up 102 points along side an OLD Recchi, Palffy and Leclair.

Toews was passed up by 2 teams in the draft obviously they saw more talent elsewhere at the time. Sid on the other hand was waiting to be drafted when he was 13 y/o.

Sid always played levels above his own age. Even now NHLers not Toews Fanbois vote Crosby as the #1 player. His whole career Sid has made every guy on his line better Armstrong, Christiensen, Malone, Dupper, Kunitz ect. Toews has never made a player better.

Cups tell no tale. The Hawks system is a winning system. You can take a handful of the NHL upper talent and win with that system but Penguins Run through Crosby. He is hands down the most Amazing talent to watch. His non goals make top 10 lists. Toews cant be #1 in the NHL when he wouldn't be #1 or even two on 3 of the 30 NHL Teams. Toews is a GREAT player and deserving of every award and Championship he has won and he plays the game the right way BUT he himself will tell you he isn't better then Sid.
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