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Old 09-12-2013, 03:27 PM   #101 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by kencope View Post
You're of course entitled to your opinion, but your attorney would tell you that you have absolutely no basis for a claim. Nothing was misrepresented in any way. If I said "This card came from a pack that I opened in 1997", then you'd have a claim.
Some failings have to be affirmatively disclosed. If someone was murdered in your house, and you wanted to sell your house, you'd have to disclose the fact that someone was murdered in it. Because some people don't want to buy a house that had a person murdered in it. If you don't disclose a material failing (or what some may consider a material failing), at best you are playing with fire.

I'm not saying you are a bad guy or anything, but I would want my money back and would return the card if I found out it was cut. If I bought a house and later found out that there was some homicide in it that nobody told me about, I would want some form of compensation because that would drastically reduce the value.

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Old 09-12-2013, 03:29 PM   #102 (permalink)
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I offer a money back guarantee for anyone unsatisfied with what they receive. My problem with doing what you suggest, is that I have no way of knowing what cards I own (something like the Gretzky rookie that I mentioned above - note I do not own that card) were cut from a sheet or not. I own about 50 Elway rookies, some may be sheet cut, most are probably not. While I certainly understand that my actions in the sale of these Jambalaya cards seem to be a slippery slope, it is also a very slippery slope for me to provide details at that level on some cards but not others, most of which I don't have a valid record of ownership since inception. I'm ok with the potential headaches, but appreciate your opinion and the professional manner in which you convey it.


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Originally Posted by GC1980 View Post
Why not list the fact it was cut from a factory sheet in the same manner Fleer would have in the description for the auction. Let the market determine the price and the buyer decide if he/she cares that is sheet cut?

I don't think Ken is villain seeing as how he openly admits that these are cut. It seems to me he has his own feelings on the matter. My only issue is if he openly admits some don't share this opinion and some would be upset to learn this after the fact, why not be completely transparent from the jump? Would save any potential headaches.
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Old 09-12-2013, 03:34 PM   #103 (permalink)
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I've carried real estate licences in Indiana, California, and Colorado. The disclosure you're speaking of varies from state to state and is governed by the state RE commission. It's not a requirement in Kansas, for instance.

I know of no such disclosure that would govern this situation.

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Some failings have to be affirmatively disclosed. If someone was murdered in your house, and you wanted to sell your house, you'd have to disclose the fact that someone was murdered in it. Because some people don't want to buy a house that had a person murdered in it. If you don't disclose a material failing (or you what some may consider a material failing), at best your are playing with fire.
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Old 09-12-2013, 03:37 PM   #104 (permalink)
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You're of course entitled to your opinion, but your attorney would tell you that you have absolutely no basis for a claim. Nothing was misrepresented in any way. If I said "This card came from a pack that I opened in 1997", then you'd have a claim.


Do you really believe that only affirmative misrepresentations are grounds for winning a claim? Surely you do not.
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Old 09-12-2013, 03:44 PM   #105 (permalink)
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Nice MJ, definitely one of top 10-15 MJ 90s cards there, excluding the 1/1s. Thank you for sharing and above discussions.

Let me ask this question. Is it ok in your opinion that a person sheetcuts a masterpiece sheet without masterpiece stamp, spend "thousands of dollars" on mimicking and creating such a stamp and stamping onto those cards, and pass them off as legit pack-pulled without full disclosure? Your argument would still be that yourself spend thousands of dollars creating the stamps, and they are in almost the same way as how the Fleer did it, and because you don't know whether the cards you bought from other sellers might arise this way and you don't need to disclose anything there, you feel no obligation to state you sheetcut and stamp it. This is just a serial numbered/masterpiece version of your unnumbered Jambalaya examples.

If the above act is ok, then how about trim off to make cards look flawless and grade them to back up as you gained the supports by so called industry leading experts' evaluation.

Then how about producing the cards from scratch, after all Fleer also create papers from paper and some machine, which you can also do after spending no small amount of money on it.

I'm really interested how you draw a line here. Which is ok and which is not ethic in your book. Sheetcut a diecut shaped cards isn't much different from sheetcuting and stamping, or trimming at all to me.

IMHO, what you did is in the same category of above three cases of increasing degrees.

The very reason not to disclose the fact you doctored sheets to create cards does not center on your way of justification, but on the fact that no educated buyers will buy them let alone buy them at market price of legit counterparts.

There might be buyers for uncut sheet for PC or unnumbered cards for oddball items, but I doubt there is any buyer at all who is at peace and totally fine with spending hard-earned money at market price of pack-pulled legit cards on those sheetcut cards knowingly. We can do a poll if you want. Some poll people feel free to set it up.

A masterpiece sheet of stars might cost a two digits of low three digits, but can sell significantly higher if sheetcut and stamped to look legit.

Another example of 98-99 Hoops starting five. This issue used to be top 10 90s cards, but now is totally destroyed, because people stamp fake foil stamp onto the .99 base cards to a fairly high degree of accuracy but still detectable so far.

Finally, I really appreciate you take time to address each question, and openly admit you doctor on those sheets to create those cards. We haven't seen any card doctor coming forth before, and definitely would like to discuss more openly about those issues and how they view things and how they feel deep inside.

In my opinion, it's not right to doctor cards and resell without making it obvious to potential buyers. And after many change of hands, no one can track down or tell whether those cards are packpulled in original state or doctored manually later. This will only create uneasy from buyers about those cards, and might eventually bring down the market of those similar cards alltogether. This is why I post about this and state my opinion, because I care about those cards and their well-being in the future.
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Old 09-12-2013, 03:47 PM   #106 (permalink)
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Of course not, but my feeling is that there are no other reasons that would be sufficient to justify relief.
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Do you really believe that only affirmative misrepresentations are grounds for winning a claim? Surely you do not.
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Old 09-12-2013, 03:53 PM   #107 (permalink)
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OP obviously knows what he is doing and why is in not disclosing the fact that it is cut from the sheet in his auction. Its the same reason he compared the shilled sale of an original MJ PMG (a totally different card) to his pmg in a "show and tell" thread in the BST section, along with many other statements of arrogance...

....Tom Brady said it best. OP is a "turd"
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Old 09-12-2013, 03:56 PM   #108 (permalink)
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Of course not, but my feeling is that there are no other reasons that would be sufficient to justify relief.
I suspect there may be some state fraud/unfair competition statutes that are broader than your feelings (especially if you are not picky about which states you are selling/shipping to).
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Old 09-12-2013, 03:58 PM   #109 (permalink)
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Appreciate your input. My answer to all of your questions is "no". I see those situations as much more egregious, dishonest, and deliberately deceptive.

I am a buyer who is ok with spending hard-earned money on sheet-cut cards. I stated that earlier. I understand this may not be the common opinion, but it is mine. Conducting a poll will have no effect.

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Nice MJ, definitely one of top 10-15 MJ 90s cards there, excluding the 1/1s. Thank you for sharing and above discussions.

Let me ask this question. Is it ok in your opinion that a person sheetcuts a masterpiece sheet without masterpiece stamp, spend "thousands of dollars" on mimicking and creating such a stamp and stamping onto those cards, and pass them off as legit pack-pulled without full disclosure? Your argument would still be that yourself spend thousands of dollars creating the stamps, and they are in almost the same way as how the Fleer did it, and because you don't know whether the cards you bought from other sellers might arise this way and you don't need to disclose anything there, you feel no obligation to state you sheetcut and stamp it. This is just a serial numbered/masterpiece version of your unnumbered Jambalaya examples.

If the above act is ok, then how about trim off to make cards look flawless and grade them to back up as you gained the supports by so called industry leading experts' evaluation.

Then how about producing the cards from scratch, after all Fleer also create papers from paper and some machine, which you can also do after spending no small amount of money on it.

I'm really interested how you draw a line here. Which is ok and which is not ethic in your book. Sheetcut a diecut shaped cards isn't much different from sheetcuting and stamping, or trimming at all to me.

IMHO, what you did is in the same category of above three cases of increasing degrees.

The very reason not to disclose the fact you doctored sheets to create cards does not center on your way of justification, but on the fact that no educated buyers will buy them let alone buy them at market price of legit counterparts.

There might be buyers for uncut sheet for PC or unnumbered cards for oddball items, but I doubt there is any buyer at all who is at peace and totally fine with spending hard-earned money at market price of pack-pulled legit cards on those sheetcut cards knowingly. We can do a poll if you want. Some poll people feel free to set it up.

A masterpiece sheet of stars might cost a two digits of low three digits, but can sell significantly higher if sheetcut and stamped to look legit.

Another example of 98-99 Hoops starting five. This issue used to be top 10 90s cards, but now is totally destroyed, because people stamp fake foil stamp onto the .99 base cards to a fairly high degree of accuracy but still detectable so far.

Finally, I really appreciate you take time to address each question, and openly admit you doctor on those sheets to create those cards. We haven't seen any card doctor coming forth before, and definitely would like to discuss more openly about those issues and how they view things and how they feel deep inside.

In my opinion, it's not right to doctor cards and resell without making it obvious to potential buyers. And after many change of hands, no one can track down or tell whether those cards are packpulled in original state or doctored manually later. This will only create uneasy from buyers about those cards, and might eventually bring down the market of those similar cards alltogether. This is why I post about this and state my opinion, because I care about those cards and their well-being in the future.
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Old 09-12-2013, 03:58 PM   #110 (permalink)
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So becaue ken cut it to regular specifications instead of jose who works for a card company, it is no longer worth anything?
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Old 09-12-2013, 04:00 PM   #111 (permalink)
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A personal attack.........original, informative, and an excellent contribution to the discussion.

As an aside, I honestly had no idea that card was "shilled" until someone posted the details of the bid history. I'm not one that looks at such things, and I'm not as familiar with 90s inserts as some of you on here are. When posted, I thought it was a valid sale. I received an eBay offer of $6,000 for the PMG gold last night, which I countered.

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OP obviously knows what he is doing and why is in not disclosing the fact that it is cut from the sheet in his auction. Its the same reason he compared the shilled sale of an original MJ PMG (a totally different card) to his pmg in a "show and tell" thread in the BST section, along with many other statements of arrogance...

....Tom Brady said it best. OP is a "turd"

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Old 09-12-2013, 04:04 PM   #112 (permalink)
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A personal attack.........original, informative, and an excellent contribution to the discussion.
Only if you would provide buyers with the information in your listings.

Did you sell any others from the sheet? Do you think they bought it under the impression they were buying pack pulled or sheet cut cards?

Im sure an insert guy can answer the following question...

What is worth more-a pack pulled or after market sheet cut?
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Old 09-12-2013, 04:06 PM   #113 (permalink)
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I offer a money back guarantee for anyone unsatisfied with what they receive. My problem with doing what you suggest, is that I have no way of knowing what cards I own (something like the Gretzky rookie that I mentioned above - note I do not own that card) were cut from a sheet or not. I own about 50 Elway rookies, some may be sheet cut, most are probably not. While I certainly understand that my actions in the sale of these Jambalaya cards seem to be a slippery slope, it is also a very slippery slope for me to provide details at that level on some cards but not others, most of which I don't have a valid record of ownership since inception. I'm ok with the potential headaches, but appreciate your opinion and the professional manner in which you convey it.
Some people here can still have a healthy, intelligent and adult debate

Again, clearly you are open to disclosing the truth behind this card and I can see arguments on both side of the coin. Every collector has a different opinion. I for one don't have a huge beef with the cutting issue on a modern card. I would prefer pack pulled if paying full price, thus my opinion to have that stated up front. At a slightly lower price, a graded, authentic sheet cut card wouldn't be a bad alternative. These cards derive their value from their limited print run, not so much their condition sensitivity from what I gather. As i have said in many posts, I prefer vintage and 80s so that's my POV. That said, the Gretzky would be a much bigger issue to me. A big factor in that cards premium pricing is condition and the fact that not many are in primo shape since 1979. A sheet cut card gives it an unfair advantage there.

Think of it this way, Ken has never once claimed these are pack pulled. Is it a moral grey area to not disclose? Sure. He is here on one of the most trafficked forums in the hobby openly admitting its cut from a sheet. He could easily have been left raw and completely undisclosed or not copped to it being sheet cut seeing as it is slabbed.

While some, myself included, don't agree with not labeling it cut in the auction header, its not like he isn't offering a money back guarantee. Anyone willing to drop $3500 on a card can easily track that this is sheet cut with a little homework. I know it's awfully cynical but Caveat Emptor as they say.
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Old 09-12-2013, 04:06 PM   #114 (permalink)
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Did you sell any others from the sheet? Do you think they bought it under the impression they were buying pack pulled or sheet cut cards?
What difference does it make? If he had them cut the exact same way they would have, then really what difference does it make?
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Old 09-12-2013, 04:08 PM   #115 (permalink)
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What difference does it make? If he had them cut the exact same way they would have, then really what difference does it make?
In the eyes of insert people...a lot
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Old 09-12-2013, 04:09 PM   #116 (permalink)
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In the eyes of insert people...a lot
You didn't really answer my question. If the card is cut correctly and is basically the same as a pack pulled, what is the difference?
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Old 09-12-2013, 04:12 PM   #117 (permalink)
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You didn't really answer my question. If the card is cut correctly and is basically the same as a pack pulled, what is the difference?
If I sell you an Iphone 5s made by aple to the same specifications as an Iphone 5s made by apple do you see a difference? Clearly you do. Its the same situation here.


Ken, I personally would disclose and in my opinion there basic principles that justify relief. Again I understand your view and mine is just my own opinion.
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Old 09-12-2013, 04:13 PM   #118 (permalink)
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If I sell you an Iphone 5s made by aple to the same specifications as an Iphone 5s made by apple do you see a difference? Clearly you do. Its the same situation here.
Wait, so the cards he is selling were made by a different company and not the company that makes them and cuts them?
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Old 09-12-2013, 04:16 PM   #119 (permalink)
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Wait, so the cards he is selling were made by a different company and not the company that makes them and cuts them?
I should have inserted the word "assembled" somewhere in my hypothetical. My mistake. One can claim they used the same quality control but that does not make them originals. Most people refer to these as knock-offs.
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Old 09-12-2013, 04:16 PM   #120 (permalink)
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You didn't really answer my question. If the card is cut correctly and is basically the same as a pack pulled, what is the difference?
One thing - these were NOT meant for release. So I would think any numbered card is possibly a duplicate. Or it might mean the odds for rarer inserts are thrown off.

And again, PSA and SGC opt to not consciously grade sheet cut cards. I would have a big problem with not being told they were sheet cut, and subbing it (for whatever reason) and having it come back as altered/trimmed.

To assume buyers should not have a problem with it (and to not disclose because of that) is a horrible assumption.
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Old 09-12-2013, 04:17 PM   #121 (permalink)
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If I sell you an Iphone 5s made by aple to the same specifications as an Iphone 5s made by apple do you see a difference? Clearly you do. Its the same situation here.


Ken, I personally would disclose and in my opinion there basic principles that justify relief. Again I understand your view and mine is just my own opinion.
I am firmly in the camp that is should be disclosed but I don't think this is a valid argument. The cards were still printed by Fleer and are 100% real. They are cut from a sheet just like the actual pack pulled cards were. They were not counterfeited to exact specs like your example. The fact that so many look down on it makes me think the card should be valued less that the insert but just how much is something the market should dictate.

To play devil's advocate, how many uncut sheets of Jambalayas do you think are out there? I have not seen too many. Makes me think this one and any others out there will not be flooding the market. This goes to the earlier post about stamping 1 of 1 masterpieces. Those derive value because they are 1 of 1. This card does not. Unless it comes to light there are many sheets out there, it will not dilude the market.
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Old 09-12-2013, 04:20 PM   #122 (permalink)
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I am firmly in the camp that is should be disclosed but I don't think this is a valid argument. The cards were still printed by Fleer and are 100% real. They are cut from a sheet just like the actual pack pulled cards were. They were not counterfeited to exact specs like your example. The fact that so many look down on it makes me think the card should be valued less that the insert but just how much is something the market should dictate.

To play devil's advocate, how many uncut sheets of Jambalayas do you think are out there? I have not seen too many. Makes me think this one and any others out there will not be flooding the market. This goes to the earlier post about stamping 1 of 1 masterpieces. Those derive value because they are 1 of 1. This card does not. Unless it comes to light there are many sheets out there, it will not dilude the market.
My hypothetical was to show that apple never completed the process of the end product, fleer here never completed the end product. A portion of the process was completed by fleer with Ken completing the end result.
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Old 09-12-2013, 04:30 PM   #123 (permalink)
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Yes, I did. Never anything to hide on my part.
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Beckett specifically knew that before grading it. They don't care, and neither do I. In their eyes, and my eyes, it's the same card. I spent major money to use the exact same process as was originally used so as not to compromise the integrity of the card.

Given your other comments, I'm sure you will spend 10-20 posts to demean sheet-cut cards, but I am one of the people who are of the opinion that there is no difference between a card that was cut at the factory at origination or kept in its uncut state and then cut at a later date. The rarity of the card is the same in both uncut or cut form (and in my opinion, its actually a little more rare to find an uncut sheet that has survived than it is a single). People argue ad nausea about this issue, but if you can find me an uncut sheet of 3rd series '52 Topps I'm all over it! That's my opinion, you're obviously entitled to your own, as is everyone else.
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Thanks for the congratulations.

Regarding your "ashamed of myself" comment, I disagree, but you're entitled to your opinion. This is not a hobby for me, it's a side business which funds my children's college education. To me, that is the "right reason".

Please enlighten me on what I have done that is "passing it off as a real pack-pulled one". Have I said it was pack pulled anywhere? No. Did I lie when asked if I had cut it from an uncut sheet? No. Do any of you know what cards you own were "pack pulled" unless you personally pulled it from a pack yourself? No.
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Again, I never had any intention of deceiving anyone. Candidly, I don't appreciate that assertion.

Edges are an issue on this card when cut by Fleer as well. Again, I used the same exact process that Fleer used, even going the length of having a special die made at great expense and having them cut at a machine printing shop using that die.

In my eyes, your assertion that it is not a "real card" is as laughable as you probably think mine is that it is a real card.

From now on, I'll try to give the complete known history of every card I list on eBay. It would go something like this......."produced by XXXXX card company and then shipped to XXXX card shop in Anytown, USA. Pulled by a boy named Brian, who then traded it to his friend Jimmy, who then sold it to XXXX card shop, who then listed it on eBay.

Like I said, I don't know that ANY of my cards were pack inserted unless I pulled them from a pack myself (and I don't open too many packs), so while you may feel this is tongue-in-cheek or a "cop out" it would be ridiculous for me to list in every auction whether a card was pack pulled or not pack pulled. It would open me up to liability on something that I don't control in most circumstances.

The card was not sent to BGS to deceive anyone. It was sent there because I thought it would get a good grade. If I were trying to deceive people, I would agree that I were being unethical, but I'm not. I personally don't find the action of cutting cards from sheets to be unethical. It's a personal preference, but I'm happy with sheet cut cards. I'm one of those weirdos that don't care who a card was cut by. Just my opinion.

You're entitled to your opinion. I'm sorry you feel that way. I understand that there may be others that share your opinion. My overall reputation in this industry is absolutely flawless, but lots of people fall on different sides of the fence on the "sheet cut" argument and I respect both opinions. Thanks for expressing yours, that's what makes our country great!
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I'm not sweeping anything under the rug. You're very good at accusing things of people and situations with absolutely no basis with which to do so. I hope that you're just one of those people that hides behind their computer to be unkind to people, and don't act like this in real life.

Let me be absolutely clear (which I feel I have already done over and over). I spent THOUSANDS of dollars to cut these cards from uncut sheets in the same manner that Fleer did it themselves. I have NEVER denied this fact and have honestly answered in the affirmative to anyone who has asked. I feel absolutely no duty to specifically say that the cards were cut from a sheet by me rather than by Fleer or someone else. I realize you have an issue with that (as some others have expressed that they share and others have expressed that they don't). I don't care that you do. While it seems to make you feel better that there is some big conspiracy going on to pretty much everything in life (your comment about having 34 bids on an auction makes absolutely no sense), I think you would be quite surprised by the amount of product that is out there that was cut from the sheet by someone other than the manufacturer. Beckett graded these KNOWING they were from uncut sheets. I'm very well respected in the industry, have been a senior moderator of one of the largest sports card forums on the web, have flawless eBay feedback and flawless feedback on all other trading sites (thousands and thousands of transactions). I am at peace with my actions and sleep well at night knowing that I am a good father, friend, and business man. None of your accusatory and rude rhetoric is going to change that or change the way in which I conduct business. I'm sorry you have an issue with that, but good god move on.
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You're of course entitled to your opinion, but your attorney would tell you that you have absolutely no basis for a claim. Nothing was misrepresented in any way. If I said "This card came from a pack that I opened in 1997", then you'd have a claim.
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Originally Posted by kencope View Post
I believe the person you're talking about (who I will let remain anonymous) is someone who wasted hours and hours of my time to put together some vintage sets for him from my LCS owner (for which I received no compensation) and then tried to back out of an agreed to deal by lowering a price that he had already committed to.

Then after the debacle, tried to "make up" with me because he wanted access to the LCS owner's cards again. I kindly but firmly denied to do future business with him (the LCS owner said he didn't want to deal with him either) and moved on.

If you're trying to smear my reputation (which would be the only reason for your comment) I'd suggest you start with a more pertinent situation and more credible ally.

I am "passing them off" as 1997-98 Skybox Jambalayas. The MJ is a BGS 8.5. That's what they are.

You have over 10,000 posts, and only 20 trades. It's clear you have a lot of time to waste. If you didn't, you would have stopped with your juvenile and unsupported comments in this thread a long time ago.

Here is another "sheet cut" card for you to go on a crusade about:

1979 OPC Hockey 18 Wayne Gretzky Rookie Card BVG 8 5 O Pee Chee | eBay

Have fun.
Quote:
Originally Posted by kencope View Post
I offer a money back guarantee for anyone unsatisfied with what they receive. My problem with doing what you suggest, is that I have no way of knowing what cards I own (something like the Gretzky rookie that I mentioned above - note I do not own that card) were cut from a sheet or not. I own about 50 Elway rookies, some may be sheet cut, most are probably not. While I certainly understand that my actions in the sale of these Jambalaya cards seem to be a slippery slope, it is also a very slippery slope for me to provide details at that level on some cards but not others, most of which I don't have a valid record of ownership since inception. I'm ok with the potential headaches, but appreciate your opinion and the professional manner in which you convey it.
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Old 09-12-2013, 04:33 PM   #124 (permalink)
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Ken, I appreciate you being honest and continuing to answer questions here. However I do have an issue with this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by kencope View Post
Appreciate your input. My answer to all of your questions is "no". I see those situations as much more egregious, dishonest, and deliberately deceptive.

I am a buyer who is ok with spending hard-earned money on sheet-cut cards. I stated that earlier. I understand this may not be the common opinion, but it is mine. Conducting a poll will have no effect.
Just because YOU are comfortable doing so, that doesn't mean any/everyone else is. Shouldn't they have a fair chance to decide that? By selling it graded by BGS and not stating where YOU KNOW it is from, you are misleading people into thinking it's a genuine pack-pulled card. People should have the choice of purchasing knowing the true story of the card, which you conveniently decline to describe.
I really struggle to see how you feel this is perfectly acceptable practice.
Also previously you referred to being a moderator on a forum to 'enhance' your reputation. If that forum is Sportscardforum, that has little credibility as there are plenty of people on here who have been screwed over by mods on that forum...
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Old 09-12-2013, 04:35 PM   #125 (permalink)
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Correct. Here's another example for you. Today I called Topps about a redemption that had not been fulfilled (2012 TTT 6-HOF QB Auto). They're still waiting on some stickers that haven't been signed. I was offered a replacement: a 2012 Andrew Luck Topps Chrome SSP Auto. This is a card that was produced, but not inserted into packs. Still part of the general population of those produced by Topps, but never put into a pack. All companies have a very limited stock of cards that are produced and don't make it into packs. They're still part of the general population (a very small %), that eventually always make it out to the public at some point or another, and were produced so that they would at some point be available to the public. Is the card I was offered not "legit" or "real" because it wasn't put into a pack in a box at your LCS? Should I have been offended that I was offered this card that is clearly worthless because it didn't come from a pack?

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Originally Posted by GC1980 View Post
I am firmly in the camp that is should be disclosed but I don't think this is a valid argument. The cards were still printed by Fleer and are 100% real. They are cut from a sheet just like the actual pack pulled cards were. They were not counterfeited to exact specs like your example. The fact that so many look down on it makes me think the card should be valued less that the insert but just how much is something the market should dictate.

To play devil's advocate, how many uncut sheets of Jambalayas do you think are out there? I have not seen too many. Makes me think this one and any others out there will not be flooding the market. This goes to the earlier post about stamping 1 of 1 masterpieces. Those derive value because they are 1 of 1. This card does not. Unless it comes to light there are many sheets out there, it will not dilude the market.

Last edited by kencope; 09-12-2013 at 04:38 PM.
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