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Old 09-14-2013, 04:16 AM   #51 (permalink)
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how can you say trimming is worse???? You lost all creditability with this- 'if bgs can't tell, than neither can i'.. You can't be that gullible? If you agree that the prices will decrease, how is it good for the hobby? These cards didn't come from a pack and you can't defend that cutting up an exquisite sheet is different... if you had a sheet of just gu patch cards you could buy a random player's gu jersey and cut it up into the card and make every card 6/15... It would all be the same to anyone but yet to you that's different than duplicating an jordan insert since it's in a bgs case... I'm glad this was brought up because these 5k jordan inserts needs to be understood, while it keeps feeding the scammers trying to make a buck
you brought up faking patches, AND NUMBERING etc
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Old 09-14-2013, 04:17 AM   #52 (permalink)
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so areyou okwith exquisite number pieces uncut sheet. Cutting them up. Putting up patches and autos and getting slabbed to sell it right?
this guy brought up fake autos and patches
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Old 09-14-2013, 04:39 AM   #53 (permalink)
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If a guy takes home a sheet of 100 dollar bills that was made at the treasury, and he cuts them himself instead of the machine at the treasurey, are the bills real or fake?

They were made at the treasury, meant to be either put into circulation at a later point or be a replacement for bad $100 bills. Are they not real bills anymore and not worth $100?

If you got one of those bills would you consider it fake? Would you say it has less value than any other $100 bill. Would you let the person that you are going to give the bill to --know that it wasn't cut at the treasury?
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Old 09-14-2013, 04:58 AM   #54 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by JOHNJOHNNY View Post
If a guy takes home a sheet of 100 dollar bills that was made at the treasury, and he cuts them himself instead of the machine at the treasurey, are the bills real or fake?

They were made at the treasury, meant to be either put into circulation at a later point or be a replacement for bad $100 bills. Are they not real bills anymore and not worth $100?

If you got one of those bills would you consider it fake? Would you say it has less value than any other $100 bill. Would you let the person that you are going to give the bill to --know that it wasn't cut at the treasury?
Completely not the same given part of the rarity in cards lies in them being opened at stated pack odds in a lottery fashion.
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Old 09-14-2013, 06:21 AM   #55 (permalink)
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completely not the same given part of the rarity in cards lies in them being opened at stated pack odds in a lottery fashion.
no it is the same-- as dollars being printed are printed in only certain amounts as to not devalue the currency. Otherwise why not print 7,000,000,000,000,000 $100 bills and give them to everyone, we'd all be rich!!!!

DID YOU KNOW ZIMBABWE HAD A $10,000,000 NOTE

http://johnny-ong.blogspot.com/2008/...lars-note.html

Cards are on a smaller scale of course but the basic point is, does the machine it is cut on determine wether a card or a $100 bill is real?

Also pleanty of cards are made to not put in packs-- replacement cards, cards that were never fulfilled by one player so you give out another player, the ud employee christmas cards, etc.

The fact of the matter is, unless a card is numbered, you have no idea how many were put into the market/supposedly made, stated odds are nice but mean nothing. Also how many jumbalya cards are still siting in boxes on shelves? Just because there is only 45 of them this minute does not mean that there will only ever be 45. This will flucuate as more boxes are eventually opened and more are found. These sheets were printed and were meant to eventually go out to the public as either replacement for damage or replacements for other cards that didn't get made.

howmany times have people received unnumbered cards for replacemnts? Does these cards not really count since they were not put into packs in a random lottery fashion. Everythime someone receives one of those, doesn't it mess up the market by adding more than the supposed stated odds? Do we need to tell future buyers that these were not pack pulled and were received as replacements, so there are now more cards out than stated by odds?

Last edited by JOHNJOHNNY; 09-14-2013 at 06:35 AM.
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Old 09-14-2013, 06:31 AM   #56 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by JOHNJOHNNY View Post
If a guy takes home a sheet of 100 dollar bills that was made at the treasury, and he cuts them himself instead of the machine at the treasurey, are the bills real or fake?

They were made at the treasury, meant to be either put into circulation at a later point or be a replacement for bad $100 bills. Are they not real bills anymore and not worth $100?

If you got one of those bills would you consider it fake? Would you say it has less value than any other $100 bill. Would you let the person that you are going to give the bill to --know that it wasn't cut at the treasury?
Dude what's Your purpose ?

The answer to your stupid question is you would be spending some time in the slot for a federal offence of distributing counterfeit money, luckily for ken this hobby is not regulated .

Are you trying to derail a thread where clearly this guy is scamming the system thinking he is smarter than the rest ?

if you think cutting up sheets , selling with out disclosure and pretending to be fleer is right then dude deactivate your accounts and move on as you have no place amongst other collectors and this hobby .

I honestly feel for collectors of this set and MJ collectors that pay good money for these cards as clearly there are counterfeit copies floating around because of a greedy,unethical,money hungry person.

If I was collecting this set or MJ I would be seriously pissed.
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Old 09-14-2013, 06:38 AM   #57 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by JOHNJOHNNY View Post
no it is the same-- as dollars being printed are printed in only certain amounts as to not devalue the currency. Otherwise why not print 7,000,000,000,000,000 $100 bills and give them to everyone, we'd all be rich!!!!

DID YOU KNOW ZIMBABWE HAD A $10,000,000 NOTE

Life's Happenings: Zimbabwe's 10,000,000 dollars note

Cards are on a smaller scale of course but the basic point is, does the machine it is cut on determine wether a card or a $100 bill is real?

Also pleanty of cards are made to not put in packs-- replacement cards, cards that were never fulfilled by one player so you give out another player, the ud employee christmas cards, etc.

The fact of the matter is, unless a card is numbered, you have no idea how many were put into the market/supposedly made, stated odds are nice but mean nothing. Also how many jumbalya cards are still siting in boxes on shelves? Just because there is only 45 of them this minute does not mean that there will only ever be 45. This will flucuate as more boxes are eventually opened and more are found. These sheets were printed and were meant to eventually go out to the public as either replacement for damage or replacements for other cards that didn't get made.
well the US govt pretty much did print 700000000000000 $100 bills. and handed it out like candy. we wouldn't be rich, we'd have $100 each which after inflation would really be worth about $35 in real time money.

back to the subject at hand. In my mind this is just a custom card now. It came from an uncut sheet which was never intended for public/retail release. It probably should have been destroyed but wasn't. Who knows what happened w/fleer at the end.

check out the baseball and football sections about the uncut non/serial/non auto supers which just happened to have gotten graded and some have IP autos and are being sold as the only one.

maybe you need to purchase a card like these for a hefty sum under the pretense they were pack pulled or made exactly for the product, then find out what they really are and then know you could have probably gotten in for 1/4th of the price.

There is a thread over in baseball about a destroyed superfractor auto which was received in the mail from topps. one idea the customer service guy said was they might be able to make a new one. some people are for it and some are against since that really means these companies can and will do anything they want which is just going to devalue everything put out.

Take a look at this auction:
2010 Bowman Chrome Auto Refractor Uncut Sheet Manny Machado Matt Harvey RC 1 1 | eBay

just think that most of these guys were never actually in the product. these are not autographed or serial numbered. All it takes is one person like kevin to get this, cut them up, get them signed and graded and pass them off as the real mccoy. that sheet cut up could easily bring in 2-3k after all is said and done.

from reading some of your posts in the multiple threads I'm not sure if you have gone all murke on us and are just playing a game or if you really cannot see these for what they are and what kevin is actually doing to people.

If he would just put custom or from a cut sheet we would probably be all good.

The money he is making for his kids might as well be drug money or mafia money (just think breaking bad)
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Old 09-14-2013, 08:01 AM   #58 (permalink)
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Kencope is a great member that I have dealt with many times over the years on beckett scf and on BO. just completed a deal two weeks ago In Flawless fashion just my two cents nothing more.
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Old 09-14-2013, 08:12 AM   #59 (permalink)
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He's already posted several times in the other thread (the Jordan PMG thread). He never once lied about it.

Gio, the part in blue is ridiculous. He didnt fool BGS. BGS openly admits they grade cards cut from cut sheets. He told them they were from a cut sheet. If he's willing to be immediately open about cutting cards from a cut sheet, why would he lie about that?

This thread is more than unnecessary. Ken has made dozens of posts in the other thread explaining himself and his logic. You made a post claiming you made some ultimate discovery and then muddied the water with your own opinions as facts.

I don't really have a horse in this race, I am actually intrigued by the mature, adult debate that took place in the original thread. On one hand I think it's messed up, but on the other it's not like they're counterfeit cards? Either way, I respectfully think you are just trying to stir the pot....especially considering your track record with dislike for 90's inserts.
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Old 09-14-2013, 08:28 AM   #60 (permalink)
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Here comes another comparison...

Its the same reason why pack pulled autos sell for more than IP autos. I mean its the same auto right?

Maybe that wasnt a good one.

I also think its funny the people who use the "ken and I made a deal before and it went smooth so he must be a good guy" I made a deal with Haiku and it went smooth, however is that relevant to his scam? Nope. Just like your deals are not relevant to putting every jambaylaya in question and changing the scarcity of the card.

Dude is a turd
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Old 09-14-2013, 09:04 AM   #61 (permalink)
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dude what's your purpose ?

The answer to your stupid question is you would be spending some time in the slot for a federal offence of distributing counterfeit money, luckily for ken this hobby is not regulated .

Are you trying to derail a thread where clearly this guy is scamming the system thinking he is smarter than the rest ?

If you think cutting up sheets , selling with out disclosure and pretending to be fleer is right then dude deactivate your accounts and move on as you have no place amongst other collectors and this hobby .

I honestly feel for collectors of this set and mj collectors that pay good money for these cards as clearly there are counterfeit copies floating around because of a greedy,unethical,money hungry person.

If i was collecting this set or mj i would be seriously pissed.
dude, like dude, well dude, i mean dude.

Like take a chill pill dude.
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Old 09-14-2013, 09:08 AM   #62 (permalink)
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maybe you need to purchase a card like these for a hefty sum under the pretense they were pack pulled or made exactly for the product, then find out what they really are and then know you could have probably gotten in for 1/4th of the price.

.

The money he is making for his kids might as well be drug money or mafia money (just think breaking bad)
fact of the mater is, i would never know if i'm buying a cut one, just as you never know if any of the cards you buy from that era are cut cards. Sellers are not lining up to tell people that they might be cut, so the entire hobby will go on like nothing happened.

The next jordan to pop up will still sell high because everyone will think the cards are legit.
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Old 09-14-2013, 09:11 AM   #63 (permalink)
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dude what's your purpose ?

The answer to your stupid question is you would be spending some time in the slot for a federal offence of distributing counterfeit money, luckily for ken this hobby is not regulated .

Are you trying to derail a thread where clearly this guy is scamming the system thinking he is smarter than the rest ?

If you think cutting up sheets , selling with out disclosure and pretending to be fleer is right then dude deactivate your accounts and move on as you have no place amongst other collectors and this hobby .

I honestly feel for collectors of this set and mj collectors that pay good money for these cards as clearly there are counterfeit copies floating around because of a greedy,unethical,money hungry person.

If i was collecting this set or mj i would be seriously pissed.
I GUESS YOU ARE IN TO MUCH OF A RAGE TO READ BETWEEN THE LINES. I DIDN'T ASK IF IT WAS ILLEGAL, I ASKED IF THE 100 BILL THAT IS NOW IN CIRCULATION IS WORTH ANY LES THAN $100. NO IT IS NOT BECAUSE YOU HAVE NO IDEA WHERE IT WAS CUT AND NEITHER DOES ANYONE ELSE

i never said i agreed with what ken did. So take your tampon out and relax young lady. I just think it is funny the lenghts people are going to to say this is the most horrible thing ever. We accept all sorts of shady things in this hobby, and a perfect card produced by fleer but cut on a different machine is the least of this hobbies worries.

Why wouldyou be seriouslt pissed, you could never tell if the one you have is real or not. Do you have cards from fleer during that time? Are you sure they are legit?

the card is now off into never never land and in 3 more days no one will give a shite. and the next time one comes up not a single person is gonna not bid on it because it may be a cut from a sheet card.

Last edited by JOHNJOHNNY; 09-14-2013 at 09:15 AM.
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Old 09-14-2013, 09:25 AM   #64 (permalink)
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dude, like dude, well dude, i mean dude.

Like take a chill pill dude.
Already have dude!!!!
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Old 09-14-2013, 09:27 AM   #65 (permalink)
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already have dude!!!!
cool, you were raging out like you just found out there was a jordan jambalaya cut from an uncut sheet!!???


Too soon?
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Old 09-14-2013, 09:27 AM   #66 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by JOHNJOHNNY View Post
I GUESS YOU ARE IN TO MUCH OF A RAGE TO READ BETWEEN THE LINES. I DIDN'T ASK IF IT WAS ILLEGAL, I ASKED IF THE 100 BILL THAT IS NOW IN CIRCULATION IS WORTH ANY LES THAN $100. NO IT IS NOT BECAUSE YOU HAVE NO IDEA WHERE IT WAS CUT AND NEITHER DOES ANYONE ELSE

i never said i agreed with what ken did. So take your tampon out and relax young lady. I just think it is funny the lenghts people are going to to say this is the most horrible thing ever. We accept all sorts of shady things in this hobby, and a perfect card produced by fleer but cut on a different machine is the least of this hobbies worries.

Why wouldyou be seriouslt pissed, you could never tell if the one you have is real or not. Do you have cards from fleer during that time? Are you sure they are legit?

the card is now off into never never land and in 3 more days no one will give a shite. and the next time one comes up not a single person is gonna not bid on it because it may be a cut from a sheet card.
Any more scenarios you want throw out Johnny boy??
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Old 09-14-2013, 09:32 AM   #67 (permalink)
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cool, you were raging out like you just found out there was a jordan jambalaya cut from an uncut sheet!!???


Too soon?
You not taking your meds again Johnny boy tsk tsk
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Old 09-14-2013, 09:40 AM   #68 (permalink)
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Kencope is a great member that I have dealt with many times over the years on beckett scf and on BO. just completed a deal two weeks ago In Flawless fashion just my two cents nothing more.
Thanks for telling us this. Fun fact haiku had stellar feedback and people said the same about them before he ripped off half the place. Nothing more.
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Old 09-14-2013, 10:08 AM   #69 (permalink)
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the easy clarity in this is that if ken thought they were the same and no different then he should include that information in his eBay listings and let the buyer decide. he claims he has.not hidden the truth which here he hasn't. he should include all information in his listings.

someone mentioned the finest test proofs. good example because people list those as test proofs and are up front with the information.

i feel like anyone saying there is no difference are just defending the seller out of loyalty. could be wrong though.
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Old 09-14-2013, 10:36 AM   #70 (permalink)
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interesting read of the various threads

didnt find where the uncut sheets came from as i think those are neat to have .. probably cheaper than the jambas

also in the world of nonsport, upper deck just released marvel's fleer retro w jamba chase cards ... anyone know if uncut sheets exist for that?
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Old 09-14-2013, 11:15 AM   #71 (permalink)
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interesting read of the various threads

didnt find where the uncut sheets came from as i think those are neat to have .. Probably cheaper than the jambas

also in the world of nonsport, upper deck just released marvel's fleer retro w jamba chase cards ... Anyone know if uncut sheets exist for that?
how do you like the marvel retro, i've been thinking of picking up some.
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Old 09-14-2013, 11:38 AM   #72 (permalink)
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the easy clarity in this is that if ken thought they were the same and no different then he should include that information in his eBay listings and let the buyer decide. he claims he has.not hidden the truth which here he hasn't. he should include all information in his listings.

someone mentioned the finest test proofs. good example because people list those as test proofs and are up front with the information.

i feel like anyone saying there is no difference are just defending the seller out of loyalty. could be wrong though.
If he really didnt realize he was doing anyhong wrong and think the uncut version is the same, he should state in his auctions which version he have. But he's not going to do that now is he? And even states the pack odds on some of his listing which is not true for uncut sheet. And yea I think uncut sheets are like $2k-2.5k for all the players and just selling a jordan will get most of the money back. And looked like he had multiple copies.
And when u are cutting yourself. U can make sure they are good condition unlike pack pulled ones. I see he got really good centering/corner/surface grades, just messed up I guess on the edges. Ok sure after a while he can perfect it and make nothing but 9.5 cards
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Old 09-14-2013, 11:47 AM   #73 (permalink)
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If he really didnt realize he was doing anyhong wrong and think the uncut version is the same, he should state in his auctions which version he have. But he's not going to do that now is he? And even states the pack odds on some of his listing which is not true for uncut sheet. And yea I think uncut sheets are like $2k-2.5k for all the players and just selling a jordan will get most of the money back. And looked like he had multiple copies.
And when u are cutting yourself. U can make sure they are good condition unlike pack pulled ones. I see he got really good centering/corner/surface grades, just messed up I guess on the edges. Ok sure after a while he can perfect it and make nothing but 9.5 cards
I thought BGS didn't grade altered cards? If they suspect a card was trimmed or colored, don't they send it back? If they do, how they heck could they allow someone to send in a cut up sheet of cards and pass it off as pack pulled or not label it as a special card?
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Old 09-14-2013, 11:48 AM   #74 (permalink)
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Thanks for telling us this. Fun fact haiku had stellar feedback and people said the same about them before he ripped off half the place. Nothing more.
I thought the same thing.

And on that note, I'd like to say "Hi,ken".
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Old 09-14-2013, 11:57 AM   #75 (permalink)
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I thought BGS didn't grade altered cards? If they suspect a card was trimmed or colored, don't they send it back? If they do, how they heck could they allow someone to send in a cut up sheet of cards and pass it off as pack pulled or not label it as a special card?
he took it to a professional machine shop and cut it to the proper specifications.

How does Beckett know if a card was cut on a fleer machine or another professional cutting machine.

Fleer didn't have special prototype cutting machines that no one else had.
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