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Old 09-13-2013, 11:57 PM   #26 (permalink)
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I ditto this question. Someone please explain...
Uncut are backdoored or given away. Was not supposed to hit the market. Unless it is from the box. They are made from the same year. But was kept and now they are entering the market. Selling them is right but some people cutting them off to pas as the real deal. Which is bad
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Old 09-14-2013, 12:04 AM   #27 (permalink)
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So because it is hard to prove if a card is sheet cut, you are ok with it?
If BGS can't tell, than neither can I.

I think the problem here is with #1 Fleer for being just like Scoreboard and keeping uncut sheets WAAAAYYYYY TOO LONG. They rightly may have kept some around until after a couple years had passed just incase someone pulled a damaged card, and then they should have destroyed them, but like scoreboard did with there cards that were NOT autographed yet said "congratulations, blah blah blah" on the back that got out to the pulic in the last couple years, these SHOULD have been destroyed, but because the company did not have foresight, character, or perhaps an understanding of what makes cards cool, they did not.

And possibly #2 Beckett. I've seen how they can tell that some cards are trimmed, and it's not just because the cards are too small. I would think that unless these cards were cut with a very similar edge as the originals BGS should be able to tell.

But really, I'm just mad at Fleer. They should have taken action to ensure this would not happened and they failed, just as they did in business.
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Old 09-14-2013, 12:08 AM   #28 (permalink)
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So areyou okwith exquisite number pieces uncut sheet. Cutting them up. Putting up patches and autos and getting slabbed to sell it right?
I think you know that's different. Fake patches and autos are not the same as simply cutting and grading. Again, this was going to happen unless something was put in place to ensure it would not. Fleer made the mistake.

To expect people not to do something as easy as cut and grade to make some money is insanity.... whether you feel it to be morally wrong or not is not the issue... it's going to happen, it is worth the same as a pack inserted one, and unfortunately there's nothing you can do about it... I'm just glad I don't own any of these, because they are about to take a hit.
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Old 09-14-2013, 12:10 AM   #29 (permalink)
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A mod on other sites doing this? Goddd. What a character. And yall thought only overseas guys does something like this. Think again!

Uncut is uncut no matter it is not packpulled. And never ever cannot be passed as the real deal.


retired staff...he isn't currently on the mod team..atleast his badge under his name their states "retired mod team" or something to that effect...either way its a scum bag thing to do
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Old 09-14-2013, 12:14 AM   #30 (permalink)
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I think you know that's different. Fake patches and autos are not the same as simply cutting and grading. Again, this was going to happen unless something was put in place to ensure it would not. Fleer made the mistake.

To expect people not to do something as easy as cut and grade to make some money is insanity.... whether you feel it to be morally wrong or not is not the issue... it's going to happen, it is worth the same as a pack inserted one, and unfortunately there's nothing you can do about it... I'm just glad I don't own any of these, because they are about to take a hit.
You honestly think if the seller disclosed all info on these cards they would sell for the same as the pack inserted ones? Let me tell you with confidence that they wouldn't.
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Old 09-14-2013, 12:20 AM   #31 (permalink)
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I think you know that's different. Fake patches and autos are not the same as simply cutting and grading. Again, this was going to happen unless something was put in place to ensure it would not. Fleer made the mistake.

To expect people not to do something as easy as cut and grade to make some money is insanity.... whether you feel it to be morally wrong or not is not the issue... it's going to happen, it is worth the same as a pack inserted one, and unfortunately there's nothing you can do about it... I'm just glad I don't own any of these, because they are about to take a hit.
So you say they are worth the same as the pack inserted ones, but then you say they're going to take a hit? why?! Aren't they worth the same anyway, and people don't care, right? So why would they take a hit? Smh

It's a 1,000 times worst than trimming cards.... Maybe. It's just like taking an uncut sheet of 1986-87 Fleer and cutting s Jordan a perfect 10 and then try and fool one if the grading companies and get it slabed a Gem, of even Pristine!

So now you have people who love and collect those Fleer cards who will be fooled thinking wow, this card survived all these years and STILL getting a nice grade, of even in Mint condition, as kencope currently has for Jambalayas. But little do these people know they came from sheets, so of course they can come back in higher grade.

I stopped collecting this set called 1989 Jazz Old Home bread cards, as someone bought a ton of uncut sheets, cut them, and now selling the cards. With NO commonly found yellow spotting, because they were found in bread bags. So now I have no clue when a card is in good condition, of just some crap cut from a sheet. I, along with most collectors, would rather have the real deal.

Please donnot tell me an apple is a banana... Thanks.
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Old 09-14-2013, 12:23 AM   #32 (permalink)
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it baffles me that anyone could say this is ok. if this is ok, it opens the door of: someone has the means/equipment to print a card exactly like a card company did, even have the same materials and equipment and making those cards and selling them off as the real pack issued stuff. this is just deceitful. i see no problem aquiring an uncut sheet, cutting the cards, having them graded, and selling them. there should be a disclaimer in the graded slab, and the grader should be told this is not a pack issued card, it was from a manufacturer uncut sheet, and any potential buyer should be made aware this is not a pack pulled card but from an uncut sheet.
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Old 09-14-2013, 12:31 AM   #33 (permalink)
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it baffles me that anyone could say this is ok. if this is ok, it opens the door of: someone has the means/equipment to print a card exactly like a card company did, even have the same materials and equipment and making those cards and selling them off as the real pack issued stuff. this is just deceitful. i see no problem aquiring an uncut sheet, cutting the cards, having them graded, and selling them. there should be a disclaimer in the graded slab, and the grader should be told this is not a pack issued card, it was from a manufacturer uncut sheet, and any potential buyer should be made aware this is not a pack pulled card but from an uncut sheet.
Yeah, Beckett should have been warned.... He says he did, but I call bs! Some many complaints from customers of his, like coloring cards with markers to make them appear in better shape, messed around with vintage packs, and tge list goes on.

Here is what Beckett would have done if warned by him.... But pretty sure he had this all planned out trying to scam people.

http://item.mobileweb.ebay.com/viewi...d=200955979512
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Old 09-14-2013, 12:36 AM   #34 (permalink)
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So you say they are worth the same as the pack inserted ones, but then you say they're going to take a hit? why?! Aren't they worth the same anyway, and people don't care, right? So why would they take a hit? Smh

It's a 1,000 times worst than trimming cards.... Maybe. It's just like taking an uncut sheet of 1986-87 Fleer and cutting s Jordan a perfect 10 and then try and fool one if the grading companies and get it slabed a Gem, of even Pristine!

So now you have people who love and collect those Fleer cards who will be fooled thinking wow, this card survived all these years and STILL getting a nice grade, of even in Mint condition, as kencope currently has for Jambalayas. But little do these people know they came from sheets, so of course they can come back in higher grade.

I stopped collecting this set called 1989 Jazz Old Home bread cards, as someone bought a ton of uncut sheets, cut them, and now selling the cards. With NO commonly found yellow spotting, because they were found in bread bags. So now I have no clue when a card is in good condition, of just some crap cut from a sheet. I, along with most collectors, would rather have the real deal.

Please donnot tell me an apple is a banana... Thanks.

I always enjoy your posts. They're always well thought out, and I nearly always agree w you. So let me be clear here about how I feel about this.

"So you say they are worth the same as the pack inserted ones, but then you say they're going to take a hit?"

Once they are graded by BGS.... they are worth the same as the other ones. Yes, that's true. Because there's no way to tell except in this case because of your awesome detective work. Once the cards are once removed from this seller they won't be easily tracable anymore and will be like any other jambalaya. But yes, the prices of ALL of these are going to decrease. Because it is 100% impossible to tell which were pack inserted and which were not.

I do not agree that this is worse than trimming cards at all. Trimming cards gives the buyer a false impression of the condition of the card. It's intentionally deceitful. I don't think this is intentionally deceitful. He cut the cards and had the #1 authority grade them. That's it. They're real. And nothing in the hobby says that the time of cutting is the deciding factor of legitimacy.

I love the Old home cards, though I think they're 88, right? I'm a Utah guy who grew up in the 80's and 90's, so I actually remember getting those out of the bread! And if you want a PSA 10, you're only going to get it out of one that was not in the bread!
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Old 09-14-2013, 01:53 AM   #35 (permalink)
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Would love to hear from him. Not that it would matter.
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Old 09-14-2013, 02:01 AM   #36 (permalink)
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How can you say trimming is worse???? You lost all creditability with this- 'If BGS can't tell, than neither can I'.. You can't be that gullible? If you agree that the prices will decrease, how is it good for the hobby? These cards didn't come from a pack and you can't defend that cutting up an Exquisite sheet is different... If you had a sheet of just GU patch cards you could buy a random player's GU jersey and cut it up into the card and make every card 6/15... It would all be the same to anyone but yet to you that's different than duplicating an Jordan insert since it's in a BGS case... I'm glad this was brought up because these 5k Jordan inserts needs to be understood, while it keeps feeding the scammers trying to make a buck
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Old 09-14-2013, 02:03 AM   #37 (permalink)
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How do we know any card came from a pack and not cut from a sheet, especially any fleer card from back around that time after bankrupt?

There are a few things we as collectors are gonna half to live with if we want to keep collecting.

There is a great chance that your game worn item card was either not actually worn in a game or even by that player.

There is a good chance that autos from people are signed by friends/family/managers

there is no way to know if a card is pack pulled or sheet cut or was held back for redemption/replacement.

Face it, there is no way to know if any card from that era that is on ebay right now is pack pulled or sheet cut. If ken can cut to specifications, how many other people can? And does it make a difference if ken cut it and sells it or if jose from fleer cuts it and then it sits on a shelf and eventually makes it's way to the market as a replacement.

We all put a lot of faith into companies/people that we never see. We are all going to have to adjust our though process when it comes to collecting.

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Old 09-14-2013, 02:06 AM   #38 (permalink)
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how can you say trimming is worse???? You lost all creditability with this- 'if bgs can't tell, than neither can i'.. You can't be that gullible? If you agree that the prices will decrease, how is it good for the hobby? These cards didn't come from a pack and you can't defend that cutting up an exquisite sheet is different... If you had a sheet of just gu patch cards you could buy a random player's gu jersey and cut it up into the card and make every card 6/15... It would all be the same to anyone but yet to you that's different than duplicating an jordan insert since it's in a bgs case... I'm glad this was brought up because these 5k jordan inserts needs to be understood, while it keeps feeding the scammers trying to make a buck
yea, sorry this isn't anywhere near what is going on here???

We are talking about a factory made card that was cut at a different location than the usual. You are talking about buying a card, cut up fake jerseys and then falsely numbering cards.

That was the most horrendous comparison i have ever heard, except for the guy who was trying to compare it to rape.

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Old 09-14-2013, 02:10 AM   #39 (permalink)
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yea, sorry this isn't anywhere near what is going on here???

We are talking about a factory made card that was cut at a different location than the usual. You are talking about buying a card, cut up fake jerseys and then falsely numbering cards.

That was the most horrendous comparison i have ever heard, except for the guy who was trying to compare it to rape.
factory made card yes, but youre saying cut at a different location like its nothing. this is a 15 year old set, by now, these were not intended to be cut and sold as pack pulled cards. the manufacturer did not cut them and pack them out. this is no different then, say, someone buying out fleer's printing press and plates, making cards, and selling them off as originals.
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Old 09-14-2013, 02:22 AM   #40 (permalink)
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yea, sorry this isn't anywhere near what is going on here???

We are talking about a factory made card that was cut at a different location than the usual. You are talking about buying a card, cut up fake jerseys and then falsely numbering cards.

That was the most horrendous comparison i have ever heard, except for the guy who was trying to compare it to rape.
We're on the same page man. I always appreciate people's opinions that differ from my own but I don't understand them at all on this argument. It seems that many people here legitimately think that faking autographs, changing patches, and altering cards is better than cutting cards from a sheet. I guess I'll just never understand that logic.
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Old 09-14-2013, 02:28 AM   #41 (permalink)
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It's a shame that something like this cannot be detected by a company like Beckett. It will just open the door for others to do this. To be honest I have never had any thoughts of this happening until reading these latest posts. Now It only makes me weary about anything I buy and anything I've bought over the years.

I have almost always purchased graded cards for the sole reason of knowing what i buy is legit. Now I cannot be so sure and it really makes me consider not wanting to collect anymore.
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Old 09-14-2013, 02:33 AM   #42 (permalink)
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It's a shame that something like this cannot be detected by a company like Beckett. It will just open the door for others to do this. To be honest I have never had any thoughts of this happening until reading these latest posts. Now It only makes me weary about anything I buy and anything I've bought over the years.

I have almost always purchased graded cards for the sole reason of knowing what i buy is legit. Now I cannot be so sure and it really makes me consider not wanting to collect anymore.
unfortunately for this hobby, technology will continue to get better. imagine in 100 years how easy it will be to reproduce a card to exact specs, foil color and all. if these cut cards are exact to the originals, how would any grader know its not the real thing? the only way is from an honest customer saying these are not the true pack issued cards, please label them appropriately.
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Old 09-14-2013, 02:39 AM   #43 (permalink)
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It's a shame that something like this cannot be detected by a company like Beckett. It will just open the door for others to do this. To be honest I have never had any thoughts of this happening until reading these latest posts. Now It only makes me weary about anything I buy and anything I've bought over the years.

I have almost always purchased graded cards for the sole reason of knowing what i buy is legit. Now I cannot be so sure and it really makes me consider not wanting to collect anymore.
He claimed they knew about it which I highly doubt.

When they do slab cards like this, they will state so in the label like they did here.... http://item.mobileweb.ebay.com/viewi...d=200955979512

So he's full of crap right there. Not like I believed him anyway... Because he's done more than just this. So far I've heard from customers that he's colored cards with marker to make them appear it better condition, he's messed around with vintage packs, and he sold vintage sets in bad condition not mentioned in the description, then received the set back only to send it back to the buyer again, bug only in different holders smh

So yeah, I will side with Beckett on this and not take his word for it. He was hoping they would bd fooled... And they were! But he's the deceiver in all of this.

This gets me worried also.... Bug I will not let guys like this ruin this great hobby for me. It just teaches us to be very careful, but shouldn't have to spoil it for us.
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Old 09-14-2013, 02:55 AM   #44 (permalink)
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He claimed they knew about it which I highly doubt.

When they do slab cards like this, they will state so in the label like they did here.... http://item.mobileweb.ebay.com/viewi...d=200955979512

So he's full of crap right there. Not like I believed him anyway... Because he's done more than just this. So far I've heard from customers that he's colored cards with marker to make them appear it better condition, he's messed around with vintage packs, and he sold vintage sets in bad condition not mentioned in the description, then received the set back only to send it back to the buyer again, bug only in different holders smh

So yeah, I will side with Beckett on this and not take his word for it. He was hoping they would bd fooled... And they were! But he's the deceiver in all of this.

This gets me worried also.... Bug I will not let guys like this ruin this great hobby for me. It just teaches us to be very careful, but shouldn't have to spoil it for us.
"Deceiver"? Again, I usually agree with you, but remember, when asked what he was doing with the sheet, he told the whole world he was cutting it, grading it and selling the cards. I do not know this guy, and I have not ever dealt with him, but he doesn't sound like a "deceiver"
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Old 09-14-2013, 03:21 AM   #45 (permalink)
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"Deceiver"? Again, I usually agree with you, but remember, when asked what he was doing with the sheet, he told the whole world he was cutting it, grading it and selling the cards. I do not know this guy, and I have not ever dealt with him, but he doesn't sound like a "deceiver"
Lol how many uncut sheets are you sitting lmao .

This guy is lower than the low , he did not disclose on his ebay sales he sold them as the real deal , if that's not deception I don't know what is ?

Ken was pming me last night he thinks he is sitting 1billion dollars worth of property , my response was a person that has that portfolio would not lower themselves by ripping people off .

The guy is a comedian as well as a criminal.
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Old 09-14-2013, 03:41 AM   #46 (permalink)
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JOHNJOHNNY - way to blow what I posted out of proportion..... 'Were talking about a factory made card being made at a different location than the usual'.... you said it for me, the card wasn't made at the factory... I'm talking about buying uncut sheets and getting the materials necessary to make it at close to the real deal as possible... did you really just bring up rape?.... you have no counter point because duplicating a card that's already been made is a counterfeit.... PERIOD! Anyone who sells them without saying anything... SCAM ARTIST!

Last edited by bayzhead; 09-14-2013 at 03:44 AM.
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Old 09-14-2013, 03:50 AM   #47 (permalink)
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Why was this moved to member feedback? Do you hate the hobby?
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Old 09-14-2013, 03:50 AM   #48 (permalink)
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We're on the same page man. I always appreciate people's opinions that differ from my own but I don't understand them at all on this argument. It seems that many people here legitimately think that faking autographs, changing patches, and altering cards is better than cutting cards from a sheet. I guess I'll just never understand that logic.
Where did anyone say that we should fake autographs???? You're bringing up a situation that would cause more disturbance than this counterfeit BS while trying to cover a trail.... I don't understand how you think you can take an uncut sheet from the 1990's and make the exact same card in 2013 and sell it as an original just because they had left over uncut sheets... just saying
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Old 09-14-2013, 04:09 AM   #49 (permalink)
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it's a shame that something like this cannot be detected by a company like beckett. It will just open the door for others to do this. To be honest i have never had any thoughts of this happening until reading these latest posts. Now it only makes me weary about anything i buy and anything i've bought over the years.

I have almost always purchased graded cards for the sole reason of knowing what i buy is legit. Now i cannot be so sure and it really makes me consider not wanting to collect anymore.
how is beckett suspose to magically know that a card was cut from the fleer machine versus another cutting machine. If the specifications are perfect, how are they suppose to know?
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Old 09-14-2013, 04:15 AM   #50 (permalink)
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johnjohnny - way to blow what i posted out of proportion..... 'were talking about a factory made card being made at a different location than the usual'.... You said it for me, the card wasn't made at the factory... I'm talking about buying uncut sheets and getting the materials necessary to make it at close to the real deal as possible... Did you really just bring up rape?.... You have no counter point because duplicating a card that's already been made is a counterfeit.... Period! Anyone who sells them without saying anything... Scam artist!
That was the most horrendous comparison i have ever heard, except for the guy who was trying to compare it to rape.

no i didn't bring up rape, can you read (it may have been in the original thread as this is an off shoot of that thread), another poster did. Lol

the card is not counterfeit?? They card was made by fleer to be packed out, they just never got around to cutting it or were going to cut it at a later date??

Ken didn't buy the stuff and magically make the card, it was made by fleer? He didn't buy blank sheets and then dye the card and print on it and manufacture the cards???

He took a card that was already made by the manufacturer and cut it at a different location than the company would use.

I never stated i agreed with him, all i did was call your moronic comparison, silly. You brought up faking patches and fake autos.

Last edited by JOHNJOHNNY; 09-14-2013 at 04:19 AM.
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