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Old 09-13-2013, 10:49 AM   #226 (permalink)
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Or does my analogy suck? Maybe it does. This thread hurt my head.
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Old 09-13-2013, 10:55 AM   #227 (permalink)
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I collect art screen prints a bit. Sometimes an artist sells or gives away a test sheet which is usually on larger paper that they print just to make sure everything is good.

This test sheet is the same ink used on the released run, the same paper used on the released run, and is identical to the print that ends up being released in every way, other than that it's on larger paper.

If I go and have it professionally cut to the exact size of the print that was released it is for all intent and purposes, no different than the released run. It wasn't included in that run but it was made by the same artist, using the same paper, with the same ink and at the same time. All I did was cut it.

So yes, it's not technically part of the released batch, but can anyone tell me what the difference is?
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Old 09-13-2013, 10:59 AM   #228 (permalink)
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If you can buy 12 of the "exactly the same versions (thicker stock) for the price e of one of the real versions.... than yes there is a substantial difference.
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Old 09-13-2013, 11:03 AM   #229 (permalink)
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If you can buy 12 of the "exactly the same versions (thicker stock) for the price e of one of the real versions.... than yes there is a substantial difference.
are the sheet ones on different card stock?
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Old 09-13-2013, 11:04 AM   #230 (permalink)
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So lets say you pay $500 for it because it's stated to you only 1 has been made. Someone gets a hold of a few test sheets of the same print you have and cuts them up. Don't you in your mind question yours and just how many are available now?

Also it is precisely the fact that nobody can tell te difference that is bothersome. To be put out into the market makes the validity of all Jambalays questionable. Their value is based in how difficult it was to obtain them through packs. Now what? The basis of their value is flushed down the drain. Other sheet-cut cards had more obvious tells because of serial numbering, but this has none. So it is precisely the dilemma, not the answer to why it's okay and "if yu can't tell the difference, why does it matter?"

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I collect art screen prints a bit. Sometimes an artist sells or gives away a test sheet which is usually on larger paper that they print just to make sure everything is good.

This test sheet is the same ink used on the released run, the same paper used on the released run, and is identical to the print that ends up being released in every way, other than that it's on larger paper.

If I go and have it professionally cut to the exact size of the print that was released it is for all intent and purposes, no different than the released run. It wasn't included in that run but it was made by the same artist, using the same paper, with the same ink and at the same time. All I did was cut it.

So yes, it's not technically part of the released batch, but can anyone tell me what the difference is?
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Old 09-13-2013, 11:06 AM   #231 (permalink)
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If I buy a new car - take the whole thing apart - and pay a body shop to put it back together can I then sell it as a new car to someone? or should I disclose that it was altered in some way even though it was put back together the same way Honda would do it?

It's still a Honda car. It's still got Honda part. It just wasn't put together by Honda themselves when I'm selling it.

Would you want to know about it?

Or does my analogy suck? Maybe it does. This thread hurt my head.
A new car has manufacturer warranty. Once you alter the car, it breaks that warrnaty. Hence, it is not as "new" as what Honda would sell for.
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Old 09-13-2013, 11:07 AM   #232 (permalink)
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I collect art screen prints a bit. Sometimes an artist sells or gives away a test sheet which is usually on larger paper that they print just to make sure everything is good.

This test sheet is the same ink used on the released run, the same paper used on the released run, and is identical to the print that ends up being released in every way, other than that it's on larger paper.

If I go and have it professionally cut to the exact size of the print that was released it is for all intent and purposes, no different than the released run. It wasn't included in that run but it was made by the same artist, using the same paper, with the same ink and at the same time. All I did was cut it.

So yes, it's not technically part of the released batch, but can anyone tell me what the difference is?
None of that is really the point.

You collect these test sheets. What if you weren't the one doing the cutting. If you bought a "test sheet" that someone else cut - even if you are OK with that - wouldn't you at least want to know that it was issued differently?

It's about disclosure. Not necessarily that there is a difference.
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Old 09-13-2013, 11:09 AM   #233 (permalink)
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So lets say you pay $500 for it because it's stated to you only 1 has been made. Someone gets a hold of a few test sheets of the same print you have and cuts them up. Don't you in your mind question yours and just how many are available now?

Also it is precisely the fact that nobody can tell te difference that is bothersome. To be put out into the market makes the validity of all Jambalays questionable. Their value is based in how difficult it was to obtain them through packs. Now what? The basis of their value is flushed down the drain. Other sheet-cut cards had more obvious tells because of serial numbering, but this has none. So it is precisely the dilemma, not the answer to why it's okay and "if yu can't tell the difference, why does it matter?"

Have there been a lot of uncut sheets sold on ebay and that you've seen? I don't think the uncut sheets drastically change the print run
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Old 09-13-2013, 11:10 AM   #234 (permalink)
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A new car has manufacturer warranty. Once you alter the car, it breaks that warrnaty. Hence, it is not as "new" as what Honda would sell for.
That's getting pretty specific - that's just voiding a legal contract for repairs. The concept is still the same.

Same company, same companies parts, just someone else putting it together exactly the same way the company would - but the company didn't do it.

Would you be cool with a card being colored in if it had a corner issue if I sent it somewhere that colored it the exact same way using the same process that Fleer would have? Or would you want to know?

What about a comic book. What if a page was super messed up for color. If I sent that to an art shop and they did the same process as Marvel would have would you want that disclosed that the comic wasn't actually issued that way?
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Old 09-13-2013, 11:12 AM   #235 (permalink)
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Have there been a lot of uncut sheets sold on ebay and that you've seen? I don't think the uncut sheets drastically change the print run
That's exactly it, we have no idea how many uncut sheets exist. So that is why we have to question it, but too me, even one more added in from an uncut sheet is too much.
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Old 09-13-2013, 11:14 AM   #236 (permalink)
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None of that is really the point.

You collect these test sheets. What if you weren't the one doing the cutting. If you bought a "test sheet" that someone else cut - even if you are OK with that - wouldn't you at least want to know that it was issued differently?

It's about disclosure. Not necessarily that there is a difference.
Honestly, not sure how differently I feel about cards than art, but I recently bought a very nice art print from an artist directly. It sold out a long time ago, but he had some AP copies still and sold me one. I had no issues with it whatsoever.

Again, I don't know how I'd feel if it were a similar situation with cards. The art I buy is because I like it and want to hang it up, similarly the cards I buy are mainly because I like the players and the cards and want to hold on to them.

To a person whose dream-card is a Jordan Jambalaya and he buys one of these for his PC with no intentions of selling, does it really matter how it was cut if no one could tell the difference?

Just throwing these questions out there, not sure if that's how I actually feel.
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Old 09-13-2013, 11:16 AM   #237 (permalink)
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are the sheet ones on different card stock?
I was using your example.

In this situation he is destroying the print run... rarity is valuable. Its what really drives sales. We all know that.

There is no argument where this isn't morally disturbing.
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Old 09-13-2013, 11:16 AM   #238 (permalink)
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Honestly, not sure how differently I feel about cards than art, but I recently bought a very nice art print from an artist directly. It sold out a long time ago, but he had some AP copies still and sold me one. I had no issues with it whatsoever.

Again, I don't know how I'd feel if it were a similar situation with cards. The art I buy is because I like it and want to hang it up, similarly the cards I buy are mainly because I like the players and the cards and want to hold on to them.

To a person whose dream-card is a Jordan Jambalaya and he buys one of these for his PC with no intentions of selling, does it really matter how it was cut if no one could tell the difference?

Just throwing these questions out there, not sure if that's how I actually feel.
To me the answer is absolutely yes.

If I buy a card - PC or not - I at least want to know that it wasn't altered from the way it was issued by the manufacturer. If it was then I want to know.

Doesn't mean I wouldn't buy it - maybe I would since it is essentially the same - but I'd sure as hell want to know that it wasn't issued by the company in the way I'd be buying it.
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Old 09-13-2013, 11:24 AM   #239 (permalink)
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That's getting pretty specific - that's just voiding a legal contract for repairs. The concept is still the same.

Same company, same companies parts, just someone else putting it together exactly the same way the company would - but the company didn't do it.

Would you be cool with a card being colored in if it had a corner issue if I sent it somewhere that colored it the exact same way using the same process that Fleer would have? Or would you want to know?

What about a comic book. What if a page was super messed up for color. If I sent that to an art shop and they did the same process as Marvel would have would you want that disclosed that the comic wasn't actually issued that way?
Different industry has different laws. There is lemon law in auto industry to protect consumer. You can easily write up complain in BBB.

However, you don't have much protection in this hobby. It all goes down to reputation. Thread like this will help the collectors on what is going on. There is nothing you can force the seller to disclose everything. And besides, once OP "sells" the card to his friend, the card is no longer on the hook of uncut sheet. Isn't what some people having multiple accounts in ebay and BO to clean their business?
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Old 09-13-2013, 11:27 AM   #240 (permalink)
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Different industry has different laws. There is lemon law in auto industry to protect consumer. You can easily write up complain in BBB.

However, you don't have much protection in this hobby. It all goes down to reputation. Thread like this will help the collectors on what is going on. There is nothing you can force the seller to disclose everything. And besides, once OP "sells" the card to his friend, the card is no longer on the hook of uncut sheet. Isn't what some people having multiple accounts in ebay and BO to clean their business?
Not really my point. You're going way deeper then I am.

What about the coloring a card question? It's as simple as that.

You'd really have no problem with a card that was messed up in the print run issued by the manufacturer being colored in by a third party company as long as they did it the same way that card company does? And even if you still wanted the card wouldn't you at least want to know?
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Old 09-13-2013, 11:30 AM   #241 (permalink)
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Honestly, not sure how differently I feel about cards than art, but I recently bought a very nice art print from an artist directly. It sold out a long time ago, but he had some AP copies still and sold me one. I had no issues with it whatsoever.

Again, I don't know how I'd feel if it were a similar situation with cards. The art I buy is because I like it and want to hang it up, similarly the cards I buy are mainly because I like the players and the cards and want to hold on to them.

To a person whose dream-card is a Jordan Jambalaya and he buys one of these for his PC with no intentions of selling, does it really matter how it was cut if no one could tell the difference?

Just throwing these questions out there, not sure if that's how I actually feel.
If that is the case, I wonder why UD doesn't print the exact copy of 97-98 PMG green? It can easily give UD 50k cash even on the 11th copy.

Heck, why Fleer would go out of business? They should just continue to print those 90's inserts. And UD should print 03-04 exquisite. I'm sure there are more than 99 people wants Lebron RPA.
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Old 09-13-2013, 11:30 AM   #242 (permalink)
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Not really my point. You're going way deeper then I am.

What about the coloring a card question? It's as simple as that.

You'd really have no problem with a card that was messed up in the print run issued by the manufacturer being colored in by a third party company as long as they did it the same way that card company does? And even if you still wanted the card wouldn't you at least want to know?
print runs are a joke regardless though.

Look at the redemption replacements. Those are never packed out so who knows how many are out there of any card?
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Old 09-13-2013, 11:32 AM   #243 (permalink)
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If it was my dream card - my dream card would be the rare, hard to find, pack inserted card that people went nuts busting packs trying to find.

The intent to sell is not the argument, it' rather irrelevant in my opinion.

What OP did was extremely selfish in my eyes.

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Honestly, not sure how differently I feel about cards than art, but I recently bought a very nice art print from an artist directly. It sold out a long time ago, but he had some AP copies still and sold me one. I had no issues with it whatsoever.

Again, I don't know how I'd feel if it were a similar situation with cards. The art I buy is because I like it and want to hang it up, similarly the cards I buy are mainly because I like the players and the cards and want to hold on to them.

To a person whose dream-card is a Jordan Jambalaya and he buys one of these for his PC with no intentions of selling, does it really matter how it was cut if no one could tell the difference?

Just throwing these questions out there, not sure if that's how I actually feel.
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Old 09-13-2013, 11:34 AM   #244 (permalink)
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Not really my point. You're going way deeper then I am.

What about the coloring a card question? It's as simple as that.

You'd really have no problem with a card that was messed up in the print run issued by the manufacturer being colored in by a third party company as long as they did it the same way that card company does? And even if you still wanted the card wouldn't you at least want to know?
Yes, I want to know if there is 3rd-party fix on the card. However, people who does this kind of thing wouldn't state anything. It is like if you trim a card, no one would bother to state the card is trimmed.

The only way it is stated is because someone got caught, and need to write up children education to justify their action.

I got to feed my family, man.
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Old 09-13-2013, 11:37 AM   #245 (permalink)
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Yes, I want to know if there is 3rd-party fix on the card. However, people who does this kind of thing wouldn't state anything. It is like if you trim a card, no one would bother to state the card is trimmed.

The only way it is stated is because someone got caught, and need to write up children education to justify their action.

I got to feed my family, man.
Haha well I agree with all this.

I know this type of thing will never get disclosed properly - but I'm just amazed at the amount of people that don't care at all.
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Old 09-13-2013, 11:41 AM   #246 (permalink)
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Haha well I agree with all this.

I know this type of thing will never get disclosed properly - but I'm just amazed at the amount of people that don't care at all.
Maybe they only buy $10 card. They wouldn't understand what is being cheated on $1000.
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Old 09-13-2013, 12:02 PM   #247 (permalink)
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Here's another question for you....what if the OP gets even better at cutting -- so much better that he can cut them better than the original manufacturer....so that the centering, edges, etc. are always PERFECT so he can get a BGS 9.5 or BGS 10? What if he can make the cards better than the manufacture and instead of selling the card for 3.5K, he can sell them for 5-7K or 10K?

All I know is that I now can never buy another Jambalaya.
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Old 09-13-2013, 12:07 PM   #248 (permalink)
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Here's another question for you....what if the OP gets even better at cutting -- so much better that he can cut them better than the original manufacturer....so that the centering, edges, etc. are always PERFECT so he can get a BGS 9.5 or BGS 10? What if he can make the cards better than the manufacture and instead of selling the card for 3.5K, he can sell them for 5-7K or 10K?

All I know is that I now can never buy another Jambalaya.
It's called trimming. It works on every card.
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Old 09-13-2013, 12:12 PM   #249 (permalink)
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This thread really has it all. If we can only find a way to get an MJ vs Lebron comparison in here somewhere it could be the ultimate BO basketball thread!
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Old 09-13-2013, 01:16 PM   #250 (permalink)
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What about a comic book. What if a page was super messed up for color. If I sent that to an art shop and they did the same process as Marvel would have would you want that disclosed that the comic wasn't actually issued that way?
- Finally a comic book reference! The leading provider of comic book grading is extremely critical in its process and will make Beckett/JSA/PSA all look like lab rats! As you can see in this link ( Certified Guaranty Company, LLC - CGC Grading - Label Description ); they will go through the book quite extensively and notice any discoloration and label it as a "purple label book" meaning restored and collectors are reluctant to bid on these books.

The reference to rats is that CGC will ONLY AUTHENTIC a signature if an approved representative is present when the item is being autographed. If a book is submitted to CGC without a witness; it will get a green label instead of a yellow label.

Also, CGC will go through the book and check for size of pages, staples, color "touches" as it is referred to, along with other things they look for. This thread has just reconfirmed my notion of collecting comic books compared to sports cards as I used to, but will still pick up a few here and there.

Either way, if the OP is not truly concerned with publicizing his cards as being cut here on blowout; why not disclose the same thing in his Ebay auctions? Full transparency will speak volumes for his character, but might cause his auctions to end for less; however, he is being honest up front.

Have fun and collect comics...

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