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Old 02-24-2013, 03:07 AM   #1 (permalink)
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Question Transaction & Feedback Guide: When is it appropriate to leave a negative?

Feedback is very important to the life of a large B/S/T forum. Forums generally start pretty small where nearly every member knows each other. As communities grow, a method for tracking trading experiences is needed.

On vBulletin forums there is a very successful iTrader mod. It runs very similar to eBay's model. While not perfect, this is a tried and true feedback system.

iTrader feedback is designed for community communication. Instead of relying on your own circle of friends, you can get information on a potential trading partner from someone you will never meet.

So, when should you leave feedback?

Feedback should only be left by the participants in a transaction. You are either buying, selling, or trading. Once the transaction is completed and both sides are content, then you should leave feedback.

You will hear people say that feedback should be left by the seller once payment is made. This is not always true. The seller should leave feedback after the buyer has received his items and is satisfied.

Why? Because you may only leave one feedback per transaction. A buyer can pay quickly and still be a nightmare buyer once their item arrives.

When should multiple feedback be left?

Feedback should be left per transaction, but not per item.

If you purchase a lot of cards from TraderX, you should not leave multiple feedback. However, if you purchase a lot on one day and another lot on the next day, multiple feedback may be left.

Group breaks are a good example here. If TraderX buys six spots in my Bowman Draft break and one spot in my Absolute Basketball break, should I leave one, two, or seven feedback? I would leave two feedback. Others may leave one feedback that encompasses both breaks.

When is a negative or a neutral appropriate?

You must understand that this is always going to be subjective. With feedback, you actually always have 4 choices - positive, neutral, negative, and no feedback.

A positive feedback should always be left whenever your trading partner fulfilled their end of the agreement when and how they said they would. No matter how much you may disagree on a personal level, if they do what they said, when they said, and how they said, then leave them a positive feedback.

A positive feedback may also be left any time a transaction has actually failed, but the other party made good. Did they make a mistake and ship the wrong item or use the wrong shipping method or not pack properly? Mistakes happen. If they make good in a timely manner, leave them a positive.

A neutral feedback should be reserved for transactions that have failed, but you do not feel the other party had intent to scam or defraud.

A negative feedback should only be used when truly warranted. Scammers should always receive a negative feedback.

If you trade and they do not ship their end, leave a negative.
If you purchase and they do not ship, leave a negative.
If you both finalize a deal and the other party then backs out, leave a negative.

No feedback is really just a cop out. Sometimes, though, when a trade goes well but you just cannot recommend a trader due to intangibles (attitude, personality conflict, etc), then you may choose to withhold that positive feedback. I do not approve of this option usually, but it is your right to do so.

When is a deal finalized?

There are differing opinions here. I will post my thoughts and then add another view below.

A deal is only finalized when both parties agree and payment details are set.

If you are negotiating and the other party decides to deal with someone else, suck it up. You had no deal.

If I send you an offer, it is still not a deal once you respond. The reason is I may have sent multiple offers to multiple people. By the time you finally respond, I may have already sold the item. It happens.

I post a sale thread and you post "I will take it." That is still not a deal until I respond. Someone else may have sent a PM first.

I send you an offer, you reply with an acceptance, I reply with my paypal information... now we have a deal.

HINT: Always include when you are going to pay and when/how you are going to ship. If something changes, communicate! Most deals go bad due to poor communication.

A differing view:

Once a buyer says "I will take it, send me your paypal info" then there is a deal in place. If the buyer never pays, they have failed to live up to their part of the deal.

How to make the perfect transaction?

Communicate!

When you finalize any deal, you must answer three questions: what, how, when.

WHAT: What are you paying/trading? What are you selling? Be exact as possible.

HOW: How are you paying? How are you shipping?

WHEN: When will you pay? When will you ship?

If you clearly define what/how/when and then you actually DO it, that is a perfect transaction. Can there still be disagreements though? Certainly.

How to avoid poor feedback even if your transaction is falling apart:

Communicate!

Are you going to be late to pay? Are you going to be late to ship?

Communicate!

Did the post office lose the package? Is there a disagreement over condition? Did the package arrive damaged or empty?

Communicate!

Yes, a seller is ultimately responsible for the package arriving safely. However, sometimes the fairest resolution is for both parties to take a small loss. Say you bought a $10.00 card and you know the seller honestly shipped it (tracking shows movement), but the card never arrives. Perhaps you could split the difference? This won't work in every transaction, but try to be fair and treat the other person as fairly as possible.

How to leave a negative or neutral feedback:

I hate to leave negative feedback, but I will still do it when it is warranted.

1. The transaction must take place on Blowout. Do not leave feedback for an eBay transaction, a youtube transaction, or any other forum. If you want to warn the community, you can still post a thread in the member's feedback section.

(Fair warning: if you post a callout thread, be clear and unemotional, and above all else, be honest. I cannot tell you how many times a callout thread has backfired on the poster due to partial or inaccurate information, general shadiness, &/or poor math skills.)

2. You must be a part of the transaction. You must be the buyer, seller, or trader directly involved. Do not leave feedback for a friend or because you think a member is generally shady.

3. There must have been a failed transaction. The what/when/how of a transaction must have failed.

4. You should really be out something - either an item, money, or time.

5. Do not leave poor feedback as revenge. If you cannot leave an unemotional response, do not leave feedback until you have calmed down.

6. Never leave feedback as a joke - especially poor feedback. If you do this, you are damaging the veracity of all feedback you have or will ever leave. (I don't mean that you can never be humorous in your feedback, but that your feedback should still convey why you are leaving it.)

7. Post WHY you are leaving negative feedback.

This is correct:

Quote:
This member never shipped my cards and I had to file with Paypal.
This is incorrect:

Quote:
You are a jerk and the Yankees suck anyway!
8. Always leave a link to the transaction thread or callout thread whenever leaving poor feedback. This will explain the situation in detail and allow you to use more than the 60 characters allowed in the feedback.

9. Always leave a note for the mods/admin explaining in more detail why you are leaving this feedback. This will also help to protect you from retaliatory feedback.

Transaction & Feedback Guide: When is it appropriate to leave a negative?-screenshot_23.jpg

What is retaliatory feedback?

Many, many members have a skewed or inaccurate idea of retaliatory feedback. Some members think appropriate feedback is whatever they leave and retaliatory feedback is whatever they receive. OR, some people believe that the correct feedback is whatever feedback is left FIRST and retaliatory feedback is whatever is left SECOND.

Let's face it, sometimes both parties are at fault and both truly deserve a negative.

Retaliatory feedback is when the trader at fault leaves a poor feedback in retaliation for appropriate poor feedback received. This is also true if the trader at fault decides to strike first and leave a negative that was not earned only because they know they have poor feedback coming.

How can I have retaliatory feedback removed?

So, you got a negative that you did not earn. It can be very frustrating! I once had a member file a fake paypal claim and brag about it in a pm to me. It still took a few days for the negative to be removed.

BE PATIENT! You must understand that it takes time to investigate a claim of retaliatory feedback. Blowout must investigate your claim and contact the other party and investigate their side of the story. Some members will say things like "Oh if you bump a thread you get suspended immediately, but if you leave false feedback (or scam) it takes days for action." The truth is that bumping a thread takes only a few seconds to investigate whereas a false feedback or scam may take several days.

BE ACCURATE! Explain your claim in detail and back up everything you say.

BE UNEMOTIONAL! The mods don't care how much you hate anybody - they just need to know what happened.

And most importantly...

BE PROACTIVE! Before you leave a negative feedback, report the thread and/or the messages and briefly explain what you are doing and why (doesn't have to be elaborate here). Then fill in the "deal URL" box and leave full details in the "additional details" box of your feedback (this is where you want to be elaborate).

Will this always work? It depends on what type of comment is left. If the feedback says "He left me a negative so this is what he gets!" - then yes, you will be able to have the feedback removed. If the feedback says "I tried everything to make them happy. I cannot recommend this member." - then that may be more difficult to have removed. You see?

(Also, anytime an inappropriate feedback is left you can have it removed - the feedback is vulgar or includes personal information, the feedback is left by an uninvolved third party, the feedback is a joke, the feedback is about a transaction from anywhere other than Blowout, etc.)

How do I report threads/posts/messages?

Reporting messages and posts sends a copy to all mods. When you report a message, it sends an un-edited copy of that message to every mod.

So how do you report? Click the report icon () in the particular post that you want the mods to see. If it is an entire thread, report the op. You should also report the messages that back up your position. Did they message you to back out of a deal? Report that message! Did they message you and lie about shipping time or tracking (or whatever), report the message.

When you make a report, there is a section for your notes to the mods. You can say, this is where he backs out of our deal or this is where they lie about shipping, etc.

The report icon () is located bottom left in all posts and top right in all received personal messages.

What about group breaks?

I wish that the iTrader had a way to add another option besides just buy, sell, or trade. If I could, I would add "group break."

So, should iTrader be left for group breaks? Absolutely.

You should leave the host iTrader once your items arrive and the host should leave you iTrader as well. If you buy, sell, or trade spots within a group break, you should also leave iTrader for those transactions as well.

If a person joins a break but then never pays, should they be left a negative? No. While you sharpen your pitchforks, let me explain why... a group break fills at it's own pace and some can fill in minutes while others may take weeks. A person may join a group break that then never fills... or may not fill for a month! In the meantime, life happens or that person just may forget. It is not intent to defraud, it is just life. (There are obvious exceptions - like if a person is on and posting yet ignores the host's PM, etc.)

Does the host have the right to leave a negative? Yes, absolutely. However, in my opinion, it is in poor form.

Does another participant (besides the host) have the right to leave any iTrader for a non-paying group break participant? Absolutely not! Any feedback like that would be removed as inappropriate of course.

--------------------------------------

This is my personal guide and has not been sanctioned by Blowout Cards in any way.

If you see anything I missed or if you have any questions, please feel free to post below.

I hope this doesn't come across as a know-it-all post. I do not mean it that way honestly. I have just seen some crazy things said or done regarding feedback lately that I decided to write up a quick guide... that ended up not being so quick. Sorry.

--------------------------------------

EDIT: Added this to When is a deal finalized? section:

Quote:
A differing view:

Once a buyer says "I will take it, send me your paypal info" then there is a deal in place. If the buyer never pays, they have failed to live up to their part of the deal.
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Last edited by houdini; 02-24-2013 at 04:01 PM.
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Old 02-24-2013, 03:16 AM   #2 (permalink)
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nicely done.
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Old 02-24-2013, 03:18 AM   #3 (permalink)
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Sticky this baby up! I may not agree w/all of it, but a good 95-99% of it I do. Nice post. well thought out and I think it covers everything.
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Old 02-24-2013, 03:26 AM   #4 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cactuspies View Post
Sticky this baby up! I may not agree w/all of it, but a good 95-99% of it I do. Nice post. well thought out and I think it covers everything.
I respect your opinion. If you would post or pm where we vary, I could probably add it as a differing opinion.

I know certain areas will be open for differing opinions - like when a seller should leave a positive. Normally I will do this immediately after payment, but from a seller protection point of view it is safer to wait. Also, the group break negatives - I know there ARE situations where it is appropriate to leave a negative, but I think those are the exceptions and not the rule per se.
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Old 02-24-2013, 03:35 AM   #5 (permalink)
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Old 02-24-2013, 03:45 AM   #6 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by houdini View Post
I respect your opinion. If you would post or pm where we vary, I could probably add it as a differing opinion.

I know certain areas will be open for differing opinions - like when a seller should leave a positive. Normally I will do this immediately after payment, but from a seller protection point of view it is safer to wait. Also, the group break negatives - I know there ARE situations where it is appropriate to leave a negative, but I think those are the exceptions and not the rule per se.
probably just around the area of when a deal is finalized.

If you are negotiating and the other party decides to deal with someone else, suck it up. You had no deal.

If I send you an offer, it is still not a deal once you respond. The reason is I may have sent multiple offers to multiple people. By the time you finally respond, I may have already sold the item. It happens.

I post a sale thread and you post "I will take it." That is still not a deal until I respond. Someone else may have sent a PM first.


it's easy for someone (seller) to send a pp addy over and say "Deal" and then never hear back, it's happened to me many times. I've given my addy and then nada and no replies to follow ups all while you are holding a card and leaving others at bay that also want that card/lot/deal.
I think that is just a gray area and your reasoning listed above could actually be why.
I've have yet to give a neg on here and gave only one neutral.
I'm not perfect and I may have even been at fault for not returning PMs on possible deals, but I bet nearly all of us are guilty of that.

I'm a seller who will give itrader/feedback after the deal is done, just my personal choice I carry over from ebay and for the same reasons you give. as buyer I will give itrader/feedback once I have it and I'm good.
I probably over communicate with people most of the time

Like I said, this is very well thought out and covers I think almost anything that can pop up.
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Old 02-24-2013, 04:29 AM   #7 (permalink)
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This needs to be sticky ASAP.
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Old 02-24-2013, 05:25 AM   #8 (permalink)
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This may never be the "gospel"; but it's certainly a wonderful guide and tool. Thanks for posting.
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Old 02-24-2013, 06:03 AM   #9 (permalink)
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Excellent thread that should be a sticky.

Hopefully, members read this.
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Old 02-24-2013, 07:42 AM   #10 (permalink)
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very well done and thought out
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Old 02-24-2013, 01:23 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by houdini View Post
Does another participant (besides the host) have the right to leave any iTrader for a non-paying group break participant? Absolutely not! Any feedback like that would be removed as inappropriate of course.
I disagree and will be leaving negative feedback for every member who does exactly as you've described. Anyone in a group break, posting and not paying, who does not contact the break or the host to relinquish spots will get a negative from me.

If you want to spend your time petitioning to have that negative removed, you're more than welcome to do so.
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Old 02-24-2013, 01:25 PM   #12 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NeedChapmans View Post
I disagree and will be leaving negative feedback for every member who does exactly as you've described. Anyone in a group break, posting and not paying, who does not contact the break or the host to relinquish spots will get a negative from me.

If you want to spend your time petitioning to have that negative removed, you're more than welcome to do so.
Well, it was nice knowing you then. Feedback abuse is actually not tolerated on Blowout.
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Old 02-24-2013, 01:32 PM   #13 (permalink)
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Whoaaa there. Can I get some cliffs notes please?
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Old 02-24-2013, 01:32 PM   #14 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by houdini View Post
Well, it was nice knowing you then. Feedback abuse is actually not tolerated on Blowout.
Could have sworn I read "this is not a know it all post" ... but you seem to say otherwise in that one sentence. I guess we'll see. If Blowout decides my actions of leaving negatives for deadbeats that hold the rest of us up warrants a lifetime ban ... so be it. Not a place I would care to be then anyway.

Surprised to see you up this early Houdini ...
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Old 02-24-2013, 01:35 PM   #15 (permalink)
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Heres one area you didnt touch on... when a group break goes active there is a window to pay...24-48-72 hours after which time if payment is not recieved then a back up is utilized. Now i have been part of several break all dif hosts and some are smooth as butter and other go smooth but the host once paid/breaks takes forever to ship sometimes up to three weeks to a month its a dick move bc some people join to make money but when a host breaks he never says what his turnaround time to deliver said goods is. Some hosts break more then others and some break one case a month...obviously the one who breaks 20-30 cases has some time bc of the amount he has to ship but anything over 2 weeks is unacceptable as the rate products release value drops significantly...there are people who break independently on their websites who break 3-4 cases a night and still ship with in 2-3 days so only excuse is laziness. In my eyes a host who takes 3+ weeks to ship is borderline neg espcially if he does not set the expectation of taking weeks to ship...right now Catfishberg is one of the said host who held a break on Superbowl sunday and there are people who still have not even had their cards shipped if he didnt lose life/limb/liberty he is one host I will prob add to my ignore lists...another host was Jeremyhi or something like that who held a break and members told him they wanted their base well Jeremy did not ship base and even traded it to his local LCS and then was upset when people wanted it and told him and showed him the messages requesting Base...but I see he isnt breaking much if any now.
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Old 02-24-2013, 01:37 PM   #16 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NeedChapmans View Post
Could have sworn I read "this is not a know it all post" ... but you seem to say otherwise in that one sentence. I guess we'll see. If Blowout decides my actions of leaving negatives for deadbeats that hold the rest of us up warrants a lifetime ban ... so be it. Not a place I would care to be then anyway.

Surprised to see you up this early Houdini ...
Well, this isn't a gray area. This is pretty straightforward. You are not involved with the transaction - only the host. Therefore, only the host can leave feedback - not any third party.

Feedback abuse is when a third party leaves ANY feedback.

Of course Blowout will not allow it. Nor will any forum that I have ever found on the Internet.
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Old 02-24-2013, 01:44 PM   #17 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by houdini View Post
Well, this isn't a gray area. This is pretty straightforward. You are not involved with the transaction - only the host. Therefore, only the host can leave feedback - not any third party.

Feedback abuse is when a third party leaves ANY feedback.

Of course Blowout will not allow it. Nor will any forum that I have ever found on the Internet.
I disagree again. When someones actions directly effect me, I am not a third party. By deciding not to pay for a group break, that person is slowing me down in terms of when I can draft, when I can see the random / the break / and when the cards will ultimately arrive at my door. You say yourself "If you both finalize a deal and the other party then backs out, leave a negative". In a group break, everyone is in a deal with everyone ... not just the host.

I agree it is the hosts job to leave a negative more than anyone, but board members also have the right.

Ya know Houdini ... I can't help to feel you wrote this whole thing as a direct response to my comments made last night when you strolled in 4 hours late to pay for your one spot in a 258 spot group break. Of all the people in the world, THE group breaker should never be so inconsiderate.
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Old 02-24-2013, 01:46 PM   #18 (permalink)
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Heres one area you didnt touch on...
True, I didn't go into it that deep for breaks. I have been writing a detailed guide on breaking for a while now and I would actually submit that one to Chris & Fish before I posted it.

Sorting takes a lot of time. I am actually hiring someone part time to help me sort, pack, and ship.

Breaking is fun, but it certainly can be a lot of work too depending on format and case total.

Sorting, packing, and shipping is a lot of work. I mail several hundred packages in a week usually.

I cannot speak on shipping times though because some people have 2 jobs and/or large families... it can be tough.

I think the most important part is communication. However, eventually even that gets old and you just want your cards.
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Old 02-24-2013, 01:50 PM   #19 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by NeedChapmans View Post
I disagree again. When someones actions directly effect me, I am not a third party. By deciding not to pay for a group break, that person is slowing me down in terms of when I can draft, when I can see the random / the break / and when the cards will ultimately arrive at my door. You say yourself "If you both finalize a deal and the other party then backs out, leave a negative". In a group break, everyone is in a deal with everyone ... not just the host.

I agree it is the hosts job to leave a negative more than anyone, but board members also have the right.

Ya know Houdini ... I can't help to feel you wrote this whole thing as a direct response to my comments made last night when you strolled in 4 hours late to pay for your one spot in a 258 spot group break. Of all the people in the world, THE group breaker should never be so inconsiderate.
Your comments? You mean your threats to start leaving random people negatives at your pleasure? Well, you were the straw that broke the camels back so to speak.

What you describe is so ridiculous that I am a loss for words.

Should all participants be leaving each other positives when they pay for group breaks? Because if the answer is no, then you cannot leave a negative either.
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Old 02-24-2013, 02:01 PM   #20 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by houdini View Post
Your comments? You mean your threats to start leaving random people negatives at your pleasure? Well, you were the straw that broke the camels back so to speak.

What you describe is so ridiculous that I am a loss for words.

Should all participants be leaving each other positives when they pay for group breaks? Because if the answer is no, then you cannot leave a negative either.
You're absolutely right. It is a threat ... a threat to those who think they can waste others time. If no one does anything / it will happen more and more often to the point where an active break will be half empty when the payment deadline is due. If you as a group break host do not want to leave negative feedback; that is your right ... but you cannot tell me what to do or how to act when someone's decision directly impacts me. That is my right as a board member on this forum.

But for whatever reason, you feel I am not allowed to leave negative feedback and go as far as to say "Warning - I will have every negative for every person removed. You have no right to leave such a negative." You ARE NOT a mod of this forum and you DO NOT control anything about leaving feedback in transactions which do not concern you. Ironically, you will be the "third party" if you decide to try and have negative feedback removed.

To suggest you can reverse my actions whenever you feel tells me you've built your pedestal quite high.
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Old 02-24-2013, 02:33 PM   #21 (permalink)
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I'm no mod.

However, policing the threads from inappropriate actions such as yoiu suggest is the responsibility of EVERY member.

If you were to post such an inappropriate negative, I would contact the mods and admin to have it removed. I would like to think most members would also fight against feedback abuse.
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Old 02-24-2013, 02:39 PM   #22 (permalink)
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You're absolutely right. It is a threat ... a threat to those who think they can waste others time. If no one does anything / it will happen more and more often to the point where an active break will be half empty when the payment deadline is due. If you as a group break host do not want to leave negative feedback; that is your right ... but you cannot tell me what to do or how to act when someone's decision directly impacts me. That is my right as a board member on this forum.

But for whatever reason, you feel I am not allowed to leave negative feedback and go as far as to say "Warning - I will have every negative for every person removed. You have no right to leave such a negative." You ARE NOT a mod of this forum and you DO NOT control anything about leaving feedback in transactions which do not concern you. Ironically, you will be the "third party" if you decide to try and have negative feedback removed.

To suggest you can reverse my actions whenever you feel tells me you've built your pedestal quite high.
POint of fact here - Houdini at no time implied he would reverse your actions, he only cautioned you that what you were proposing to do is a clear violation of BO's rules regarding feedback. Furthermore, at no point did Houdini attack you or do anything to warrant your ad-hominem attack here. For goodness' sake, all he's doing is trying to help the forum by providing unbiased, logical, and fair guidelines for leaving feedback.

To infer that he's put his pedestal above anyone else is ludicrous. To the contrary, by your statements you are taking the 'holier than thou' approach.

I have no dog in this fight.

God Bless.
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Old 02-24-2013, 02:49 PM   #23 (permalink)
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I'm no mod.

However, policing the threads from inappropriate actions such as yoiu suggest is the responsibility of EVERY member.

If you were to post such an inappropriate negative, I would contact the mods and admin to have it removed. I would like to think most members would also fight against feedback abuse.
If the person for whom I leave a negative has a problem with the negative, they can certainly ask for the negative to be removed. And should the mods oblige, so be it.

You feel it is inappropriate ... I do not.
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Old 02-24-2013, 02:53 PM   #24 (permalink)
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So ummmmmmmmmmmmm......What about when someone says "I will take it ,please send me your paypal info" and never pays. Then a bunch of people come on here saying it was not a deal because money was not exchanged therefore you cannot leave a neg, how would you address this? I could be wrong but I was under the impression someone wanted the card when they said,of there own free will "I will take it,send me your paypal info". I mean in all seriousness what else does "I will take it,send me your paypal address" mean?
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Old 02-24-2013, 02:58 PM   #25 (permalink)
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POint of fact here - Houdini at no time implied he would reverse your actions, he only cautioned you that what you were proposing to do is a clear violation of BO's rules regarding feedback. Furthermore, at no point did Houdini attack you or do anything to warrant your ad-hominem attack here. For goodness' sake, all he's doing is trying to help the forum by providing unbiased, logical, and fair guidelines for leaving feedback.

To infer that he's put his pedestal above anyone else is ludicrous. To the contrary, by your statements you are taking the 'holier than thou' approach.

I have no dog in this fight.

God Bless.
No ... point of fact / Houdini countered my "Warning" with one of his own after he was a no pay, no show for a break he recently entered. He wrote this piece in direct response to me; his writing is biased because of what I said specifically to him last night. Had this been written yesterday, it would have been written differently no doubt (in parts)

Houdini is telling what I can and cannot do; and he is in no position to do so. He can say "I don't think leaving a negative in a group break is a good idea" but chooses to say "You cannot leave a negative, if you do, it is abuse and I will have it removed" Who the hell is Houdini to make such a statement? The last time I checked, the URL of this forum is BlowoutCards.com, not HoudinisHouseofCards.com.

Members can leave feedback any way they want to. For anyone other than a Blowout.com Mod, or authoritative figure to suggest otherwise is irresponsible.
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