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Old 04-19-2017, 03:05 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Angry HELP NEEDED: "Damaged" Devin Booker NT RPA

Hi everyone,

I'm encountering a situation I've never dealt with before.

I sold my Devin Booker NT RPA Gold /10 on March 31:

2015-16 National Treasures Devin Booker RC Patch Auto Gold 06/10 | eBay






The buyer filed for a refund on April 18 due to "item arriving damaged" and provided these images.




I purchased this card on July 3, 2016 and the card is in mint/near-mint condition. The only flaws to the card are minimal soft corners on front of the card, but it definitely did not have the damage the buyer is claiming and there's no way that damage could have happened in transit. I got a bunch of my Bookers RAW BGS graded in November at the Toronto Show and this card came back 8.5 but I ended up taking it out of the sleeve.

Long story short: the buyer and I have been going back and forth the last 2 days. He sent the first 2 pictures but I refuted him saying it didn't look like my card because the back of the Booker NT RPA has orange corners. He claims to have filed a police report in Taiwan (won't provide picture of police report to me but said he sent to ebay) and claims to have video recorded the opening of the package (wouldn't send me but said he provided dropbox link to ebay). I talked to ebay and they said they haven't received anything. Then he sent the following picture:



I've since asked that he take a picture of the back of the card and still waiting for a response. I'm having a real hard time accepting that the Booker is now damaged like that. I honestly think he damaged it intentionally for reasons I do not understand. Surely he wouldn't do that because of buyer's remorse?

Has anyone been through something like this and can enlighten me on what to do next?

I called ebay and they told me if the buyer escalates the case after April 21 that they will do a full investigation and require detailed documentation and appraisal reports from the buyer. If the buyer doesn't provide sufficient information and/or by the due date then I will win the case, but I'm not banking on that right now. Ebay also told me their bias is for me to resolve this with the buyer so they don't have to pay the buyer and strongly recommended that I file a case with UPS since I've insured the package for $4500 CAD. But I feel if I do that right now that I'm giving up on the ebay investigation process. I've also never filed an insurance claim before with a shipping company and don't know how that works.

Please, if any of you can provide any kind of advice, I'd very much appreciate it!!!

I will post updates to the original post when I get replies from the buyer.

Thanks,

Ambrose

*EDIT* Adding dialogue between myself and the buyer on ebay claims page.......................................................................................

Buyer (April 18):
This is very obvious damage of card corner..... And there is no any description on the card and I can not accept this quality for this high end and expensive card. I will not buy it if I know this damage even half price. Request for refund and I can send the card back to you.

Me (April 18):
That's not possible... The card was even graded a BGS 8.5 RAW Review previously and I've got pictures of the card on all sides and there's no way the card gets damaged like that in transit being shipped in a magnetic holder and protected by bubble mailer and UPS bubble mailer. Also, the 2 pictures you sent me are not the card I sold you. You can already easily tell that the back of the card I sold you has orange corners while yours doesn't, and on close examination the back borders in your picture do not match the card I sold you. I've got many family in Taiwan and will open a police report on that side if needed as I've got your address and phone number which I will report. I will be calling paypal tomorrow.

Me (April 18):
Also, if you wish to pursue this false claim I would like some of my family to inspect the actual card at your address today or tomorrow. I'm also a reputable member on American sports card forums and if this scam indeed goes further I will be publishing this situation and your info on all sites I frequent to ensure no one deals with you to avoid being scammed as well.

Buyer (April 18):
1. Truth is truth 2. Welcome ask anyone to check the card in the police station 3. I already recorded video the card when I opened 4. I am a high end manager in Taiwan never to fake things 5. You can ask eBay to check my records, more expensive card I bought I never to any claim. Again.... Truth is truth. If you need to see I need to responsibly with Taiwan 's law. I can go to police station to report this. Don't worry.

Me (April 18):
Where is the video? Upload it date-stamped to youtube and send me the link ASAP. And where are additional pictures? You never responded to the fact that the card in the 2 pictures is not the card I sold you.

Buyer (April 18):
1. I will not load to youtobe because there is my personal image.I will provide to ebay in a dropbox and already inform ebay. 2. What image you want , I can photo to you....if you have family or friends here.they can come to the police station to see this Face to Face. 3. I already register this deal in local police station which means I promise my wordings under the law. I promise these 2 pictures is the card as you sold to me and I never had another Booker RPA.I add a photo for you.

Me (April 18):
You can crop the video to the part where you open the package and I need to see how the card looked when being taken out of the packaging. Who is the ebay contact you sent the video in a dropbox link to? The photos you provided show a DIFFERENT card with the damaged corner. The back of the card I sold you has orange corners, yours has white corners, this is already a false claim. And you have still NOT responded to this fact. I will definitely arrange for a family member to meet you at a local police station. Which police station did you go to? What's the address? What is the police file report? What did you report to the police? It makes no sense that you filed a police report for receiving a damaged item. It does make sense for me to file a police report on online fraudulent activity. You may promise things but you have provided no proof of anything so far. I am calling ebay first thing in the morning to deal with this. You did not add another picture, the pictures in this file are still the 2 same pictures.

Buyer (April 18):
1.Please contact ebay....I will provide to every details to ebay. 2.Truth is truth.The police station is in Nangang.File I will provide to ebay.There are my personal details on that.This is no sense if anyone threaten you without report to police. 3.I save the picture again.please check.

Me (April 19):
Take a multiple pictures of the back of the card on multiple angles. It's impossible that the card arrived like that.

Me (April 19):
Send the picture of the back of the card. Also, provide the address of the police station.

Buyer (April 20):
1. Add photo for you and police register form which means I am responsibility for my wordings under the low. 2. I never do any fake thing.We can meet at Nangang police station....Please prepare the money and I will give you card back to your family directly.Also they can check the video. 3.The police station is (http://police.gov.taipei/ct.asp?xIte...6358&mp=108001) 4. This is just a simple deal ; The card is not as I want as description and I just want to get my money back and the card back to you.That's it.Say clearly to you again, I am not the guy want to take both money and card. Very busy in week days and we can arrange at weekend.





Me (April 20):
You need to send more pictures. This is not enough. The first 3 images you provided looks like you've added an extra thin layer of cardboard to the back of the card with a sliced corner. This extra layer isn't even the same consistent width as the other layers. The first 2 pictures you provided don't show it's the card I sent you. The third picture clearly shows the entire side edge is separated from the rest of the card which indicates you may be adding a layer. You haven't even taken an up close picture of the actual damaged edge and corner. You need to take those pictures all along the top edge and the side edge to prove you haven't added an extra layer to the card. Card images can be easily re-printed so you need to prove the card you're "presenting" is indeed the card I sold you. The 4th picture shows the 2 grey lines to the right corner but the lines aren't even straight with a hitch in the middle. This looks like a manipulated image. The 5th picture you provided doesn't show any damage. The damage in each of the pictures you provided also don't match. Also, that "police report" you provided doesn't prove anything, anyone can type that up and print. Scan the entire document. I'll get ebay to verify the police case no. or I'll have a family member in the area to confirm the police serial no. You're intentionally providing minimal information and proof, and the holes in your proof don't add up.

Me (April 20):
Also, your police report is dated April 18, 2017 at 10:30AM. UPS tracking says the package was successfully delivered April 18, 2017 at 10:55AM. How did you obtain and file a police report before you even received the item? This makes zero sense.

Buyer (April 21):
Do not make strange confuse questions,WE are check together with UPS when they sent to me....and the police also see the card then give me the report. You are very strange.Please ask your family to arrange a appointment at police station.....they can take any pictures as you want. The all pictures shows damaged not only you can description by typing. And Truth is truth.....If you still just ask very strange questions want to delay the time,let's go for ebay to make the final decision.I will report every details to ebay..... I promise every word to my heart to the god is truth. ' You sold the card 2 times in 3 weeks....maybe I guess last buyer with same issues. Truth is truth....Truth never lie.

Me (April 21):
The police link you provided is the generic Taiwan police website, you haven't provided any details. I've asked you straight forward questions which you have not provided answers for:
- lack of a direct close up of the entire top and side edge where damage is
- inconsistent damage details between pics provided
- 3rd picture shows clear separation in the last card stock layer
- 4th picture shows a hitch in the grey diagonal lines on right corner
- timing of police report is before the time UPS indicates the item was successfully delivered
I have asked my family to reach out to police to verify the police report you provided, they will get back to me over the weekend hopefully. I will consider asking family to meet you at the station as a last resort. I called ebay last night and the high values department told me there is no use in having my family meet as ebay can't substantiate the evidence that they provide me. The card was sold a second time because the first buyer from California never paid and wanted to cancel the transaction.

Me (April 21):
Also, what do you mean you checked the item together? Who did you check the item together with? The police station? The UPS representative?

Buyer (April 22):
1. If your family can read Chinese, they will know where the police station is.... 2. When I was report to police, I show the card to the police to description the status.Of course they saw the card. 3. You can provide everyone to eBay as you want and I will provide any information I had to eBay If your family want to take photos, please let me know. I will try my best to corporate. Truth is truth......

Me (April 23):
They can read Chinese and they said the site you provided does not lead to a specific police station. I even changed the site you sent to English translation but there is no specific station, it's a generic site. They have contacted their area police to verify the report and serial no. you provided along with your name and address. I should be hearing back from them in the next 1-2 days, they said you provided minimal information on the police report so its hard to track but they will. Please send over the full police report, you only showed a small section. They also said they called the station and they need your Taiwan citizenship ID no., please provide this.

I have asked you for several more pictures of the card on both sides and all along the edges. Please send 8-10 more high quality pictures of all angles. Please also send the dropbox link of the video.

Also need response to the following which I've already asked about:
- lack of a direct close up of the entire top and side edge where damage is
- inconsistent damage details between pics provided
- 3rd picture shows clear separation in the last card stock layer
- 4th picture shows a hitch in the grey diagonal lines on right corner
- timing of police report is before the time UPS indicates the item was successfully delivered

Buyer (April 24):
1. 南港派出所, please ask them to check with Chinese name. 2. My ID is personal information..... I can not provide to you 3. Let eBay to make this final decision. Picture is truth. Item is not match as description is truth.

Me (April 24):
You said you would cooperate, but you are not cooperating. I just granted power of attorney to my family member. She has contacted Taiwanese police department with your Chinese name 徐嘉聲, English name Chia-Shen Hsu with the purpose to verify the authenticity of your police report serial numbered P10604AW9K1HJYT. She is bringing this case to the local police station today/tomorrow. All information of this case including all pictures and personal information is being provided to the police department. We will obtain an official stamped and signed letter from the police department who will confirm whether your police report is real or fake. This letter will be provided to you and to eBay when ready. If the police report turns out to be fake, we will be filing a local police report against you for falsifying a police document and for fraud.

***Buyer has officially escalated the case for eBay to review, period of mutual resolution has ended, eBay has now given the buyer 5 days to produce a 3rd party appraiser report confirming the item damaged is indeed the item that was sold***

Buyer (April 24):
Item is not as description and seller is wasting time to delay the response. I already provide the information to eBay service and I don t think I need to provide personal information to a stranger.

Me (April 24):
Hi there, I am providing a public forum thread that I initiated on the most popular sports card forum in North America. It has fetched almost 5,000 views and I have updated fellow collectors every step of the way and documented the back and forth. Please have a read through for additional insight:
http://www.blowoutcards.com/forums/b...er-nt-rpa.html
There is much reason to believe the buyer is looking to defraud me in this transaction. I have not ruled out photoshop image manipulation, attaching a physical card stock to make it appear the card is damaged, and the buyer providing a fake police report as a scare tactic to persuade me to issue a refund.
As mentioned in the dialogue, my family in Taiwan will be visiting a local Taiwan police station today and tomorrow to obtain an official stamped police document confirming the authenticity of the police report and serial # provided by the buyer. I am also hoping the police report can indicate whether the buyer indeed showed the damaged item to police offer as he claimed. My family is also obtaining what the official police document looks like which I will provide. I am hoping this evidence will give eBay the means to recognize the existence of fraud in the buyer's activity and that the case would be closed in my favour. I am dealing with a 12 hour time difference between Toronto and Taiwan, would appreciate eBay to give me a couple days to obtain this police document.
At this link, I have uploaded more high definition photos I have taken of this card from the time I purchased it on July 3, 2016 up to March 24, 2017 when I took the photos for the ebay listing:
http://s159.photobucket.com/user/ato...?sort=3&page=1
Below are the reasons I believe the buyer is making a fake case:
1) First 2 images he provided don't indicate it is the item I sold to him, I wouldn't even consider this as evidence.
2) The 3rd image he provided shows the bottom card stock layer separated from the rest of the card, there is a clear distinguished line, also the edge of the card in the photo isn't a straight line, parts of the edge are protruding out. This makes me to believe he has added an extra layer of card stock and bent the corner of this layer to make the card appear damaged.
3) The 4th image he provided shows image manipulation. You can tell by the 2 grey diagonal borders having a hitch in the middle. These should be straight lines.
4) The 5th image he provided doesn't show damage.
5) I am disputing the authenticity of his police report and the serial no. as I mentioned above. I am also disputing the fact that he was issued this police report after he went to the local Taiwan police station to show the damage of the card to the police officer. The time indicated on the police report at 10:30AM Taiwan local time is before UPS tracking declared the item was successfully delivered at 10:55AM Taiwan local time.
6) The buyer has provided minimal photos. I wouldn't count the first 2 photos he provided. I believe the buyer is afraid to disclose more photos because it would point out the inconsistencies of damage. I also believe if he used photoshop to manipulate the images, it's difficult for him to do so on multiple angles and to maintain the damage consistency.
7) The buyer has obviously dodged many of my inquiries and has remained non-cooperative. He claims I'm asking too many questions to delay the process, but in fact he sent scarce evidence leading up to the date he'd be eligible to escalate the case. And as expected, he escalated this case on April 24.

I believe the buyer's intentions are to win a refund, and to ship a fake item or an empty bubble mailer back to me in Toronto.
eBay investigations team, could you please be patient in your evaluation, investigation and decision-making, I'd truly appreciate it. Please also let me know if anything comes out of the buyer review.

I aim to provide update on the police report from my family tomorrow.

Thanks for your time investigating a complex and thorough case.

Ambrose

***Buyer status has been changed to "no longer a registered user", called eBay and the case is still open and ongoing***

***FINAL UPDATE (April 24): JUSTICE IS SERVED!!!***






Last edited by AtotheLo; 04-27-2017 at 11:13 AM. Reason: Add new info
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Old 04-19-2017, 03:18 PM   #2 (permalink)
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Ouch. International buyers make me worry no matter what. Don't know why he has buyer's remorse either, but he looks to be at kitchen table in his pic and maybe the parental units frowned on spending that kind of coin on a trading card. Based on a personal experience once, if he can't come up with that qualified, official document of appraisal as ebay asked for, which details why the value is hindered by the flaw in question, you should prevail in this case. Unless they have a legit card store to help them out.

Your story is exactly why I handed my multi-sport collection to a consignor to parse on ebay. I didn't want to run into this as a seller.
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Old 04-19-2017, 03:43 PM   #3 (permalink)
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Could it also be that he's attached an extra layer of card stock with the "damaged" corner to make it appear damaged when it isn't? If you look at that last picture, there's a running streak/separation for the bottom layer of card stock. This is incredibly frustrating.
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Old 04-19-2017, 03:50 PM   #4 (permalink)
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Could it also be that he's attached an extra layer of card stock with the "damaged" corner to make it appear damaged when it isn't? If you look at that last picture, there's a running streak/separation for the bottom layer of card stock. This is incredibly frustrating.
this

he is attempting to scam you IMO, no way it got damaged like that in transit.
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Old 04-19-2017, 03:51 PM   #5 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by AtotheLo View Post
Could it also be that he's attached an extra layer of card stock with the "damaged" corner to make it appear damaged when it isn't? If you look at that last picture, there's a running streak/separation for the bottom layer of card stock. This is incredibly frustrating.
I was actually going to ask that myself but thought I might be going too...

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Old 04-19-2017, 04:00 PM   #6 (permalink)
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this

he is attempting to scam you IMO, no way it got damaged like that in transit.
Scam how?

What's the endgame for the buyer in this situation (and can you provide the eBay name of the buyer OP)?
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Old 04-19-2017, 04:01 PM   #7 (permalink)
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There is no way that could happen unless it was sliced with a blade. Also, the thickness appears the same in all three pictures except for the extra thin stock he placed on the card in the first two pictures.
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Old 04-19-2017, 04:08 PM   #8 (permalink)
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Scam how?

What's the endgame for the buyer in this situation (and can you provide the eBay name of the buyer OP)?
His ebay ID is clive0905

He resides in Taipei, Taiwan.

If I'm allowed to post his name and address, I will gladly do so.

I feel he's trying to trigger a case which would allow for him to "return" the card, but he sends an empty mailer back.
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Old 04-19-2017, 04:12 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Is he seeking a partial refund? If so, probably a scam. I wish I had great advice, but these situations stink. Best I can say is don't accept a partial refund. Tell him if he wants a refund, he needs to return the card. Not sure if videotaping yourself opening the package would help at all, but couldn't hurt. Maybe open in front of works at post office if possible, so they can vouch for the fact that you haven't tampered with the package.
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Old 04-19-2017, 04:23 PM   #10 (permalink)
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Could it also be that he's attached an extra layer of card stock with the "damaged" corner to make it appear damaged when it isn't? If you look at that last picture, there's a running streak/separation for the bottom layer of card stock. This is incredibly frustrating.
100% spot on
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Old 04-19-2017, 04:28 PM   #11 (permalink)
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His ebay ID is clive0905

He resides in Taipei, Taiwan.

If I'm allowed to post his name and address, I will gladly do so.

I feel he's trying to trigger a case which would allow for him to "return" the card, but he sends an empty mailer back.
Have the clown hold the card at an angle where the booker card clearly shows the front along with that split edge. The reason he showed it on a flat surface is cuz that's the only way he could disguise it. If he's holding the card it'll be more obvious. But I have a feeling it'll fall on deaf ears and he'll trigger a refund with eBay/pp
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Old 04-19-2017, 04:29 PM   #12 (permalink)
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^^^^^^^^^
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Old 04-19-2017, 04:33 PM   #13 (permalink)
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Did you ship through the eBay Global Shipping Program or did you ship it straight to him? I also believe there is a damaged card underneath the Booker to make it look like that corner is damaged. The first picture is so sketchy. You can't see a single detail on the card.
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Old 04-19-2017, 04:35 PM   #14 (permalink)
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Tough one here. Hope it works out in your favour since there's no way that happened in transit and the buyer is likely trying to keep their money and steal the card potentially as you mentioned.

You should ask for a pic of the back of the card laid flat and see if the back corner is bent up since it kinda looks like he may be faking the damage as some have mentioned above.
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Old 04-19-2017, 04:38 PM   #15 (permalink)
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Did you ship through the eBay Global Shipping Program or did you ship it straight to him? I also believe there is a damaged card underneath the Booker to make it look like that corner is damaged. The first picture is so sketchy. You can't see a single detail on the card.
I shipped directly to him via UPS. Cost me $250CAD to ship including the added insurance.

Does it change things if I shipped through the eBay Global Shipping Program?
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Old 04-19-2017, 04:42 PM   #16 (permalink)
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I shipped directly to him via UPS. Cost me $250CAD to ship including the added insurance.

Does it change things if I shipped through the eBay Global Shipping Program?
yes I believe so.
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Old 04-19-2017, 04:46 PM   #17 (permalink)
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I shipped directly to him via UPS. Cost me $250CAD to ship including the added insurance.

Does it change things if I shipped through the eBay Global Shipping Program?
Yeah, once it arrives at the Global Shipping Facility and eBay checks it in you are done with the transaction. I've had to use it at times related to "lost" mail. I'm not sure how it would be managed in terms of a damaged item.
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Old 04-19-2017, 04:49 PM   #18 (permalink)
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Can someone take a high resolution image of one of their 2015-16 NT RPA edges so I can count the number of card stock layers on a typical RPA? I think on that last picture, I counted 5 layers PLUS the 6th "damaged" layer.
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Old 04-19-2017, 04:55 PM   #19 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by AtotheLo View Post
Could it also be that he's attached an extra layer of card stock with the "damaged" corner to make it appear damaged when it isn't? If you look at that last picture, there's a running streak/separation for the bottom layer of card stock. This is incredibly frustrating.
If you look really closely at the second pic, the top edge does not line up with the actual card. Also, I cannot make out any image on the front or back of the card for that matter. Maybe the photo was photo-shopped?
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Old 04-19-2017, 05:01 PM   #20 (permalink)
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this is so messed up. Best of luck, OP. definitely sounds like funny business is afoot.
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Old 04-19-2017, 05:17 PM   #21 (permalink)
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Yeah at a minimum I would demand multiple pictures showing the front and the damage, the back and the damage and several angles of the damage. Start with that. I would also speak with eBay about seeing if they offer any assistance with shipping. Could you offer a full refund that gets released after he ships it to eBay and they confirm it is there? Maybe through the Global Shipping facility? Then you pay eBay to ship it back to you?

You'd be out some money, but at least you wouldn't be out all your money AND a card.
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Old 04-19-2017, 05:18 PM   #22 (permalink)
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I've added the back and forth conversation between myself and the buyer for some additional context.

Thanks for everyone's support so far. Makes me feel a little better to at least get this out of my system.

Will have to tackle this one step at a time and hopefully this thread will serve to be useful in one way or another for someone in the future.
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Old 04-19-2017, 05:31 PM   #23 (permalink)
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Absolutely terrible if ends up being true buyer intentionally damaged/faked damage...

With an item this expensive, playing with another persons hard earned money is not acceptable and should carry several consequences... Like mentioned, if the general assumptions are correct.

Best of luck in resolving this issue.
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Old 04-19-2017, 09:28 PM   #24 (permalink)
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He totally added thin stock to the back of the card, looking at the third pic, the edges are all jacked up (look at the bottom edge near the 6 of 10). Also the second image shows a glossy/mirror like finish on the back of the card, which we know the back of these cards are not glossy.
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Old 04-19-2017, 11:30 PM   #25 (permalink)
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He has absolutely attached something to the card I blew up the images and clearly see its a thin card or something attached or held on to the card. If not mistaken the 15-16 NT RPAs are 130pt but each layer are the same exact thickness. The damaged part of the card is far thinner than the points on that set of cards. Had to go and check my own for reference. All layers are same thickness. I believe eBay really needs to stop being so buyer friendly and give the sellers some respect. Especially in these situations. Everything about your two's dialogue is sketchy. This should be punishable by the law & at least by eBay. Sellers are always getting stuffed yet buyers can get away with murder. Aaron Hernandez would be a free man if he'd bought a card on eBay before committing his murders. And got his money back from the guy who sold an the bullets by filing a dispute and winning it then sending the seller empty shell cases. And as of May 1st it's going to be even harder on sellers apparently from their statements on selling on their site. I feel for you my friend and we on here got your back 100% this is absolutely wrong.
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