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-   -   Is Jordan Staal Passing Malkin? (http://www.blowoutcards.com/forums/hockey/677-jordan-staal-passing-malkin.html)

frozenntimesports 08-18-2007 08:05 AM

Is Jordan Staal Passing Malkin?
 
Am I the only who's noticed Jordan Staal's higher end rookie cards like the Cup are ending higher than Malkin's?

It seems odd, but maybe the anti-European thing is kicking in.

allhockey 08-18-2007 08:34 AM

[QUOTE=KaraandMelliesDaddy;3451]Am I the only who's noticed Jordan Staal's higher end rookie cards like the Cup are ending higher than Malkin's?

It seems odd, but maybe the anti-European thing is kicking in.[/QUOTE]

astute hockey guys have notice Staal is the better two player (I saw the Pens live here in DC and even my wife noticed Staal) his age helps and the pedigree- I just luv guys who have the skill to score shorties......

mdb92951 08-18-2007 11:31 AM

Hopefully he'll be able to play this year. He may have trouble getting a work Visa because of the arrest for underage drinking.

mcq91 08-18-2007 01:57 PM

guess that means I should stock up on his other rookies (SPA, SPX...) since they are still selling for less than Malkins? I still think Malkin is a stud and last year was an "adjustment" year to the NHL whereas Staal has been playing "North American-style" hockey his entire life. it was Malkin that won the Calder remember, NOT Staal.

allhockey 08-18-2007 03:04 PM

[QUOTE=mcq91;3489]guess that means I should stock up on his other rookies (SPA, SPX...) since they are still selling for less than Malkins? I still think Malkin is a stud and last year was an "adjustment" year to the NHL whereas Staal has been playing "North American-style" hockey his entire life. it was Malkin that won the Calder remember, NOT Staal.[/QUOTE]

I think both players are good values right now but especially Staal- if you can pick up nice cards of either player now in late Aug or especially next month when most folks attention turns to football that would benefit you. I will be looking to stock up my showcases with both guys. The knock on Malkin is he takes stretches of games off and seems (and plays) disinterested at times. I do like Malkin's physical nature of play; he may have more of a mean streak that his "local" countryman, Ovechkin. As both a fan of game and a collector you gotta like that.........

Rabbit 08-18-2007 03:53 PM

Staal selling for more than Malkin is just more of the rampant Canadan nationalism and xenophobia. Staal is a good player, but he's not going to be that much more than he is now. If the "big three" in Pittsburgh remain with the team long-term, Staal is going to be the 3rd line center. Malkin, meanwhile, has the potential to approach, if not eclipse, Crosby as far as points scored. The difference in talent between Malkin and Staal is significant.

Staal's going to top out around 75-80pts. He just doesn't have the hands to do anything more than that. Malkin has 130+pt potential.

Canadans will always spend more on players from Canadia than they will Russians. And given that they are such a large portion of the hockey card market, they are going to skew sales prices in Staal's favor. But Malkin is clearly the better player and clearly has far, far more potential.

Long-term investment in Staal is foolish. Long-term investment in Malkin is savvy.

andrew13 08-18-2007 04:37 PM

i've said all along staal is better. the kid is amazing on d, can score shorties and breakaways with the best of them, and makes a lot of unbelievable plays. this year should be fun to see, with him catching up to the game's speed, he should have a lot more assists and i'd imagine that he will be a top 2 line player for the pens.

malkin is great, but has euroitus. he's lazy. jagr is also great, but lazy. malkin reminds me to much of jagr to root for him honestly. it still burns what jagr did years ago here.

Rabbit 08-18-2007 05:52 PM

[QUOTE=andrew13;3512]i've said all along staal is better.[/QUOTE]

Then you've been wrong all along.

[QUOTE=andrew13;3512] the kid is amazing on d,[/QUOTE]

He's solid on D.

[QUOTE=andrew13;3512]
can score shorties
[/QUOTE]

...assuming the Pens don't acquire 3rd and 4th liners to play on the PK.

If he remains on the PK, his overall game is going to suffer (assuming you think he's a 1st or 2nd line player), because he's going to be logging too many minutes on the PK, especially if Crysby is going to continue to whine and cry - there will be a lot more penalties called against the Pens because of that.

[QUOTE=andrew13;3512]
and breakaways with the best of them,
[/QUOTE]

He's nowhere near as good on the breakaway as Malkin is.

[QUOTE=andrew13;3512]
and makes a lot of unbelievable plays.
[/QUOTE]

No he doesn't. Malkin is a heck of a lot more of a highlight film than Staal is. Staal works hard and scores, he's not a highlight reel.

[QUOTE=andrew13;3512]

this year should be fun to see, with him catching up to the game's speed, he should have a lot more assists and i'd imagine that he will be a top 2 line player for the pens.
[/QUOTE]

He's going to have to move to wing if he wants to play on the top two lines.

[QUOTE=andrew13;3512]
malkin is great, but has euroitus.
[/QUOTE]

Wow, that's a nice, bigoted remark to make.

[QUOTE=andrew13;3512]

he's lazy. jagr is also great, but lazy. malkin reminds me to much of jagr to root for him honestly. it still burns what jagr did years ago here.[/QUOTE]

So you judge Malkin based on some whacked out comparison with Jagr, not for what Malkin actually is as a player. I see.

Edit - Fixed a typo.

kobemagee29 08-18-2007 06:22 PM

Nice job rabbitt, you really put some serious thought into that reply, but can't agree on to many of your points at all. Easy to see why you were banned from the other site

frozenntimesports 08-18-2007 06:36 PM

[QUOTE=andrew13;3512]malkin is great, but has euroitus. he's lazy. [/QUOTE]

Way to pi$$ off a good portion of the population, including me.

Why don't we drop you in the middle of Russia, not knowing the language or culture, and ask you to play an important role on a Russian team and see how you do.

I was pointing out a trend in card prices. I think Malkin may wind up being better than Ovechkin, but he will never be as flashy (I don't think).

Is Spezza better than Datsyuk? Probably not, but Spezza sells better, Spezza is Canadian, Datysuk Russian. Coincidence? I doubt it.

I see Staal developing into a 100-110 point player who will be a goal scorer, which may be why his cards are heating up, but I see Malkin as an all-world talent who rank among the best who ever played.

Keep your anti-European venom to yourself, or better yet, spew in on the other board where the children run the place... [B]there is no place for it here[/B]

... and what exactly did Jagr do to Pittsburgh to upset you anyway?

95-96 62-87, 149
96-97 47-48, 95
97-98 35-67, 102
98-99 44-83, 127
99-00 42-54, 96
00-01 52-69, 121

The only years he had less than 100 points were the seasons he played 63 games due to injury. I wish anyone on the Islanders could be that lazy.

Rabbit 08-18-2007 07:36 PM

[QUOTE=kobemagee29;3521]Nice job rabbitt, you really put some serious thought into that reply, but can't agree on to many of your points at all. [/QUOTE]

Well, it's not really a matter of agreement or disagreement. What I said is correct. There's a reason why teams saw fit to employ me as a talent evaluator, and later focused my education on a statistical analysis of NHL prospects.

And while I like Andrew13, he's a fan. Nothing more. That much is immediately obvious.

[QUOTE=kobemagee29;3521]
Easy to see why you were banned from the other site[/QUOTE]

You have no idea why I was banned from Beckett.

A little hint for you...the guy who banned me e-mailed me to tell me that he didn't agree that I deserved to be banned, and it was the straw that broke the camel's back - he quit as moderator that day.

I was banned because I argue and I don't back down when some yahoo makes a ridiculous argument. At Beckett, if everyone else holds one position and you hold another, it doesn't matter who is right, the only thing that matters is which opinion is more popular.

I see things as they are. Others see them as they want them to be. That's it, in a nutshell. Thanks for your concern.

kobemagee29 08-18-2007 07:47 PM

And yes silly rabbit,

Rabbit 08-18-2007 08:00 PM

[quote=kobemagee29;3534]*edited*.[/quote]

Classy.

andrew13 08-18-2007 09:22 PM

read hockeyfights, the first board i posted on, and you'll find 10,000 people who agree with everything i just said. i don't hate euros as much as those guys, but i think that most tend to be lazy and crybabies. staal is the better player i think. short of malkin putting up 150 pts and staal having an armstrong season, it's going to take a lot to change that.

malkin is very lazy on d, and there would be games where he would just be skating around in lala land and it cost the team several times. it was very rare to catch staal out of place anywhere. malkin may score more goals, but he's not the better player. gonchar may score more goals than eaton, but with a game on the line i'd rather see eaton out there. same way, i'd rather see staal out there than malkin. also, i don't think malkin is as much of a team player as sid and jordan... i think the next offseason will determine that though. if he demands max salary, then good riddance to him. if he asks for a reduced rate to win some cups, then that will change my opinion. i just don't see it happening.

frozenntimesports 08-18-2007 10:23 PM

[QUOTE=andrew13;3564]malkin is very lazy on d, and there would be games where he would just be skating around in lala land and it cost the team several times. [/QUOTE]

They play a different defensive system in Europe, some would say a better and more crisp version, but unless you've seen both you can't have an opinion on it.

Give it a year and he'll adapt to the U.S. system, just like Ovechkin started to in the waning days of last season and Kovalchuk did a few years ago.

You can have him for Trent Hunter or any of our bums any day.

Oh and for the record, the guys on hockeyfights.com are on the level with the other board. Why is it OK to rip on Francophones and Euros but if you made the same comments about another race it isn't. I'm really fed up with it.

And you still haven't explained your problem with Jagr, but when he was at his best you were still looking for your binky and plugging in your nite-lite.

Rabbit 08-18-2007 10:59 PM

[quote=andrew13;3564]read hockeyfights, the first board i posted on, and you'll find 10,000 people who agree with everything i just said.
[/quote]

1. The plural of "opinion" is not "fact."

2. That's a self-selecting sample. OF FREAKING COURSE a bunch of Don Cherry slapdicks posting on a hockey fighting board are going to be bigoted, anti-Euro windbags. That's hardly representative of the opinion of the hockey world as a whole.

[quote=andrew13;3564] *edited*[/quote]

I changed two words from your quote above. Do you get it now? Do you understand why it's not okay for you to ignorantly generalize an entire ethnicity like that? That's just mindless bigotry. If you're cool with that, then fine. But I'm sure not, and it doesn't seem like others here are either.

[quote=andrew13;3564]
staal is the better player i think.
[/quote]

Then, again, you think wrong.

[quote=andrew13;3564]
short of malkin putting up 150 pts and staal having an armstrong season, it's going to take a lot to change that. [/quote]

Your mind, you mean. You aren't going to see Malkin as being better than A FRICKING THIRD LINE CENTER on your favorite team until he puts up a point total that ONLY FIVE FRICKING PLAYERS IN THE HISTORY OF HOCKEY have put up, and a total that NOBODY HAS EVEN APPROACHED IN THE LAST TEN YEARS.

The funny thing is that you don't even understand how patently absurd your expectations are.

Tim 08-18-2007 11:28 PM

So "Rabbit," why didn't you just come back on here as who you were last time -- wharry? Just curious.

BAMBAM 08-19-2007 12:05 AM

Stacy, Tim , Andy etc. Don't waste your time feeding into this "person". He does nothing but troll around on here just looking for someone to argue with from the comforts of his room. The whole quoting/disecting of other people's opinions is old and tired and is only done to instigate a pissing match. [B]Its always everyone else who is picking on him yet he gets booted from every board he joins.[/B]. Already been booted once from here and I'm sure he will get it again eventually. You wouldn't think a middle aged person would act like such an instigating child.
Whats really sad is I remember he posted on someones thread before that some weirdo he was arguing with started harassing his wife over the phone at her work. If that is a [B]true[/B] story (tough to believe much of what he says), its pretty sad because it seems he didn't learn anything from that incident. Its one thing to run your mouth and have people pissed at you, its another when your family gets dragged into something because of your big mouth.

BAMBAM 08-19-2007 01:07 AM

[QUOTE=KaraandMelliesDaddy;3451]Am I the only who's noticed Jordan Staal's higher end rookie cards like the Cup are ending higher than Malkin's?

It seems odd, but maybe the anti-European thing is kicking in.[/QUOTE]


I agree to a certain extent that collectors in Canada AND the US treat Euro players differently than Canadian and American players with their spending habits. I don't think its an anti-European thing as a whole with hockey collectors. It seems like people want their stuff early but they can't sustain collectors attention over time. Only Russian player I can think of that held his popularity with collectors for a long time during his career was Pavel Bure. Kovie still has a following but his stuff isn't at the level it once was or should be IMO. Ovie is now selling for about 1/2 of what Sid is and even 1/3 in some cases with newer releases across the board.

One thing that I think gets overlooked is the fact that there are not many (any ?) Russians buying hockey cards of their hometown heros on fleabay. I've shipped cards to Sweden, Germany, Finland etc. in the past but never to Russia. That obviously plays a part in the fact that they generally sell for lower money across the board than players from other countries. A guy like Lidstrom has Wings fans AND Swedes bidding on his stuff where as Kovie has Thrashers fans bidding on his stuff.

I think Malkin will sell for excellent money again once the season starts and he starts putting pucks in the net. The Pens will get a ton of national games and will probably be very successful for quite awhile. All it takes is a few highlite reel goals on ESPN (ala the Devs game last year) to get the Beckett nation to figure out Malkin is pretty good and worth buying. I'm curious to see how a great talent like Radulov will sell on a team like Nashville that may not get alot of national attention. If the NHL ever gets the marketing aspect right I think Ovie, Malkin and Kovie will get the attention they deserve with collectors if they put up the numbers they are capable of piling up.

While I think its pretty obvious that Staal was the better 2 way player last year, I think Malkin is an offensive wizard who will only get better over time. Big Daddy is right about him having to adapt because it is a different game over here. I do see what Andy is saying, although I don't think its as drastic as he puts it. Malkin did play in some games that I watched where he just disappeared and I remember posting on here after a few of them. I think everyone is entitled to an off game or a streatch where their confidence is down but someone of his talent level shouldn't disappear for an entire game.
I think he'll adapt now that he has a year under his belt. Guys like Roberts will be all over his ass if they see him giving less than 100% effort in a game.

Rabbit 08-19-2007 01:55 AM

[QUOTE=Tim;3576]So "Rabbit," why didn't you just come back on here as who you were last time -- wharry? Just curious.[/QUOTE]

What difference does it make what my handle is? It was never a secret who I am here or anywhere else.

Rabbit 08-19-2007 02:18 AM

[QUOTE=BAMBAM;3579]Stacy, Tim , Andy etc. Don't waste your time feeding into this "person". [/QUOTE]

I see. So if you don't have the same opinion as someone else, you're a "troll" and not a person? Brilliant.

[QUOTE=BAMBAM;3579] He does nothing but troll around on here
[/QUOTE]

Really? *I* am the one trolling?

You're the one who picks fights with me again and again and again. You try to tell me when and where I can and can't post, and then you do things like you just did here, where you try and rally people to get behind your pathetic little crusade to get people not to like me.

Grow the hell up already.

[QUOTE=BAMBAM;3579]
just looking for someone to argue with from the comforts of his room.
[/QUOTE]

Pot, meet kettle.

[QUOTE=BAMBAM;3579]

The whole quoting/disecting of other people's opinions is old and tired and is only done to instigate a pissing match. [/QUOTE]

If you don't want me to dissect your quotes, then don't make stupid remarks in the first place. NOBODY here is the least bit shy about dissecting my quotes, and you don't see me (or anyone else) whining about it.

Hell, Andrew13 didn't even whine about it, and it was HIS quotes that I dissected. You're the only one whining.

Again, grow the hell up already.

[QUOTE=BAMBAM;3579]
[B]Its always everyone else who is picking on him yet he gets booted from every board he joins.[/B].
[/QUOTE]

Did I say people were picking on me? I couldn't care less if they do.

[QUOTE=BAMBAM;3579]
Already been booted once from here[/QUOTE]

And reinstated immediately. Chris thought I was trolling. He realized I wasn't and reinstated me immediately.

It's not an issue to him, it's not an issue to me, and since it's none of your business, it sure shouldn't be an issue to you.

[QUOTE=BAMBAM;3579]
and I'm sure he will get it again eventually. [/QUOTE]

Why would I get suspended? I don't insult people personally. I attack arguments. You attack people. You're a bully. Nothing more.

[QUOTE=BAMBAM;3579]
You wouldn't think a middle aged person would act like such an instigating child.
[/QUOTE]

Who said I am middle-aged?

[QUOTE=BAMBAM;3579]
Whats really sad is I remember he posted on someones thread before that some weirdo he was arguing with started harassing his wife over the phone at her work.
[/QUOTE]

Nope. Some weirdo on eBay said he was going to start calling me at all hours of the night and was going to harrass my wife at work. He's been removed from eBay, and the FBI is currently investigating him.

[QUOTE=BAMBAM;3579]
If that is a [B]true[/B] story (tough to believe much of what he says),
[/QUOTE]

Why would I lie?

[QUOTE=BAMBAM;3579]

its pretty sad because it seems he didn't learn anything from that incident.
[/QUOTE]

I learned a lot from that incident. I learned how to escalate an eBay investigation in a hurry. I learned what it takes to get someone thrown off of eBay. I learned a lot about the feedback system. And I learned a lot about lunatics.

[QUOTE=BAMBAM;3579]
Its one thing to run your mouth and have people pissed at you, its another when your family gets dragged into something because of your big mouth.[/QUOTE]

1. The irony of you saying that someone else has a big mouth actually got me to laugh out loud.

2. I did absolutely nothing to provoke that clown. He e-mailed and e-mailed for weeks without a response.

Since you like to talk like you know what happened in that situation, I will tell the story for anyone who's interested.

I won an auction, and I was interested in another of his auctions, so I asked about combined shipping. He responded that he didn't offer combined shipping because he knew that the items would end up in my store the next week (which was probably true), and he wouldn't make a profit. He said he wanted to sell them to separate buyers so he could make money on the shipping. I told him that was fine, that I wouldn't be buying from him again, and paid for my auctions.

He went off on me, telling me I was a sucker who bought from him before on another account, and started bragging about all the money he made, about how he pack searched and busted blasters, took out the good cards, resealed the packs and blasters and returned them, then sold the stuff on eBay. He sent me the link to an auction where he had sold a hot pack, and said that he had resealed that pack, and that the buyer was going to get a garbage auto out of it, and laughed that the guy had paid $32 for a $1 auto. He called me a bunch of names and the whole BamBam-like tantrum ensued, so I forwarded his e-mail to the buyer.

The buyer e-mailed him and asked whether the pack was factory sealed, and the seller went ballistic. He threatened me, my wife, said he was going to stalk my house, send letters to my neighbors telling them that I am a child molester, report me to the police for running a meth lab, etc. He used another account to win auctions of mine and not pay for them, and left me negatives. He e-mailed my buyers and told them a bunch of BS and told me that he'd never allow me to sell on eBay again.

Now, did I do anything to provoke that? The only thing I did was e-mail his buyer. Should I have done that? Well, I mean, that's questionable. On one hand, it was interfering with his business. On the other, it was the ethical thing to do, as I wouldn't want someone to get ripped off. I saved the guy $32 and a bunch of headache.

Bambam would like to have you believe that it was an argument I picked with the guy, but in reality it was just some loudmouthed hothead like Bambam who threw a tantrum and went off the deep end. It does not surprise me in the least that he would see the that guy as justified in his actions.

Bambam, I don't like to call names, but you are an absolute child. You're a troll, feeding off of the attention you get when you insult people. I will not feed you again. You will never get another response from me.

I'll be the adult, since you are incapable of it.

andrew13 08-19-2007 03:30 AM

oh, for the record, Kovalev was my favorite pen a few years back. why? he gave 110% and kept them in the race after jagr bailed. i still love that kovi and want to see him back in the black and gold. he would take things into his own hands too, as the flyers/habs game in '06 showed. what a beauty of an elbow on tucker.

oh, and i don't mean euro as a slur or anything, i'm just lazy and don't feel like writing european each and every time. but why don't i like "euro's"? mainly because they commit a lot of cheap shots then turtle when they get taken to task (kovi, ovie, ect, ect, ect). even kasper would do this. kovalev at least dropped his gloves instantly and went at it. kocci is hugely entertaining to watch, and seeing him down in WBS i knew he was going to be a beast. i am a fan of the older, physical hockey, as i think i remember bam saying he was too. it's a shame the game is now going to what the euro leagues have. and KD, i can't stand euro hockey. it's as bad as soccer to watch IMO.

bamsquared, roberts is probably my favorite on the team now. at the deadline i was weary of trading a dman (mainly cause ours suck), but now i'm thinking of altering my sid jersey to a roberts one.

and troll guy, i'm just going to respond to one thing... Cherry would make a 100x better comish than Bettman does. he knows a few things about the game and would keep it entertaining. about 1/3 these teams now i can't even stand to watch they're so boring, with NJ being the absolute worst. i'd rather watch paint dry or paris hilton try to act than them.

Rabbit 08-19-2007 03:52 AM

[QUOTE=andrew13;3592]

and troll guy, i'm just going to respond to one thing...[/QUOTE]

The only one trolling here is our loudmouthed, foul-tempered, internet-tough bully friend. I am debating with you, not trolling.

[QUOTE=andrew13;3592] Cherry would make a 100x better comish than Bettman does.[/QUOTE]

If you think that, then you clearly don't understand just what a commissioner does. Don Cherry would make an AWFUL commissioner. He lacks the intelligence, patience and temper to be a commissioner. He couldn't even cut it as a coach.

He's a funny guy to have on TV because he's a loudmouth and isn't afraid to make a fool of himself. That's not a commissioner.

[QUOTE=andrew13;3592] he knows a few things about the game
[/QUOTE]

...as does Bettman.

[QUOTE=andrew13;3592]
and would keep it entertaining.
[/QUOTE]

...as has Bettman.

[QUOTE=andrew13;3592]
about 1/3 these teams now i can't even stand to watch they're so boring,
[/QUOTE]

That's not Bettman's fault.

[QUOTE=andrew13;3592]
with NJ being the absolute worst. [/QUOTE]

Again, that's not Bettman's fault. You can blame Scotty Bowman, the Swedes and Anatoli Tarasov for that.

frozenntimesports 08-19-2007 07:47 AM

OK, enough of the border wars. Its obvious A13 didn't mean to slur all Euros, he misspoke, as a lot of young 20-somethings do. I know I wouldn't want to be judged for my life by what came out of my mouth when I was 22 or 23.

Bammer's point about the Russians not buying their own player's cards is a good one. I've never shipped to Russia. Either their economy isn't good enough to support the hobby or they are cut off by their government. It's sad, when I try to speak on the phone with relatives back in Russia or Belarus you don't know if you are being listened to or not.

Can we all stop the pissing contest now?

I think Radulov's cards will do well, Nashville started caring about the Predators when they almost lost them. Perhaps they will still care in October and that team should contend this year, even without Kariya.

BAMBAM 08-19-2007 12:23 PM

[QUOTE=Rabbit;3590]



You will never get another response from me.

[/QUOTE]


[B]Promise ? If that is the case, than you have made me the happiest man on this board[/B]


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