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Old 09-11-2013, 05:50 PM   #76 (permalink)
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Again, I never had any intention of deceiving anyone. Candidly, I don't appreciate that assertion.

Edges are an issue on this card when cut by Fleer as well. Again, I used the same exact process that Fleer used, even going the length of having a special die made at great expense and having them cut at a machine printing shop using that die.

In my eyes, your assertion that it is not a "real card" is as laughable as you probably think mine is that it is a real card.

From now on, I'll try to give the complete known history of every card I list on eBay. It would go something like this......."produced by XXXXX card company and then shipped to XXXX card shop in Anytown, USA. Pulled by a boy named Brian, who then traded it to his friend Jimmy, who then sold it to XXXX card shop, who then listed it on eBay.

Like I said, I don't know that ANY of my cards were pack inserted unless I pulled them from a pack myself (and I don't open too many packs), so while you may feel this is tongue-in-cheek or a "cop out" it would be ridiculous for me to list in every auction whether a card was pack pulled or not pack pulled. It would open me up to liability on something that I don't control in most circumstances.

The card was not sent to BGS to deceive anyone. It was sent there because I thought it would get a good grade. If I were trying to deceive people, I would agree that I were being unethical, but I'm not. I personally don't find the action of cutting cards from sheets to be unethical. It's a personal preference, but I'm happy with sheet cut cards. I'm one of those weirdos that don't care who a card was cut by. Just my opinion.

You're entitled to your opinion. I'm sorry you feel that way. I understand that there may be others that share your opinion. My overall reputation in this industry is absolutely flawless, but lots of people fall on different sides of the fence on the "sheet cut" argument and I respect both opinions. Thanks for expressing yours, that's what makes our country great!

Quote:
Originally Posted by hairyangryfella View Post
So deceiving people in order to provide funds for your kids makes it all ok?

Enlightening:
1) send to BGS so they slab it - supporting the notion that it is a real card
2) sell it on ebay and don't mention the fact that it was not pack inserted:

"Extremely rare insert of the star! Great candidate for a regrade, as the subgrades are extremely high and seems BGS was overly critical on edges."

Critical on edges perhaps because you cut them yourself??

Like I said, seems very unethical.
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Old 09-11-2013, 05:55 PM   #77 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by kencope View Post
Again, I never had any intention of deceiving anyone. Candidly, I don't appreciate that assertion.

Edges are an issue on this card when cut by Fleer as well. Again, I used the same exact process that Fleer used, even going the length of having a special die made at great expense and having them cut at a machine printing shop using that die.

In my eyes, your assertion that it is not a "real card" is as laughable as you probably think mine is that it is a real card.

From now on, I'll try to give the complete known history of every card I list on eBay. It would go something like this......."produced by XXXXX card company and then shipped to XXXX card shop in Anytown, USA. Pulled by a boy named Brian, who then traded it to his friend Jimmy, who then sold it to XXXX card shop, who then listed it on eBay.

Like I said, I don't know that ANY of my cards were pack inserted unless I pulled them from a pack myself (and I don't open too many packs), so while you may feel this is tongue-in-cheek or a "cop out" it would be ridiculous for me to list in every auction whether a card was pack pulled or not pack pulled. It would open me up to liability on something that I don't control in most circumstances.

The card was not sent to BGS to deceive anyone. It was sent there because I thought it would get a good grade. If I were trying to deceive people, I would agree that I were being unethical, but I'm not. I personally don't find the action of cutting cards from sheets to be unethical. It's a personal preference, but I'm happy with sheet cut cards. I'm one of those weirdos that don't care who a card was cut by. Just my opinion.

You're entitled to your opinion. I'm sorry you feel that way. I understand that there may be others that share your opinion. My overall reputation in this industry is absolutely flawless, but lots of people fall on different sides of the fence on the "sheet cut" argument and I respect both opinions. Thanks for expressing yours, that's what makes our country great!
While you're of course entitled to your opinion and you may choose to enjoy sheet-cut cards, but when you actually cut it yourself and then list it for sale, you have an obligation to reveal that information. If you were cutting it for your own personal enjoyment that's another story. Once you put it out into the market you are tainting that market. Though when someone buys it from you they're not going to reveal the truth either so you've started a chain of deception...
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Old 09-11-2013, 06:46 PM   #78 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kencope View Post
From now on, I'll try to give the complete known history of every card I list on eBay. It would go something like this......."produced by XXXXX card company and then shipped to XXXX card shop in Anytown, USA. Pulled by a boy named Brian, who then traded it to his friend Jimmy, who then sold it to XXXX card shop, who then listed it on eBay.
This is nothing more than hyperbole. Buyers will reasonably and rightly assume that this card was pack pulled. The onus is on you to be upfront with people and let them know this card was never inserted into packs and was cut from a sheet by you. Some people might not care and will buy it anyway (and that's fine), but personally I'd be pissed if I spent good money on this only to find out later that it was never pack inserted. I suspect the only reason you don't freely state this information in you auction is that you know it will hurt the final selling price.

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Like I said, I don't know that ANY of my cards were pack inserted unless I pulled them from a pack myself (and I don't open too many packs), so while you may feel this is tongue-in-cheek or a "cop out" it would be ridiculous for me to list in every auction whether a card was pack pulled or not pack pulled. It would open me up to liability on something that I don't control in most circumstances.
You're right, this is a cop out.
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Old 09-11-2013, 06:49 PM   #79 (permalink)
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Thanks, definitely looks like something funny was going on, although I tend not to worry too much about the "shill" bidding conspirators. Looks to me like at least the bid at $13,000 and the bid at $7800 were legit if we wanted to assume the others were not. Either way, again, I have no specific value in mind.
Why would you? You're in on it.
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Old 09-11-2013, 07:38 PM   #80 (permalink)
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Wow... So you cut that card yourself and get it graded to BGS???

To me that is more than deceiving
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Old 09-11-2013, 08:16 PM   #81 (permalink)
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Can we get SMH to write up a long 90's inserts/jordan schilling post where it can just be stickied on this forum so every PMG or Jordan insert thread doesn't turn into this? It gets old fast.


By the way Ken, kudos to you for not giving a crap. You have a few very nice cards there.
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Old 09-11-2013, 08:18 PM   #82 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by coolz View Post
Wow... So you cut that card yourself and get it graded to BGS???

To me that is more than deceiving

I honestly think it is his right to sell the card however he wishes. The card is labled and graded by the mecca of the sports card world-Beckett. The last sentence was a joke!
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Old 09-11-2013, 09:05 PM   #83 (permalink)
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Wow selling personally bodgy cut card by an indepedant as a pack pulled from factory is a joke , another scum move lol.

And no remorse to fund his children's college these dudes are priceless anything for a buck lmao.

Here ill give you advise , stop buying cardboard and fund your children like a MAN.
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Old 09-11-2013, 09:10 PM   #84 (permalink)
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When it comes to the Jambalaya cards you've sold, you should have mentioned it was from an un-cut sheet personally cut by you, the buyer has the right to know. I understand the argument that not everyone knows the exact origin of every card that is sold, but it doesn't change the fact that you KNEW it was cut, and choose not to disclose it, which to me is very shady. I personally feel it's on the same level of those people who trim cards, and send them to be graded for a better grade.

Also, how many of these Jordans did you cut? You seem to always be re-selling them:

jambalaya from kencope | eBay

I think the right thing to do is send an email to all the buyers you sold these Jambalaya cards to and inform them that they were from an un-cut sheet, and if they want to keep it cool, but if they want to return it, give them a refund.

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Old 09-11-2013, 09:19 PM   #85 (permalink)
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Might as well to fake a MJ auto and print a fake COA. In the end, it is not that hard.
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Old 09-11-2013, 09:22 PM   #86 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nissandriver77 View Post
Wow selling personally bodgy cut card by an indepedant as a pack pulled from factory is a joke , another scum move lol.

And no remorse to fund his children's college these dudes are priceless anything for a buck lmao.

Here ill give you advise , stop buying cardboard and fund your children like a MAN.
No, funding children eduction through cheating is WAY better and faster! This is the best way to teach the kids on how to play around the rule and gain advantage.
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Old 09-11-2013, 09:25 PM   #87 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by jeebus_86 View Post


So you keep selling these? Have you no shame at all? Man... I would really be pissed if I was the buyer, and I don't even care if it was the Van Horn... I would still be pissed.

So one "sells" for $2,850.00 but the other with 34 "legit bids" gets only $1050? (scratching my head).

What's REALLY going on here is the question!..... The bids and that BIN "sale" look very fishy. I've seen people fake high BIN's like that so they could fool people into believing the price, and then sucker them into bidding high. Sometimes those scammers succeed in finding the sucker, and other times the auction gets a ton a FAKE bids, and STILL it does get anywhere near the fake BIN "sale" SMH indeed!

This is not right, and there are many people out there who think they have the real deal, but they do not!
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Old 09-11-2013, 10:51 PM   #88 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by SportsItUpCards View Post
Well no, you actually brought up prices... Comparing it to the shilled PMG prices "paid" so I don't think this was intended as a pickup thread.

By the way, didn't you say in this thread that you're not a collector and just do this for the money? It seems to me like an advertisement thread, not a PC pickup. You started talking about prices, so I then gave my two cents, and a heads up to you thinking that you didn't know about the fake hype with these insert cards. So I guess you already knew. I thought you were a newbie that had no clue about the madness going on with eBay.

Anyway, if it makes you feel better thinking its worth more, or if potential buyers are fooled into believing all the false info, then that's your thing. I honestly could care less. But this hype has ruined our hobby, and now people have followed all across eBay with the fake sales. It's contagious smh

As far as the Jambalaya, I still think, and always will think, that's it's very unethical.
Gio, when are you going to get it in your head that as much as you hate how it happened, the MJ insert market is NEVER going to be what it was pre boom!

The prices have forever changed. You will never see any of the Rare cards at the prices even close to what they use to be...

Sure, most of the cards are hyped up today and from what I have seen, most of them are not actually selling!

I agree with you, there are a heap of fake sales and BS going on, BUT there are a lot of real people out there that are actually paying high prices on some of these cards, myself included...

So YES, we are all aware that people are creating false sale prices, but I think we are all smart enough now to know which cards have actually sold and been paid for to the BS sales that are just hyped...
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Old 09-12-2013, 09:01 AM   #89 (permalink)
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Can this be another one swept under the rug?!.......... smh
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Old 09-12-2013, 09:12 AM   #90 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by SportsItUpCards View Post


So you keep selling these? Have you no shame at all? Man... I would really be pissed if I was the buyer, and I don't even care if it was the Van Horn... I would still be pissed.

So one "sells" for $2,850.00 but the other with 34 "legit bids" gets only $1050? (scratching my head).

What's REALLY going on here is the question!..... The bids and that BIN "sale" look very fishy. I've seen people fake high BIN's like that so they could fool people into believing the price, and then sucker them into bidding high. Sometimes those scammers succeed in finding the sucker, and other times the auction gets a ton a FAKE bids, and STILL it does get anywhere near the fake BIN "sale" SMH indeed!

This is not right, and there are many people out there who think they have the real deal, but they do not!
To be fair, the one that sold for way less was creased. That could have something to do with the discrepancy in price.
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Old 09-12-2013, 09:44 AM   #91 (permalink)
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Your conspiracy theory is absurd and without any merit. As someone else pointed out, the card that sold low had major creasing. I have never, and will never, "shill" an auction.

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Can this be another one swept under the rug?!.......... smh
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Old 09-12-2013, 11:00 AM   #92 (permalink)
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Man, this thread got hot!

Looks like we have topics going on here at once. As someone mentioned above, these 90s MJs are not ever going to sell for the prices they did back int eh day. Realized or not, the "sales" on ebay and around the hobby have brought a ton of attention to these inserts and demand is there for the cards. While the insane $14k+ prices on ebay may be shill, manipulated of faked sales, there is no doubt the real price is way higher than what sportitupcards is constantly debating. There are plenty of MJ collectors that will pay big money for inserts. The debate about them being worthless or $200 cards just needs to stop. GREAT PMG OP!

The sheet cut is def a bigger issue. It may not be different in your mind but many collectors would feel otherwise. If its a rumor without any substantial evidence to back the claim then I could care less and sell however you like. If the seller was the one cutting it from a sheet and did not offer up this information then that is a tad but unethical IMO. I can see both sides but as a buyer, I would like to know this prior to sale. Would it render the card worthless? Not at all. I am sure some collectors do not care at all, much like the OP. BUT, that should be the choice of the buyer.
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Old 09-12-2013, 01:58 PM   #93 (permalink)
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To be fair, the one that sold for way less was creased. That could have something to do with the discrepancy in price.
Yes, lets be fair.... I didn't read about the crease. But the 34 bid activity looks suspect if you ask me.

But doesn't change the fact that he's been selling cards that he himself cut out of an uncut sheet, and not warning people. Surf he would like to sweep that fact under the rug, but truth is, now he's on the radar....
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Old 09-12-2013, 02:09 PM   #94 (permalink)
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SGC and PSA both do NOT make a practice of knowingly grading sheet cut cards.
BGS might knowingly do so, but that doesn't mean it is widely accepted.
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Old 09-12-2013, 02:29 PM   #95 (permalink)
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I have never sold a card and I am a big MJ collector. If I bought that MJ Jambalaya card without knowledge that it was cut by an individual rather than the original card company, and then learned that info after I bought the card I would be seriously pissed. 3K is definitely enough money that I would call an attorney about it.

One of the reasons I haven't bought:
MJ Fleer RC
MJ Star RC
MJ original Jambalaya

Is that it would piss me off so much if I shelled out major cash for those cards, and learned later that something wasn't quite right.
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Old 09-12-2013, 02:38 PM   #96 (permalink)
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I'm not sweeping anything under the rug. You're very good at accusing things of people and situations with absolutely no basis with which to do so. I hope that you're just one of those people that hides behind their computer to be unkind to people, and don't act like this in real life.

Let me be absolutely clear (which I feel I have already done over and over). I spent THOUSANDS of dollars to cut these cards from uncut sheets in the same manner that Fleer did it themselves. I have NEVER denied this fact and have honestly answered in the affirmative to anyone who has asked. I feel absolutely no duty to specifically say that the cards were cut from a sheet by me rather than by Fleer or someone else. I realize you have an issue with that (as some others have expressed that they share and others have expressed that they don't). I don't care that you do. While it seems to make you feel better that there is some big conspiracy going on to pretty much everything in life (your comment about having 34 bids on an auction makes absolutely no sense), I think you would be quite surprised by the amount of product that is out there that was cut from the sheet by someone other than the manufacturer. Beckett graded these KNOWING they were from uncut sheets. I'm very well respected in the industry, have been a senior moderator of one of the largest sports card forums on the web, have flawless eBay feedback and flawless feedback on all other trading sites (thousands and thousands of transactions). I am at peace with my actions and sleep well at night knowing that I am a good father, friend, and business man. None of your accusatory and rude rhetoric is going to change that or change the way in which I conduct business. I'm sorry you have an issue with that, but good god move on.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SportsItUpCards View Post
Yes, lets be fair.... I didn't read about the crease. But the 34 bid activity looks suspect if you ask me.

But doesn't change the fact that he's been selling cards that he himself cut out of an uncut sheet, and not warning people. Surf he would like to sweep that fact under the rug, but truth is, now he's on the radar....
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Old 09-12-2013, 02:41 PM   #97 (permalink)
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You're of course entitled to your opinion, but your attorney would tell you that you have absolutely no basis for a claim. Nothing was misrepresented in any way. If I said "This card came from a pack that I opened in 1997", then you'd have a claim.

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I have never sold a card and I am a big MJ collector. If I bought that MJ Jambalaya card without knowledge that it was cut by an individual rather than the original card company, and then learned that info after I bought the card I would be seriously pissed. 3K is definitely enough money that I would call an attorney about it.

One of the reasons I haven't bought:
MJ Fleer RC
MJ Star RC
MJ original Jambalaya

Is that it would piss me off so much if I shelled out major cash for those cards, and learned later that something wasn't quite right.
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Old 09-12-2013, 02:54 PM   #98 (permalink)
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Come on man lets get real here! I'm a great father.... But what does that have to do with anything? So if I cut cards from cheap(cost) uncut sheets, and passed them off as the normal card(BGS graded, and you not mentioning it, makes people assume they're getting the real deal), that it would be ok? Absolutely not! This is a big part of why this hobby has been going downhill for the past 6 years or so. I can't help to wonder that if you're going THIS, then what else are you involved with?

Yesterday I receive one pm about you, and the person wanted to remain anonymous, so I asked him to type up whatever he wanted me to warn people about.... Too lazy myself to waste any more of my time. So it read....

"You can say something along the lines of you got a PM from someone who wants to remain anonymous that Ken has done this on sales before where he conveniently "forgets" things at the time of sale and then poorly patches the situation... I was on the brink of recalling the money on paypal but got lucky and was able to dump the set locally or I would have."
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Old 09-12-2013, 03:14 PM   #99 (permalink)
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Why not list the fact it was cut from a factory sheet in the same manner Fleer would have in the description for the auction. Let the market determine the price and the buyer decide if he/she cares that is sheet cut?

I don't think Ken is villain seeing as how he openly admits that these are cut. It seems to me he has his own feelings on the matter. My only issue is if he openly admits some don't share this opinion and some would be upset to learn this after the fact, why not be completely transparent from the jump? Would save any potential headaches.
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Old 09-12-2013, 03:20 PM   #100 (permalink)
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I believe the person you're talking about (who I will let remain anonymous) is someone who wasted hours and hours of my time to put together some vintage sets for him from my LCS owner (for which I received no compensation) and then tried to back out of an agreed to deal by lowering a price that he had already committed to.

Then after the debacle, tried to "make up" with me because he wanted access to the LCS owner's cards again. I kindly but firmly denied to do future business with him (the LCS owner said he didn't want to deal with him either) and moved on.

If you're trying to smear my reputation (which would be the only reason for your comment) I'd suggest you start with a more pertinent situation and more credible ally.

I am "passing them off" as 1997-98 Skybox Jambalayas. The MJ is a BGS 8.5. That's what they are.

You have over 10,000 posts, and only 20 trades. It's clear you have a lot of time to waste. If you didn't, you would have stopped with your juvenile and unsupported comments in this thread a long time ago.

Here is another "sheet cut" card for you to go on a crusade about:

1979 OPC Hockey 18 Wayne Gretzky Rookie Card BVG 8 5 O Pee Chee | eBay

Have fun.


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Originally Posted by SportsItUpCards View Post
Come on man lets get real here! I'm a great father.... But what does that have to do with anything? So if I cut cards from cheap(cost) uncut sheets, and passed them off as the normal card(BGS graded, and you not mentioning it, makes people assume they're getting the real deal), that it would be ok? Absolutely not! This is a big part of why this hobby has been going downhill for the past 6 years or so. I can't help to wonder that if you're going THIS, then what else are you involved with?

Yesterday I receive one pm about you, and the person wanted to remain anonymous, so I asked him to type up whatever he wanted me to warn people about.... Too lazy myself to waste any more of my time. So it read....

"You can say something along the lines of you got a PM from someone who wants to remain anonymous that Ken has done this on sales before where he conveniently "forgets" things at the time of sale and then poorly patches the situation... I was on the brink of recalling the money on paypal but got lucky and was able to dump the set locally or I would have."
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