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Old 10-30-2012, 03:12 PM   #176 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by brentandbecca View Post
this thread should die as it is way off point now and again, why do we all continue to come on here to argue and state our sides? people differ in opinions that is fine, but take it so far with the internet and waste time in the process, maybe we should move on to better things for the rest of the week as we must agree to disagree and we each can conduct business as we see fit and some will remain in biz and others may not over time
The intent of this thread was simply to warn those that care about a certain buyer. I even stated that "you can say whatever you want about my shipping charges, that isn't the point". That said ... at this point, I would be totally cool if the mods closed this thread down ... I might be able to get some actual work done.

This is my first big "internet argument" in quite some time ... I am once again reminded that no one ever changes their mind, and we all simply waste our time.

You are correct ... some will remain in the business/hobby, and others will pass on.
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Old 10-30-2012, 03:12 PM   #177 (permalink)
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You are all over the place dude. First you said I shouldn't make any money on shipping, then you say you don't have a problem with it. Which is it?

You are comparing me making a few dimes for my handling of the cards to a guy who overcharged you $30.
I never said you shouldnt. I said no one should be using shipping to profit as a sole source of income in auctions. THis is the reason why ebay changed its policy on final price fees.

I dont have an issue with it. I have issue with excessive shipping charges to mask profitting. Ive said it time and time again.. making a $1 off shipping is not the issue. Its the excessive piece thats the issue. In your case this buyer found it excessive. Not me. Your buyer did.
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Old 10-30-2012, 03:16 PM   #178 (permalink)
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I never said you shouldnt. I said no one should be using shipping to profit as a sole source of income in auctions. THis is the reason why ebay changed its policy on final price fees.

I dont have an issue with it. I have issue with excessive shipping charges to mask profitting. Ive said it time and time again.. making a $1 off shipping is not the issue. Its the excessive piece thats the issue. In your case this buyer found it excessive. Not me. Your buyer did.
OK, we might be back on the same page
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Old 10-30-2012, 03:28 PM   #179 (permalink)
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exactly, and why the system is flawed...so many PWE on free auto 5-star shipping, and why they are 'supposed to be' changing it in 2013
I can't think of any reason why the "shipping charge" DSR should not be "shipping charge clearly stated and met". I can set up shipping rules in eBay, so this DSR would be automatic if I adhered to my rule.

And then ... again ... if you don't like my shipping charge, then by all means buy the card you want from someone else. Or send me a message.

Something else that strikes me as funny ... what does my historical "shipping charge" DSR have to do with what I'm charging for shipping in any given live auction? So what if my shipping DSR is a 3.5 ... if I am sending you this card for free, then what is the big deal? Humorous if you think about it.
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Old 10-30-2012, 04:25 PM   #180 (permalink)
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I can't think of any reason why the "shipping charge" DSR should not be "shipping charge clearly stated and met". I can set up shipping rules in eBay, so this DSR would be automatic if I adhered to my rule.
Imo o.e exception to the "you agreed to it" stance would be charging $3+ and shipping in a pwe. Yeah, I agreed to pay $3, but that should be a safe assumption that you're going to ship my card well protected, and not in a flimsy pwe.

It takes quite a bit for me to ding a star, but charging enough to cover the works and only using the bare minimum will get a 3 or 4 from me.

The only reason ebay made an auto 5 star available for free shipping is because buyers were getting free shipping and still dinging the shipping charge star just for spite.
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Old 10-30-2012, 04:29 PM   #181 (permalink)
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Correct. Their policy states that...and I think it is crap. Hence, why I don't include those things explicitly...instead I base it on my supplies and my costs of doing business. If others don't like that or don't feel the same, again, don't buy from me.

By defending ebay's system...you're agreeing that if I charge $2.50 for an item, ship the next day in a bubble mailer, toploader, penny sleeve, etc. and it arrives 2 days later, I should get a 1 or 2 on my rating because the buyer states "anything above $2.00 deserves a low rating"

Instead, the guy that offers free shipping, yet sends 7-10 days later, in a PWE with no protection gets an automatic "5".

That sounds perfectly logical to me
That is totally not logical. The system is completely flawed. It's like how seller cannot warn others of NPB except by leaving a positive feedback with false positive comment.
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Old 10-30-2012, 04:36 PM   #182 (permalink)
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Correct. Their policy states that...and I think it is crap. Hence, why I don't include those things explicitly...instead I base it on my supplies and my costs of doing business. If others don't like that or don't feel the same, again, don't buy from me.

By defending ebay's system...you're agreeing that if I charge $2.50 for an item, ship the next day in a bubble mailer, toploader, penny sleeve, etc. and it arrives 2 days later, I should get a 1 or 2 on my rating because the buyer states "anything above $2.00 deserves a low rating"

Instead, the guy that offers free shipping, yet sends 7-10 days later, in a PWE with no protection gets an automatic "5".

That sounds perfectly logical to me
Don't get me wrong, because for the most part I am in agreement with you. However in the example you provided, yes, he would get a 5 star for shipping charge, but you are still able to rate the shipping time however you like. There are certain specifications for a seller to get auto 5 star ship time.
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Old 10-30-2012, 05:02 PM   #183 (permalink)
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Why do people feel like they have to impose their personal feelings about shipping onto others?
If you agree to buy what I sell on Ebay for a certain price AND know the shipping costs beforehand, how in the hell do you have a reason for leaving less than 5 stars if I live up to my end of the bargain? Dinging me for following the clearly stated guidelines of MY AUCTION is total BS.

I don't buy or bid for something on Ebay if I don't know how much I will end up paying. It's very simple-buy it if you agree or move on to something else if you don't. I really don't understand how it goes beyond that...
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Old 10-30-2012, 05:03 PM   #184 (permalink)
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Don't get me wrong, because for the most part I am in agreement with you. However in the example you provided, yes, he would get a 5 star for shipping charge, but you are still able to rate the shipping time however you like. There are certain specifications for a seller to get auto 5 star ship time.
No offense taken, and I totally agree. I just think the "automatic" rating that ebay promotes for a lot of these things is counterproductive. 5 stars on Communication for loading tracking info? What if I sit on the package and don't mail it? Five stars on shipping time because it meets what I state in small print in my auction? Five stars for offering free, substandard shipping?

It's all pretty flawed. Not saying there aren't parts that work, if they were handled correctly
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Old 10-30-2012, 05:03 PM   #185 (permalink)
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ps---looks like first class package mail is going on 9.8% next year for all under a pound and priority mail is up 9% so just to add to all these costs
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Old 10-30-2012, 05:04 PM   #186 (permalink)
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That is totally not logical. The system is completely flawed. It's like how seller cannot warn others of NPB except by leaving a positive feedback with false positive comment.
Agreed
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Old 10-30-2012, 05:05 PM   #187 (permalink)
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ps---looks like first class package mail is going on 9.8% next year for all under a pound and priority mail is up 9% so just to add to all these costs
So $1.80 now instead of $1.64 ... but $2 should still cover the total cost, right?
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Old 10-30-2012, 05:12 PM   #188 (permalink)
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So $1.80 now instead of $1.64 ... but $2 should still cover the total cost, right?
Absolutely...but wait...why are you charging $2, you scoundrel!

I mean, if a card sells for 99 cents, why shouldn't i offer free shipping, eat the paypal and ebay fees, the costs for supplies, etc. I'll only be in the hole for about $2 per transaction with zero profit! At this rate, my STARS will all be "5's"!! For joy!!

I mean, we can't all have things our way. Someone is gonna say "why start your auction at 99 cents?" Well, because people like to bid, that's ebay..otherwise, everything would be Buy it Now. "Why not set a reserve?" Does anyone bid on something with a reserve anymore? No..because the reserves are usually astronomical in comparison with what a card sells for.
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Old 10-30-2012, 06:10 PM   #189 (permalink)
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eBay claims to fight for buyers rights by allowing them to give low DSR's. But it's clear that eBay will remove low DSR's from high volume sellers, just to keep them in business, and keep the flow of fees coming in. eBay won't do the same for low volume sellers because, why would they care? Those sellers hardly bring any revenue to eBay anyway.

I'm a medium volume seller. I charge $1.94 for any 3 oz package, and free combined shipping. (additional cards on the same order shop for free) I still get nailed on DSR's. I have several examples where I've gotten dinged with 1-2 Stars when the buyer paid $1.94 in shipping but it cost me $2.32+ in shipping cost alone.

I look forward to the day when my DSR's get dinged bad enough so I lose my TRS status. (20% discount on FvF) That very same day I will start charging what it really costs to ship, including the true cost of handling. I'll probably be better off with that model anyway. Who knows...
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Old 10-30-2012, 06:26 PM   #190 (permalink)
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No offense taken, and I totally agree. I just think the "automatic" rating that ebay promotes for a lot of these things is counterproductive. 5 stars on Communication for loading tracking info? What if I sit on the package and don't mail it? Five stars on shipping time because it meets what I state in small print in my auction? Five stars for offering free, substandard shipping?

It's all pretty flawed. Not saying there aren't parts that work, if they were handled correctly
We're on the same page. I definitely agree there are flaws, but it's not quite as simple to get the auto 5 stars as you make it sound.

Quote:
[ To giveyou credit for transactions where a buyer doesn't need to contact you, you'll automatically receive a 5-star communication detailed seller rating if:
*You specify 1-day handling time and upload tracking information within 1 business day, *There are no buyer- or seller-initiated communications in eBay Messages
*There are no requests for contact information between you and the buyer. /QUOTE]

If you just sat on the package the buyer would be communicating with you wondering where the package is. This would nullify the auto 5 star.

There are more specifics to the ship time as well.

[QUOTE You'll automaticallyreceivea 5-starshipping time detailed seller rating if:
*You specify 1-day handling.
*You upload US Postal Service,UPS, or FedEx supportedtracking information by the end of the next business day (Pacific Time) after the buyer's payment clears. A business day is a normal weekday. Saturdays, Sundays, and major holidays aren't business days.
*Tracking data must show the package having a status of "delivered" with a delivery date within 4 days of payment clear. ]
So other than free shipping a seller still has to be on his toes to acheive the other 5 star.

I do think it's good to have a rating system. I'm lenient, but I don't see a problem with buyers rating a seller when done correctly. I strive to provide excellent service. I carry a solid 5 stars in all 4 ratings. I like the fact that that fact should stand out amongst other sellers who take their time and do not provide quality service.

However the biggest flaw (imo) is how Ebay tells buyers that a 4 is "good", but if a small time seller gets to many 4's they will be banned from selling because they weren't "excellent". There are some buyers out there who will absolutely not give a 5 for anything which is unfair to hold that against a seller who is doing a great job.
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Old 10-30-2012, 06:29 PM   #191 (permalink)
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eBay claims to fight for buyers rights by allowing them to give low DSR's. But it's clear that eBay will remove low DSR's from high volume sellers, just to keep them in business, and keep the flow of fees coming in. eBay won't do the same for low volume sellers because, why would they care? Those sellers hardly bring any revenue to eBay anyway.

I'm a medium volume seller. I charge $1.94 for any 3 oz package, and free combined shipping. (additional cards on the same order shop for free) I still get nailed on DSR's. I have several examples where I've gotten dinged with 1-2 Stars when the buyer paid $1.94 in shipping but it cost me $2.32+ in shipping cost alone.

I look forward to the day when my DSR's get dinged bad enough so I lose my TRS status. (20% discount on FvF) That very same day I will start charging what it really costs to ship, including the true cost of handling. I'll probably be better off with that model anyway. Who knows...
trust me, you are better off
during my 30 day experiment of offering FREE shipping before it was automatic 5-star, my dsrs went DOWN and my sales took big hit
I shared data with eBay they said they would see what they could do and 2 months later was auto 5-stars but still not worth it, you can get dinged elsewhere too & lose $
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Old 10-30-2012, 06:51 PM   #192 (permalink)
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Good luck to all on selling

Last edited by Orangejello727; 10-30-2012 at 06:56 PM.
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Old 10-30-2012, 07:27 PM   #193 (permalink)
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We're on the same page. I definitely agree there are flaws, but it's not quite as simple to get the auto 5 stars as you make it sound.



So other than free shipping a seller still has to be on his toes to acheive the other 5 star.

I do think it's good to have a rating system. I'm lenient, but I don't see a problem with buyers rating a seller when done correctly. I strive to provide excellent service. I carry a solid 5 stars in all 4 ratings. I like the fact that that fact should stand out amongst other sellers who take their time and do not provide quality service.

However the biggest flaw (imo) is how Ebay tells buyers that a 4 is "good", but if a small time seller gets to many 4's they will be banned from selling because they weren't "excellent". There are some buyers out there who will absolutely not give a 5 for anything which is unfair to hold that against a seller who is doing a great job.
thanks for giving the specifics. I obviously didn't research, but was giving my worst case scenario. I think the principle is still the same, and we both agree with the issue.

You're dead on on the "4" issue. It's like when you take surveys...a lot of people won't give the highest unless they are WOWED...even though service was perfect. Trust me..my company strives to be at "satisfied"..the equivilent of a "3" via Ebay standards. If we went off the "5" scale as Ebay sees it, none of us would have jobs.
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Old 10-31-2012, 12:27 AM   #194 (permalink)
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If all these sellers are complaining about Ebays shipping DSR rating system why dont you take it up with Ebay instead of bashing potential buyers. Seems like alot of sellers always have something to say to people on here but never have anything to say to Ebay. Grow a pair and take it up with Ebay. They are the ones allowing sellers to rate you. Buyers are allowed to rate you as they see fit. Dont like it, find another place to do business.
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Old 10-31-2012, 12:51 AM   #195 (permalink)
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If all these sellers are complaining about Ebays shipping DSR rating system why dont you take it up with Ebay instead of bashing potential buyers. Seems like alot of sellers always have something to say to people on here but never have anything to say to Ebay. Grow a pair and take it up with Ebay. They are the ones allowing sellers to rate you. Buyers are allowed to rate you as they see fit. Dont like it, find another place to do business.
How do you know anything about my contact with eBay? You act like only one entity can be at fault. For the record ... yes, I blame eBay for enabling buyers with too much control. But I also blame some of these buyers for ... well, just being ignorant.

I really don't like the "find another place to do business" argument. You know it's much more complicated than that.
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Old 10-31-2012, 01:42 AM   #196 (permalink)
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Let me preface this situation by saying I WOULD NEVER DO THIS but I just want to hear everyone's thoughts on it:

The last card you need for a set is on eBay for a $1.75 Buy it Now price with $6.00 shipping. You have been looking for this card for MONTHS and it is the first time it has popped up. Are you folks really going to say it is WRONG to ding the seller's shipping price DSR?

AGAIN...I WOULD NEVER DO THIS. I always give out five stars for every category unless something goes terribly wrong. I'm curious where you folks stand...
Only made it to the 4th page so far...I bought a card a few months ago for $12. Shipping was $5.34. I didn't leave the seller feedback. I agreed to the price of shipping, and the card got to me in great shape.
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Old 10-31-2012, 01:52 AM   #197 (permalink)
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How do you know anything about my contact with eBay? You act like only one entity can be at fault. For the record ... yes, I blame eBay for enabling buyers with too much control. But I also blame some of these buyers for ... well, just being ignorant.

I really don't like the "find another place to do business" argument. You know it's much more complicated than that.
I understand where you are coming from. I sell on Ebay as well. This type of thread has been made 100x on here. I know what selling on Ebay comes with. Alot of non sense from buyers. I just accept it and do the best I can to provide my customers with fair priced, fast quality service and shipping. I find when I do this that 99% of buyers treat me the same way. Theres nothing you can do unless you are willing to offer free shipping. Do the best you can. Most people are actually pretty reasonable if you approach them the right way.
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Old 10-31-2012, 07:28 AM   #198 (permalink)
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How do you know anything about my contact with eBay? You act like only one entity can be at fault. For the record ... yes, I blame eBay for enabling buyers with too much control. But I also blame some of these buyers for ... well, just being ignorant.

I really don't like the "find another place to do business" argument. You know it's much more complicated than that.
There is % that belongs to the seller for being at fault as well. Its like driving without a seat belt. It may not get you killed but you put it on to increase your percentage of not getting killed if in an accident. Likewise sellers need to do their job as well. They need to get in line and meet consumer demands when it comes to such issues.

Why do I get this feeling that many of you think that sellers make the market and not the buyers?
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Old 10-31-2012, 10:31 AM   #199 (permalink)
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I understand where you are coming from. I sell on Ebay as well. This type of thread has been made 100x on here. I know what selling on Ebay comes with. Alot of non sense from buyers. I just accept it and do the best I can to provide my customers with fair priced, fast quality service and shipping. I find when I do this that 99% of buyers treat me the same way. Theres nothing you can do unless you are willing to offer free shipping. Do the best you can. Most people are actually pretty reasonable if you approach them the right way.
Agreed. Trust me...I've let Ebay have it via phone, and all the lovely 'surveys' I get.
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Old 10-31-2012, 10:38 AM   #200 (permalink)
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Only made it to the 4th page so far...I bought a card a few months ago for $12. Shipping was $5.34. I didn't leave the seller feedback. I agreed to the price of shipping, and the card got to me in great shape.
Let me summarize then ...

I warned folks about a buyer that dinged my DSRs unjustly. Someone said "well you deserved it", and the typical flame war ensued.

That's about it.


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I understand where you are coming from. I sell on Ebay as well. This type of thread has been made 100x on here. I know what selling on Ebay comes with. Alot of non sense from buyers. I just accept it and do the best I can to provide my customers with fair priced, fast quality service and shipping. I find when I do this that 99% of buyers treat me the same way. Theres nothing you can do unless you are willing to offer free shipping. Do the best you can. Most people are actually pretty reasonable if you approach them the right way.
Absolutely agree. Very well said. Though I am the type of person that not only wants to do my best, but also try to improve the process along the way.


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There is % that belongs to the seller for being at fault as well. Its like driving without a seat belt. It may not get you killed but you put it on to increase your percentage of not getting killed if in an accident. Likewise sellers need to do their job as well. They need to get in line and meet consumer demands when it comes to such issues.

Why do I get this feeling that many of you think that sellers make the market and not the buyers?

Quite the contrary ... I think most of the sellers here are quite level-headed, and understand that the secondary cards market is a service industry. I am constantly seeking to give my buyers the highest level of service possible. You can call it cheesy or whatever ... but it brings me satisfaction to know that I got someone the card(s) they wanted for a price they were happy to pay.

I don't think this issue pertains to "consumer demands". Well ... maybe it does in theory, but the solution that eBay has put forth is not satisfactory to sellers. I would bet you there is almost a non-linear or even random relationship between DSRs and "how good a seller is", up to a certain level. There has to be a balance there, and the current DSR structure is dysfunctional.

I may be in the minority ... but from an open-market perspective, I absolutely love eBay. I don't mind paying fees on my sales, because the site is providing us all with the ability to sell in quantities that would be unmatched in a local market. However, what I don't like are the regulatory functions that remove the "openness" of the market. Regulation only creates biases. The feedback system is regulatory, but in eBay's case it is largely market-controlled which is good. The DSR system, however, is regulated with not only improper criteria, but with arbitrary thresholds set to remove "bad" sellers from being able to sell in the marketplace. But why? Why can't I just choose who I wish to buy from? I understand that the system is there to protect buyers ... but no offense, I don't need to be protected. And even if we assume that a "DSR-type" system is necessary and/or helpful, why can't it be something as simple as "would you recommend this seller to other buyers"?

I guess what I'm saying is: (1) I like eBay; (2) I like feedback; (3) the DSR system -- in its current state -- is over-regulatory, dysfunctional, and largely unnecessary.

/rant
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